Iran may start a war with Israel

[Red Dawn]

The can go back where they came from.

Don't you have more pressing concerns in your own backyard? You Paks make stabbing and buggering each other in the back look like a national sport.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Let us go back to the tread title, namely, " Iran may start a war with Israel "

When what we are talking about is a Israeli blockade of Gaza with dubious legitimacy.

Yet if the Iranian Nary or any other Navy wants to challenge the Israeli blockade of Gaza, and protects merchants ships being boarded in international waters, which nation is the aggressor, assuming its Iran as the Navy escorting and Israel is the blockading Navy.

Maybe we should relabel this thread as Israel wants to start a war with Iran.

Or maybe we should say the side that SHOOTS first is the side that is starting the war as a better testable hypothesis.

Or may be we should all realize that Iran is the worse case scenario escorting Navy, and to prevent it coming to violence, regardless of whose Navy challenges the Gaza blockade, the UN better get off its dead butts, and rule definitively, one way or the other on the Gaza blockade legitimacy issue yesterday.

Operating on the assumption that Iran will actually have the capability of getting a Naval ship into the Med:

1) Iran is coming to Israeli waters - therefore she becomes the agressor and is looking for trouble.

2) The blockade is a legal one at the present time. no one has shown that it is legally illegitament other than those that do not like it being there. For three years, not one country said anything about it; even the Arab nations or the UN.

3) Ships attempting to run the blockade are subject to be boarded in international waters via maritime law to check for contraband.

4) Ships can be boarded in national waters via maritime law for any reason.

5) Blockade runners can be intercepted; shot at and sunk if they do not obey commands.

 

[K1052]

The can go back where they came from.

The funny thing is that the Muslim nations who lost that land to Israel don't want it back now that it's infested with radicals who would threaten their own governments.

 

[nageov3t]

The can go back where they came from.

so... they can go back to Israel?

 

[Lemon law]

The funny thing is that the Muslim nations who lost that land to Israel don't want it back now that it's infested with radicals who would threaten their own governments.

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A Very distorted statement there that is both largely factually incorrect, and where it has some basis in fact, you totally distort the real reasons.

1. In terms of factually incorrect, Egypt wanted back the lands Israeli seized in the 1967&73 wars, even though it was largely the can't grow a weed Sinai desert. And even Egypt may have have gotten the land back had Uncle Sucker not bribed both Israel and Egypt into the deal. Lebanon and especially Syria very much want land Israel seized from them in the same 1967&73 wars. And as a proof of how badly they wanted it, Syria signed onto the Condi Rice brokered Annapolis peace conference that flopped for other reasons. But in many ways, the Syrian land Israel still retains in the Golan heights and Shaba farms area are not longer critical for Israeli military security, but both sides want them as a water rich natural resource, made very important in a semi arid area.

2. Where you are semi factually correct, we are mainly talking about the formerly Egyptian owned Gaza strip and the Jordanian owned West Bank that have become damaged goods for both nations and also a damned if we do and damned if we don't horns of a dilemma sticking point. But when Israel, in 1948, expelled those Palestinians from the former 1948 borders of Israel, the Palestinians did not just poof evaporate, they fled to the West Bank and Gaza. On one hand, by Arab charity traditions, they could not deny them refuge, but they did not want a pile of Penny less Palestinian refugees either. And to this very day, every Arab nation's position is, its not an Arab responsibility to take them in, and since the Palestinian people came from and then were driven out of the 1948 borders of Israel, the Palestinian problem is a 100% Israeli RESPONSIBILITY. And then both Egypt and Jordon, following that same logical reasoning, washed their hands of the problem by ceding their claims to both Gaza and the West Bank. But in ceding their claims, it does not make it Israeli owned land, its just more land to be possibly set aside to form a possible future Palestinian State. A peace process long stalled.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Does Egypt want Gaza back. Have they expressed and desire?

The same goes for Jordan. Did they ever ask for the West Bank back from Israel.
After Black September, do you think that they would want it?

Why would Israel worry back in '48 about the Palestinian refugees when they were caused by the Arab armies attacking and being supported by the Palestinian Arabs.

The Arabs and Palestinians created their problem; yet you expect Israel to fix it. What about the responsibility of the Arab nations that triggered this mess over and over again.

Some country has to control the lands - even if no one wants it. If the Arabs wanted the lands to be used in a given way; then why did they turn them over to Israel?
If it is Israel's problem, then let Israel take care of the problem. Leave the world out of it. If the world wants to stick their noses into it, then they need to come up with a solution; not gripes.

What land does Israel have that was taken from Lebanon?

w/ respect to Syria; the Golan Heights has a strategic military value - it has nothing to do with the Palestinian problem; only the Israeli problem.

Maybe if Syria was receptive to have Israel as a peace partner; they would get back the Golan. But Iran would not like/tolerate that.

 

[K1052]

^

I was talking about real countries. Mainly Jordan and Egypt.

If the Israel getting wiped off the map thing happened neither one would even attempt to assert control of the lands they once owned. If anything they'd be working extra hard to keep the Palestinians on their side of the border.

 

[Lemon law]

Does Egypt want Gaza back. Have they expressed and desire?

The same goes for Jordan. Did they ever ask for the West Bank back from Israel.
After Black september, do you think that they would want it?

Why would Israel worry back in '48 about the Palestinian refugees when they were caused by the Arab armies attacking and being supported by the Palestinian Arabs.

The Arabs and Palestinians created their problem; yet you expect Israel to fix it. What about the responsibility of the Arab nations that triggered this mess over and over again.

Some couintry has to control the lands - even if no one wants it. If the Arabs wanted the lands to be used in a given way; then why did they turn them over to Israel?

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Totally wrong Common Courtesy on all your five statements you made. If you read my above post, it explains exactly why you are wrong five out of five times. But gotta say, you are on a roll here, Mr Consistency, and when you make wrong assumptions, its again explains why garbage in gets nothing but garbage out on your part.

But another factoid to point, Arab Charities have not washed their hands of the Palestinians, Saudi Arabia all by itself funds 50% of the food aid Israel blocks in Gaza.
Iran another 12%, and Israel contributes little or nothing.

And in the speculation department, it may be why, as the Gaza blockage spotlights the problem, it becomes well past time to end Israeli administration of the West Bank and Gaza, and get some other entity in control. While some final just mid-east peace solution is finalized. If nothing else, the international community mistakenly trusted Israel to administer Lebanon after its civil war, and Israel got about a F- in doing that. Israel could have made a friend out of Lebanon and instead its hated far more than it was before.

 

[EagleKeeper]

^

I was talking about real countries. Mainly Jordan and Egypt.

If the Israel getting wiped off the map thing happened neither one would even attempt to assert control of the lands they once owned. If anything they'd be working extra hard to keep the Palestinians on their side of the border.

Neither want the Palestinians.

and without massive feel good aid; the Palestinians will crumble. within gaza and previously; they have shown that they are good at sucking off the teats of others. Maybe it is their choice of leadership that encourages such dependancy?

 

[Freshgeardude]

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A Very distorted statement there that is both largely factually incorrect, and where it has some basis in fact, you totally distort the real reasons.

1. In terms of factually incorrect, Egypt wanted back the lands Israeli seized in the 1967&73 wars, even though it was largely the can't grow a weed Sinai desert. And even Egypt may have have gotten the land back had Uncle Sucker not bribed both Israel and Egypt into the deal. Lebanon and especially Syria very much want land Israel seized from them in the same 1967&73 wars. And as a proof of how badly they wanted it, Syria signed onto the Condi Rice brokered Annapolis peace conference that flopped for other reasons. But in many ways, the Syrian land Israel still retains in the Golan heights and Shaba farms area are not longer critical for Israeli military security, but both sides want them as a water rich natural resource, made very important in a semi arid area.


No. You are wrong. When the Israeli country was still a group of settlements until 1967, the golan heights was used as a high ground for syrians to fire artillery into israeli settlements. Israel took over the golan in 1967 to PROTECT itself.

2. Where you are semi factually correct, we are mainly talking about the formerly Egyptian owned Gaza strip and the Jordanian owned West Bank that have become damaged goods for both nations and also a damned if we do and damned if we don't horns of a dilemma sticking point. But when Israel, in 1948, expelled those Palestinians from the former 1948 borders of Israel, the Palestinians did not just poof evaporate, they fled to the West Bank and Gaza. On one hand, by Arab charity traditions, they could not deny them refuge, but they did not want a pile of Penny less Palestinian refugees either. And to this very day, every Arab nation's position is, its not an Arab responsibility to take them in, and since the Palestinian people came from and then were driven out of the 1948 borders of Israel, the Palestinian problem is a 100% Israeli RESPONSIBILITY. And then both Egypt and Jordon, following that same logical reasoning, washed their hands of the problem by ceding their claims to both Gaza and the West Bank. But in ceding their claims, it does not make it Israeli owned land, its just more land to be possibly set aside to form a possible future Palestinian State. A peace process long stalled.


Egypt did not get pressured into any treaty with israel retard. Egypt had lost the wars and didnt want to lose anymore, so they asked israel for peace in return of the sinai, then, jimmy carter came along and "brokered" the agreement which has worked today. ISRAEL offered gaza back to the egyptians, but they did not want the land.

Jordan had lost the wars and didnt want any more fights so they made a simple peace with israel, and left the west bank for itself.

Lets look at a MAP

Israel as we all should know is in BLUE..... actually that is being generous. thats INCLUDING gaza AND the west bank


The arab world could EASILY absorb their muslim "brethren" any day of a generation.

They could all move tomorrow and spread through out all of those countries and their economies would not even see a hiccup.


if they really cared for their brothers, they would ACTUALLY help them instead of keeping them in there.


EGYPT had a blockade on gaza, up until last monday.

Jordan blocks migration from the west bank.


how could these countries complain about israel treating their people bad if they dont even help them.

 

[Lemon law]

Fresh Gear Dude, if you want to see it from only your point of view, you will come to the wrong conclusions every time.

But lets just take these three points you made, "The arab world could EASILY absorb their muslim "brethren" any day of a generation.

They could all move tomorrow and spread through out all of those countries and their economies would not even see a hiccup.


if they really cared for their brothers, they would ACTUALLY help them instead of keeping them in there.
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Just what Israel wants, to have the Arabs take Israeli's Palestinian responsibility off their hands. Your other problem with that contention is that no one, no one, in the world are seriously talking about your option. As I have said before, only two ways forward, either use lands captured in the 1967&73 wars and form a viable Palestinian State, or have Israel assimilate the Palestinian people with full voting rights.

But as Israel endless stalls, it is the Arabs and the international community who are funding food and economic resources to keep the Palestinians in limbo meanwhile. All Israel is doing is asserting a right to starve Gaza when they don't like their democratically elected quasi Government.

 

[Noobtastic]

When what we are talking about is a Israeli blockade of Gaza with dubious legitimacy.

The blockade is perfectly legal.

Gaza is a declared enemy of Israel - supported by more than 8,000 rockets launched at Israeli civilians.

Yet Palestinians cling to victimhood when Israel, Egypt, and Cyprus when Israel imposes a blockade to prevent the country from arming itself with more rockets and weapons.

We blocked Germany and Japan with full international backing. We imposed a naval blockade on Cuba after the Soviets tried to deliver missiles capable of hitting US cities.

And now Israel is doing the exact same thing we did - place a naval blockade on a state to prevent it from acquiring weaponry - and trolls like LL continue to dispute its legitimacy.

Israel has intercepted dozens of ships loaded with weapons, so as Cyprus and Egypt.

What country would tolerate this? Tell me LL? Name me one in history.

The blockade is the most passive form of self-defense. Israel could up-root Hamas in a physical confrontation, as the expense of Gaza's "civilians" and adopt our policies in Iraq and Afghanistan, though I'm sure it would still be condemned viciously for that.

Remember LL - all on the left claim the "occupation" is not only illegal but also the source of anti-Israel conflicts and criticism, so if Israel were to reduce or end the occupation entirely, this would create peace.

Land for peace - as supported by many Arabists.

Well, this has failed. Palestinians have received, in the least, partial concessions and land - so what would infer this would create partial peace, but instead this has fostered more war and conflict.

Israel left Lebanon and the UN promised to disarm Hezbollah, that failed in 6 years later Israel was forced into a war that killed 2,000+ Lebanese.

Israel left Gaza, hailed as an "historic" gesture by the "moderates" and Europeans, and yet how do the Palestinians respond? More rockets, kidnappings, infiltrations, etc.

If Israel were to end the blockade, Gaza would simply turn into an Iranian port, Gaza would soon acquire serious weapons and Israel would be forced to go after the Palestinians again - at the cost of many thousands of lives.

But perhaps that is what you want. After all, what would you gain if there was a resolution to this conflict?

Your whole world revolves around bashing Israel.

 

[cubby1223]

Heh, maybe this is whole Israel/Gaza thing a conspiracy by the Western world to go into war with Iran! Maybe Obama wants to bomb the hell out of Tehran just doesn't want to look too "Bush-ish" so he keeps silent on these flotilla publicity stunts.

 

[irishScott]

Good. With Obama at the helm, Israel's the last country on earth with the capability and will to give Iran the curb-stomping its government needs.

 

[theeedude]

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/09/world/09iran.html?hp

Russia, Turkey and Iran Meet, Posing Test for U.S.
ISTANBUL — Leaders of Russia, Turkey and Iran convened at a security summit meeting in Istanbul on Tuesday in a display of regional power that appeared to be calculated to test the United States just one day before a scheduled American-backed debate in the United Nations Security Council on imposing tighter sanctions over Iran’s nuclear program.

Of course one can pretend it's completely unrelated to the Gaza situation, but Russia and TURKEY are meeting with Iran now. Whatever unity there was for serious sanctions seems to be crumbling. Was it worth blocking humanitarian aid to Gaza? That's for Israel to decide.

 

[nageov3t]

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/09/world/09iran.html?hp

Of course one can pretend it's completely unrelated to the Gaza situation, but Russia and TURKEY are meeting with Iran now. Whatever unity there was for serious sanctions seems to be crumbling. Was it worth blocking humanitarian aid to Gaza? That's for Israel to decide.

well, that settles it, the US will totally side with a Turkey-Iran-Russia alignment over Israel.

 

[Acanthus]

EA was right!!

The middle eastern coalition will go to war with the US! (Battlefield 2)

 

[Acanthus]

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/09/world/09iran.html?hp

Of course one can pretend it's completely unrelated to the Gaza situation, but Russia and TURKEY are meeting with Iran now. Whatever unity there was for serious sanctions seems to be crumbling. Was it worth blocking humanitarian aid to Gaza? That's for Israel to decide.

I am ignorant of the situation.

Doesn't gaza get massive amounts of aid by land? As in more per capita than anywhere else on earth?

 

[nageov3t]

I am ignorant of the situation.

Doesn't gaza get massive amounts of aid by land? As in more per capita than anywhere else on earth?

but it doesn't include chocolate, so Israel is comitting crimes against humanity.

or, more seriously, it doesn't include construction materials, which Israel argues will be used in constructing tunnels that Hamas could use to smuggle in heavy weaponry and Hamas argues is needed in rebuilding crap.

 

[Noobtastic]

I am ignorant of the situation.

Doesn't gaza get massive amounts of aid by land? As in more per capita than anywhere else on earth?

the palestinians in general receive more aid per capita than anywhere else.

They have their own special "refugee" organization that has its own rules and doesn't have to follow standard refugee guide-lines. The PLO receives about 2 billion in aid annually from the EU, and collects another 2 billion in foreign donations.

Hamas earns about 100 million a month in extortion and gang-related activities, on top of the 400+ million it receives annually from Iran.

Yasser Arafat was richer than all Israeli Knesset members combined.

Ironically, Yasser Arafat earned most his post-1990s money from...Israel.

As post of Oslo 2 it was agreed between the PLO-Israel that Arafat needed "walking-around money" to control terrorism and establish a leadership capable of negotiating with Israel independently and without influence from Hamas.

The Palestinian leadership made a shit ton of money through the ministry of theft. Fatah placed prices fixes on Palestinian gas companies - fuel they received for dirt-cheap from the Israelis were then sold for an absurd prices to ordinary Palestinians, generation millions in profits.

Here is an excellent article describing just how poor the Palestinian leadership truly is:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/11/07/60minutes/main582487.shtml

 

[theeedude]

well, that settles it, the US will totally side with a Turkey-Iran-Russia alignment over Israel.

Russia is a veto wielding member of UN Security Council.
No Russia, no UN sanctions.

 

[Noobtastic]

Russia is a veto wielding member of UN Security Council.
No Russia, no UN sanctions.

Iran is already being sanctioned by the UN, tard.

 

[Freshgeardude]

Fresh Gear Dude, if you want to see it from only your point of view, you will come to the wrong conclusions every time.

But lets just take these three points you made, "The arab world could EASILY absorb their muslim "brethren" any day of a generation.

They could all move tomorrow and spread through out all of those countries and their economies would not even see a hiccup.


if they really cared for their brothers, they would ACTUALLY help them instead of keeping them in there.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just what Israel wants, to have the Arabs take Israeli's Palestinian responsibility off their hands. Your other problem with that contention is that no one, no one, in the world are seriously talking about your option. As I have said before, only two ways forward, either use lands captured in the 1967&73 wars and form a viable Palestinian State, or have Israel assimilate the Palestinian people with full voting rights.

But as Israel endless stalls, it is the Arabs and the international community who are funding food and economic resources to keep the Palestinians in limbo meanwhile. All Israel is doing is asserting a right to starve Gaza when they don't like their democratically elected quasi Government.

Lets actually look at your two "options"

option 1- give land back: Israel pulled out of gaza completely in 2006 and elections were held, hamas, a KNOWN terrorist organization came into power after killing fatah and driving them out of gaza, not much of freedom there. Ever since, rockets and mortars have fallen on Israel.

why should israel give back more protection and bargaining tool, not for an assurance of peace, but simply to get the people on the table.

All peace agreements have failed in the past, all do mainly do with Jerusalem. do you expect israel to just hand over its capital and foremost the holiest city in the jewish religion?

Option 2- assimilate: This sees as an ok solution at first glance, i agree. reason being there are thousands of arabs living peacefully in israel with full rights, the druz, beduin, etc and some even voluntarily join the army, BUT

what do you do with hamas? they dont dissapear. in their charter, it calls for the destruction of israel. rockets still fly into israel. we still have hezbollah in the north, and every day israel diverts terrorist attack attempts made on civilians. Do you honestly believe that all of these people will drop their weapons and sing kumbaya with israel?

Also, you have to remember, israel probably considers a lot of hamas figure heads as enemies of the state, for their involvement in terrorist plots. what shall we do with those people? Surely they have many followers who would get agree at their arrest, and by angry, i mean suicide bombers. Does israel just ignore the thousands of civilians who were murdered, injured, or emotionally distraught and soldiers who protected israel from these terrorists, for nothing?

I know you like to believe that suicide bombers, bus bombs, rocket attacks, mortar shellings on civilians arent terrorist acts, 99.9% of the real world would disagree with you.



You see, I am not an expert on this issue, no one on this forum can even claim to be close, but I alone can find problems with the ME and how seemingly simple solutions to the problem arent anywhere close.

 

[Lemon law]

I am ignorant of the situation.

Doesn't gaza get massive amounts of aid by land? As in more per capita than anywhere else on earth?

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In a word totally false. And especially false since the 3 year old Israeli blockade of Gaza where the previous inflow of supplies is now 20% of pre-blockade levels.

Maybe all those glossly photos of abundant food would feed your famdamily for a long while, but we must remember it has to supply 1.5 million people.

 

[theeedude]

Iran is already being sanctioned by the UN

How are those working?

, tard.

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