Interesting thought on abortion/miscarriages

[zinfamous]

What does this have to do with rape?

the recent and on-going GOP attempts to criminalize certain types of abortion (well, eventually all types, of course), regardless of various circumstances, including rape.

I generally find the rape as well as the pregnancy to be beyond that woman's control--but certain infamous GOPers have recently disagreed: essentially that such a pregnancy is either impossible (and therefore god's will if the woman actually becomes pregnant--like a baby jesus?), or simply god's will that the woman be raped and impregnated altogether.

Basically, I agree with you.

 

[kia75]

Don't mean to thread resurrect but thought this was an interesting read.

How a former pro lifer lost faith in the pro life movement

It dealt with the standard issues compassionate Christians have with the pro-life movement, that the best way to lower the abortion rate is through contraception but pro-lifers tend to be against contraception. The other way to lower abortion rates is to make the fetus loved and cared for but pro-lifers tend to want to do away with things like pre-natal care, preschool programs, etc.

But this section is what I found most interesting.

Without Birth Control:
Out of 100 fertile women without birth control, 100 of them will ovulate in any given month.
Out of those 100 released eggs, 33 will become fertilized.
Out of those 33, 18% will be rejected by the uterus.
In a group of 100 women not on birth control: 6 zygotes will “die”
With Birth Control:
Out of 100 fertile women on birth control, around 6 of them will ovulate in any given month.
Out of those 6 released eggs, only 2 will become fertilized.
Out of those 2, 100% will be rejected by the uterus.
In a group of 100 women on birth control: 2 zygotes will “die”
So let’s get this straight, taking birth control makes a woman’s body LESS likely to dispel fertilized eggs. If you believe that life begins at conception, shouldn’t it be your moral duty to reduce the number of zygote “abortions?” If you believe that a zygote is a human, you actually kill more babies by refusing to take birth control.

If you truly believe a zygote is a human being then you should do everything in your power to make certain everyone has birth control. If life begins at conception then making certain those zygotes don't get aborted or miscarried is very important, and the best way to do that is universal birth control.

 

[soulcougher73]

That is exactly what it is.

If the woman uses the pill (IUD, ect) 100% per instructions and the man uses a condom per the instructions a pregnancy simply will not happen.

Now if the woman is not on the pill or the man fails to use a condom then yes, it is being used as a form of birth control as you didn't fully utilize birth control during your sex act.

Wow you are naive.

 

[soulcougher73]

Actually, he's quite right.

My wife and I have been using BC since we've been married and no sign of a child. Of course nothing is full-proof. But just because something isn't full proof doesn't mean you don't bother using it, and 99% is a pretty sure bet, again, if properly used, that pregnancy is pretty much a non-issue.

It seems you're the one who never had sex or you'd know this.

Pick a side fence sitter. You do this often. "he's right" but only "99%" so. So what about the 1%? You do realize 1 percent of 7 billiion people is still a large number? Even if everyone was using BC, which is obviously not that case.

 

[Patranus]

Pick a side fence sitter. You do this often. "he's right" but only "99%" so. So what about the 1%? You do realize 1 percent of 7 billiion people is still a large number? Even if everyone was using BC, which is obviously not that case.

The poster you are referring to also only used 50% birth control.
Him and his wife are not using birth control, only his wife is using birth control.

It is the responsibility of BOTH parties to use birth control to mitigate pregnancy. Outside of that, any elective abortion is being used as a form of birth control.

 

[Fern]

Say somehow life was defined as the point of conception. And that abortion was ruled illegal and fetuses are protected and all that jazz. Wouldn't every time a miscarriage happens there would need to be a police investigation? I mean a life would be lost right? I am not saying I advocate one way or another, but it seems like it would be an unintended consequence. Or is that just too ridiculous to believe that could happen?

How would the police know a miscarriage occurred?

When someone dies (and we know about it) a death certificate must be issued etc.

Presently there is no system that I know of that reports miscarriages - to any authority.

So, unless things change significantly I don't see any 'automatic' police investigations. I think it would be like more any hospital emergency. E.g., if somebody with a gunshot wound shows up the police are notified, otherwise they not. i.e., it would be at the physician's discretion whether or not to report a miscarriage.

Fern

 

[kia75]

How would the police know a miscarriage occurred?

When someone dies (and we know about it) a death certificate must be issued etc.

Presently there is no system that I know of that reports miscarriages - to any authority.

So, unless things change significantly I don't see any 'automatic' police investigations. I think it would be like more any hospital emergency. E.g., if somebody with a gunshot wound shows up the police are notified, otherwise they not. i.e., it would be at the physician's discretion whether or not to report a miscarriage.

Fern

A badly-prosecuted law is still a law, and has potentially devastating consequences.

Imagine a couple going through a divorce. The husband knows about a miscarriage from years prior, now the husband goes to the police and claims the miscarriage was the murder of a baby.

Sure you laugh at it now, but there's plenty of Cohabitation laws that are spottedly enforced, usually because the divorced person has a problem with their ex.

Many women find miscarriages emotionally damaging, and a police investigation during an emotionally intense moment just adds fuel to the fire. The thing is that miscarriages are completely natural occurrences and also something you can't really prevent. It's also not really something that can always be kept a secret. Imagine a happy couple finding out that the women is pregnant and start bragging to everyone! In 9 months I'll be a Daddy and Wifey-poo is going to become a Mommy! Then a mis-carriage happens, and everyone the couple was bragging too just a few weeks earlier now knows the couple is a potential child-killer. If Fred in accounting now knows that his rival's wife could be investigated for child murder then he could tip off the police, giving his rival extra stress while he gets the big promotion. Even if the couple doesn't announce to the world that the wife miscarried, people will know 9 months later that a baby hasn't arrived. And it's also something that shouldn't be kept a secret, the wife might need the emotional comfort of her friends and family

 

[nehalem256]

A badly-prosecuted law is still a law, and has potentially devastating consequences.

Imagine a couple going through a divorce. The husband knows about a miscarriage from years prior, now the husband goes to the police and claims the miscarriage was the murder of a baby.

Sure you laugh at it now, but there's plenty of Cohabitation laws that are spottedly enforced, usually because the divorced person has a problem with their ex.

Many women find miscarriages emotionally damaging, and a police investigation during an emotionally intense moment just adds fuel to the fire. The thing is that miscarriages are completely natural occurrences and also something you can't really prevent. It's also not really something that can always be kept a secret. Imagine a happy couple finding out that the women is pregnant and start bragging to everyone! In 9 months I'll be a Daddy and Wifey-poo is going to become a Mommy! Then a mis-carriage happens, and everyone the couple was bragging too just a few weeks earlier now knows the couple is a potential child-killer. If Fred in accounting now knows that his rival's wife could be investigated for child murder then he could tip off the police, giving his rival extra stress while he gets the big promotion. Even if the couple doesn't announce to the world that the wife miscarried, people will know 9 months later that a baby hasn't arrived. And it's also something that shouldn't be kept a secret, the wife might need the emotional comfort of her friends and family

And why would the assumption be that a miscarriage is a murder?

Miscarriages are fairly common events. The police do not launch a murder investigation every time someone dies.

Its a little thing called probable cause.

 

[kia75]

And why would the assumption be that a miscarriage is a murder?

/sigh. Did you read anything I wrote? I give two examples of why the police would think it was a murder. A spite-ful ex. A spite-ful co-worker. I then show instances of spite-ful ex's using little used out of date laws to do the very thing I just said they did.


This is also ignoring a pregnant women drinking alcohol, drinking coffee, eating spicy food, falling down the stairs, etc, which might cause a miscarriage. If a little boy leaves a hot wheel car at the top of the steps, and a pregnant mother trips as a result, is that little boy guilty of murder? If a mother has to wait in line for a few hours underneath the hot sun, or runs a marathon, or does anything strenuous that causes her to miscarriage, is she now a murderer? If a teacher causes stress to a women by requiring her to take her to take a test that's 90% of her grade, then that women later has a miscarriage due to stress, is the teacher a murderer? If I cough on a women and give her a bad case of the flu, am I now a murderer?

Miscarriages are fairly common events. The police do not launch a murder investigation every time someone dies.

Ahh yes, we agree that miscarriages are fairly common events. I know we agree because a few posts ago I provided some statistics stating that fact It's been estimated that 50% of all pregnancies end in miscarriages.

No, the police do not launch a murder investigation every time someone dies, but a death certificate is issued. Does each miscarriage (which we both agree are very common) now get its own death certificate?

If I suspect foul play I can ask the police to investigate a death. Deaths that were thought natural can be re-examined for potential wrong-doing. Miscarriages can be caused by so many things that determining a cause of death is difficult. Miscarriages can be cause by so many things, and are so common that it'd be ripe for abuse.

What do you now do with the miscarried zygote? Many miscarriages are just flushed down the toilet, it's illegal to flush a dead body down the toilet.

Its a little thing called probable cause.

/sigh

That word, it doesn't mean what you think it means.

Probable Cause is required to issue a warrant, it has nothing to do with an investigation. Police have the authority to ask questions. Police can take you in for questioning and then release you a day later due to lack of "probable cause"



The truth is that treating miscarriage like a death opens the door to abuse and requires a rethinking of our laws regarding death. It takes a "fairly common event" and subjects it to large amount of paper-work, large amount of scrutiny, and large amounts of abuse.

 

[nehalem256]

/sigh. Did you read anything I wrote? I give two examples of why the police would think it was a murder. A spite-ful ex. A spite-ful co-worker. I then show instances of spite-ful ex's using little used out of date laws to do the very thing I just said they did.

You gave examples of why people would try to make a complaint. Not reasons why police would in anyway take them seriously.

This is also ignoring a pregnant women drinking alcohol, drinking coffee, eating spicy food, falling down the stairs, etc, which might cause a miscarriage. If a little boy leaves a hot wheel car at the top of the steps, and a pregnant mother trips as a result, is that little boy guilty of murder? If a mother has to wait in line for a few hours underneath the hot sun, or runs a marathon, or does anything strenuous that causes her to miscarriage, is she now a murderer? If a teacher causes stress to a women by requiring her to take her to take a test that's 90% of her grade, then that women later has a miscarriage due to stress, is the teacher a murderer? If I cough on a women and give her a bad case of the flu, am I now a murderer?

If the woman died in your example would the little boy by guilty of murder?

The truth is that treating miscarriage like a death opens the door to abuse and requires a rethinking of our laws regarding death. It takes a "fairly common event" and subjects it to large amount of paper-work, large amount of scrutiny, and large amounts of abuse.

Death is a fairly common event and it is subject to paper work.

The only person making claims of abuse is you.

Lets say a coworker has there elderly parent die. Lets say they are up for the same promotion as me. I could theoretically call up the police and claim they had say given their elderly parent too many pills in order to secure their inheritance. Does that mean we should legalize murder? Because that appears to be exactly your argument.

 

[kia75]

You gave examples of why people would try to make a complaint. Not reasons why police would in anyway take them seriously.

It's not like I provided a link to police taking petty law breaking done by ex's and showed police taking it seriously. Oh wait, I did.

If the woman died in your example would the little boy by guilty of murder?

How hard is it to kill a women and how easy is it to cause a miscarriage? Something as simple as drinking too much coffee can cause a miscarriage. Things that wouldn't phase an adult women, or even a baby are potential mis-carriage events. Remember, half of all pregnancies end in miscarriages.

Death is a fairly common event and it is subject to paper work.

The only person making claims of abuse is you.

Lets say a coworker has there elderly parent die. Lets say they are up for the same promotion as me. I could theoretically call up the police and claim they had say given their elderly parent too many pills in order to secure their inheritance. Does that mean we should legalize murder? Because that appears to be exactly your argument.

No, I'm arguing the status quo. You're arguing to change the status quo. The onus of proving that turning a common everyday occurrence into a potential felony resulting in jail time should be done is on you.

Prove to me that society would be better off if miscarriage were counted as deaths. If every time a zygote doesn't implant itself on the wall now means we need a death certificate. If after every large period we should now check to see if the women had drank too much coffee, run too hard, had too much stress, done something to potentially cause a miscarriage. Remember, 50% of all pregnancies end in miscarriages.

The reason very few, if any, society doesn't treat a miscarriage as murder is because it's not. A zygote isn't a human being, and to treat it as one is a mistake. If you truly believe each miscarriage is an infant death then you should be giving every women birth control pills, so less zygotes are miscarried.