Interesting interaction with police w/ body cam. Suspect is killed

[Pipeline 1010]

Every large plastic shovel I've owned has a knife metal edge to it for ice-breaking. A slice to the neck or lucky shot to your neck would kill you. A poke to the face could cause you to lose an eye. I realize also we get the hindsight to sit here and analyze the video and not worry about focusing on the suspect. When you are actually in the zone, talking to someone like that, you can get tunnel vision and it's quite difficult sometimes to say, "Hey, that's a plastic shovel without a metal edge. I could survive a few hits quite easily." Your brain might just say "Shovel. Shovel hurt bad like Sharkisha."

TASER also has limited effectiveness with that big puffy winter clothing...but if someone is swinging a shovel at my face it's not going to matter at that point.

But I can agree that once he started to get angry...maybe create a little distance and wait for a backup unit. There are times you have to choose when to fight, stand your ground, or back up, for safety's sake. Honestly though, it was all a fine conversation until the very very end when he started getting crazy agitated.




On a side note...do we know if he was even standing at his own house? If he was going door-to-door, he could have been standing on someone else's front porch as well.

Nailed it. /thread

 

[Zorkorist]

When the cop notices enough of a problem to call for backup, he should also know he should back off.

He has all the power in this relationship, "papers, please" and the resulting attack is almost certainly his fault.

-John

 

[kage69]

When the cop notices enough of a problem to call for backup, he should also know he should back off.

He has all the power in this relationship, "papers, please" and the resulting attack is almost certainly his fault.

-John

Wow that's idiotic. You should try watching the video.

 

[kage69]

LOL, yeah, I thought the cop could do with a bit more patience, the guy was clearly touched!
I find it amazing though how many people cops shoot to kill!..We come in peace......

I find it amazing that in this day and age there are people who still think cops shoot any other way.

You guys are hilarious. The cop didn't even raise his voice with that nut! He didn't give him any attitude, issue any threats or intimidating warnings and repeatedly tries to explain why he is there. He was being exceptionally patient, and got attacked with a shovel for his efforts.

If this was some asshole cop like the one caught on tape threatening guys, cursing them out, then actually slapping somebody, I'd be the first to repudiate him and advocate disciplinary action, possibly charges. But the cop in SLC did nothing wrong, and handled the situation with a remarkable amount of calm considering the fury that guy uncorked on him. People can try to spin the event's footage all they want, but it speaks for itself and that's why you aren't going to see this guy get death threats, go to court, or lose his job.

 

[Subyman]

Wow that's idiotic. You should try watching the video.

Haha yup, so I guess an officer asking for ID is cause for attacking him.

 

[mizzou]

Haha yup, so I guess an officer asking for ID is cause for attacking him.

he clearly has mental problems, which is probably the root of his anger.

Yet another police shooting where we fail to talk about our mental health crisis

 

[kage69]

Yet another police shooting where we fail to talk about our mental health crisis

Mental health is the issue no ones wants to talk about, it's true.

Problem is a lethal blow delivered by a mentally ill person kills the same way a lethal blow from a sane person does.

 

[Subyman]

he clearly has mental problems, which is probably the root of his anger.

Yet another police shooting where we fail to talk about our mental health crisis

The cop isn't a shrink. Mental health issues kick in once he is detained and in jail. On the street, a cop has to react to actions.

 

[Ackmed]

Body-cams cost the department $100 a piece

Where is your data on this?

The alleged suspect hadn't committed any crime, unless you consider soliciting from door-to-door and looking through car windows a crime. Therefore the officer had no right to demand any identification or stop this gentleman.

The 911 caller especially should be ashamed for not being able to identify her own neighbor. I feel bad for officers needing to vet calls from fools abusing 911.

According to some speculation, the suspect suffered a traumatic brain injury during a surfing accident, which possibly could have sparked abhorrent behavior.

You have NO clue as to what you are talking about. The guy didn't live there. People who do live there wanted him off the property. People who call into 911 do NOT have to give their names, they can remain anonymous. People use this tactic to case neighborhoods all the time. In my state, you are required by law to be able to prove who you are. If not, you can be arrested. It is not an abuse of 911 to get some shady looking guy off your front porch. There was zero snow, he was not shoveling snow for money. But you're too hell bend on hating Police to pay attention to little things like facts.

In 3 seconds and I found a law for Utah that requires someone to produce an ID when asked by an Officer under the circumstances. All the guy had to do was give a name and birth date, and after the Officer checked for warrants, he would have been asked to leave the property. Problem solved. But nope, he had a serious attitude. Your apologist attitude of SPECULATION of a head injury from surfing causing him to act this way is idiotic.

http://le.utah.gov/~code/TITLE77/htm/77_07_001500.htm

 

[Matt1970]

Learn to spot the baton he's holding in that blocking arm. Even if fake, in a real life situation, the baton would take the brunt of the force. Fuckin blind...

Batons don't absorb much energy, they transfer it to whatever is attached to or whoever is holding it, IE his arm. Also, did that look like a very powerful knee to the chest that would cause anyone to drop?

 

[bradley]

Where is your data on this?



You have NO clue as to what you are talking about. The guy didn't live there. People who do live there wanted him off the property. People who call into 911 do NOT have to give their names, they can remain anonymous. People use this tactic to case neighborhoods all the time. In my state, you are required by law to be able to prove who you are. If not, you can be arrested. It is not an abuse of 911 to get some shady looking guy off your front porch. There was zero snow, he was not shoveling snow for money. But you're too hell bend on hating Police to pay attention to little things like facts.

In 3 seconds and I found a law for Utah that requires someone to produce an ID when asked by an Officer under the circumstances. All the guy had to do was give a name and birth date, and after the Officer checked for warrants, he would have been asked to leave the property. Problem solved. But nope, he had a serious attitude. Your apologist attitude of SPECULATION of a head injury from surfing causing him to act this way is idiotic.

http://le.utah.gov/~code/TITLE77/htm/77_07_001500.htm

Firstly, Utah police killings are now the leading cause of homicide between 2010 and January 2015. This greatly concerns me.

Once this officer commits a homicide, he immediately becomes to investigators a de facto suspect in a felony. I'm simply using their standards for burden of proof. Utah authorities likely would never have released footage without the supreme capability to exonerate this officer.

Secondly, probable cause has a much higher burden of proof than reasonable suspicion, and the officer still didn't have any. The officer had a mere hunch based on information from a concerned citizen without any articulation of a solitary crime. Going door-to-door looking for work isn't a crime, nor is peering into car windows.

Was this suspect's shovel actively being used to commit a crime? Did the suspect immediately flee from the officer? No. Therefore there wasn't a single ounce of reasonable suspicion. The officer had no right to demand an ID or use denial as reason for arrest. Thank goodness for the 4th Amendment and those who actively know their rights.

 

[emperus]

This is entirely the officers fault. I think most police need better training in mitigating situations. Cop's shouldn't be escalating any situation. People's lives matter (whether you like them or not).

At the point the cop radioed in all he had to do was take a step back, wait for backup and reassess the situation. The "suspect" was of no harm to anybody at that point. What did the cop expect to happen when he tried to put his hands on an already agitated person with a shovel who seemsed to be a little mentally disturbed?

I can't see how anyone can think it was a good shoot.

 

[cubby1223]

You attack a cop, you're probably going to get shot and shouldn't expect sympathy for the events you set in motion.

Them's my thoughts.

Firstly, Utah police killings are now the leading cause of homicide between 2010 and January 2015. This greatly concerns me.

Why? Do you have an agitated officer tailing your every move? I would take that stat you mention as a good sign that violence amongst civilians is low.

This is entirely the officers fault.

The guy chose to attack the officer. That's on him.

 

[cubby1223]

When the cop notices enough of a problem to call for backup, he should also know he should back off.

He has all the power in this relationship, "papers, please" and the resulting attack is almost certainly his fault.

Ah, where would the internet be if it were not for the Nazis? I wonder what kind of rage-inducing analogies would fill the void? Can Canadian Mountie oppression analogies take it's place?

If the officer has all the power then there is no need for backup.

 

[Jaskalas]

I agree which is another absolutely great reason for these body cams. They can play this in front of the entire PD (or hell, any and all PDs) and discuss what they could have potentially done differently and use it as a training aid.

You made a good point regarding training material.

 

[Spungo]

According to some speculation, the suspect suffered a traumatic brain injury during a surfing accident, which possibly could have sparked abhorrent behavior.

Then thank god he attacked a cop who was able to put a bullet in him. What if he attacked someone who didn't have a gun? Would he put some random person in the hospital?

 

[Spungo]

Batons don't absorb much energy, they transfer it to whatever is attached to or whoever is holding it, IE his arm.

But that's true for every type of protection. Football helmets distribute force, and it allows people to smash their heads together as hard as possible without breaking the skull (although the brain inside is damaged considerably).

 

[emperus]

Then thank god he attacked a cop who was able to put a bullet in him. What if he attacked someone who didn't have a gun? Would he put some random person in the hospital?

Ask yourself, before the cop put the bullet in him, how many people did he attack?

 

[Mxylplyx]

I think if the police altered their protocol to allow for them to disengage from potentially hostile situations until backup arrives they would not find themselves in situations that compels them to use deadly force to defend themselves. It's tragic when anyone dies, regardless of who is at fault, especially when there are things that could be done differently to prevent it. I think police pride and the need to feel in immediate control of any situation from the onset gets in the way of sensible reforms like this.

 

[Zorkorist]

Good post, Mxylplyx.

Funny story that I hope everyone can enjoy and relates to the topic of mentally disturbed people.

I used to have a business, and this person befriended me as my window washer. Very personable man, that washed my windows once a month. He would chat my head off, and at some point I realized he wasn't quite right, and a street person, with mental problems. I gave him a ride, to his next (potential job) on some snowy nights, etc.

Anyway, so here is a mentally disturbed, street person, that washes windows. This is what he does.

I closed that location back in 2003 and that was the last I saw of him, until...

I just saw him, walking with all his window washing kit, about a month ago.

So I have to say, you go cops... for not killing him before this.

-John

 

[Matt1970]

But that's true for every type of protection. Football helmets distribute force, and it allows people to smash their heads together as hard as possible without breaking the skull (although the brain inside is damaged considerably).

A helmet had padding which does absorb energy and helps to distribute force over a wider area of the head.

 

[Ackmed]

Firstly, Utah police killings are now the leading cause of homicide between 2010 and January 2015. This greatly concerns me.

Once this officer commits a homicide, he immediately becomes to investigators a de facto suspect in a felony. I'm simply using their standards for burden of proof. Utah authorities likely would never have released footage without the supreme capability to exonerate this officer.

Secondly, probable cause has a much higher burden of proof than reasonable suspicion, and the officer still didn't have any. The officer had a mere hunch based on information from a concerned citizen without any articulation of a solitary crime. Going door-to-door looking for work isn't a crime, nor is peering into car windows.

Was this suspect's shovel actively being used to commit a crime? Did the suspect immediately flee from the officer? No. Therefore there wasn't a single ounce of reasonable suspicion. The officer had no right to demand an ID or use denial as reason for arrest. Thank goodness for the 4th Amendment and those who actively know their rights.

You're always using "facts" without backing them up with data. Just like the $100 cam claim, and when asked, nothing to back it up. You really have no clue. Trespassing is a crime. Looking into windows of houses and cars, is also suspicious. "Looking" for work, when there wasn't any work to do is also suspicious. These things are exactly what some criminals do, before committing the crime. Casing a place, getting an idea of what is to be taken. Taking advantage of people, usually older people. The actions of this guy, is exactly what the link I dropped gave the Officer the right to ask for his name and DOB. The fact is, all the guy had to do was give a name and DOB, and after being cleared, go on his way. Your defending this guy is just silly, and goes to show that you have zero clue. The guy attacked the cop. That is why he was killed, no other reason.

Anyone who thinks this was the Officers fault is just stupid. Typical cop hating mentality, where no matter what, it is always their fault.

 

[bradley]

You're always using "facts" without backing them up with data. Just like the $100 cam claim, and when asked, nothing to back it up. You really have no clue. Trespassing is a crime. Looking into windows of houses and cars, is also suspicious. "Looking" for work, when there wasn't any work to do is also suspicious. These things are exactly what some criminals do, before committing the crime. Casing a place, getting an idea of what is to be taken. Taking advantage of people, usually older people. The actions of this guy, is exactly what the link I dropped gave the Officer the right to ask for his name and DOB. The fact is, all the guy had to do was give a name and DOB, and after being cleared, go on his way. Your defending this guy is just silly, and goes to show that you have zero clue. The guy attacked the cop. That is why he was killed, no other reason.

Anyone who thinks this was the Officers fault is just stupid. Typical cop hating mentality, where no matter what, it is always their fault.

I'm a results based person in the middle of facts. I question why Utah police are now the state's leading cause of homicide from 2010 till today.

I'm also acquainted with law enforcement officers - one in my very family - whom (for instance) firmly disagree with the outcome of the Eric Garner case. I've also discussed police procedure including their training in probable cause.

And while we live in a bureaucratic boondoggle world amongst $35 bolts, $435 hammers and $600 toilet seats.... the Wolfcam Vision is $199 for individual sale, very capable and popular with police departments. These cameras when shipped directly from China are even less expensive in bulk. And they continue getting cheaper every day.

http://www.wolfcomusa.com/Police-body-camera-dealers/police_camera_user_list.html

Feel free to donate money for the purchase of a few units. Obviously this doesn't include the price to administer and store data, but it's still a small price to pay for indisputable court-admissible evidence. Yeah.

 

[CitizenKain]

Anyone who thinks this was the Officers fault is just stupid. Typical cop hating mentality, where no matter what, it is always their fault.

Its funny I hear a slurping sound whenever Ackmed posts about cops.