interesting info on Android GUI GPU acceleration

[Suspicious-Teach8788]

Apples and Oranges here. A complete ROM(CM) is completely different from applications that are being referred to with fragmentation. CM has to be completely rebuilt without driver code etc.. from the ground up. If the manufacturers released driver code, it would be much easier. Either way, this is so far off topic.

Applications, ROMs, everything is stymied by fragmentation to a certain point. That's what I was referring to when our resident Phandroid Bateluer was saying that fragmentation is just a buzzword that doesn't affect anyone.

It's as big of an issue as Apple's walled garden. But you are right, we're moving off topic about GUI acceleration.

 

[Suspicious-Teach8788]

whoops double post

 

[ITHURTSWHENIP]

Honestly I think Google has bigger problems- dealing with many different resolutions (the zooming trick doesn't fix everything), dealing with purposeful market fragmentation (this 10 sale is a response to Amazon), and lawsuits.

Briefly diverting from the topic. I cannot for the life of me understand why Google still does not offer alternative payment methods for their market

You see all these sites extrapolating the difference in app sales between IOS and Android as proof that Android users dont like to buy apps. But would IOS still enjoy the same level of profits if credit cards was the only payment method? I dont believe it. Being able to buy Itunes gift cards in stores is a HUGE deal

 

[Puddle Jumper]

I happened to see this on XDA

http://www.xda-developers.com/android/former-google-engineer-explains-why-androids-ui-is-laggy/

 

[Glitchny]

I happened to see this on XDA

http://www.xda-developers.com/android/former-google-engineer-explains-why-androids-ui-is-laggy/

Has already been posted earlier in the thread. Also considering the amount of things he is wrong about, the fact that he was an intern who didn't do much of anything, and he now works for MS, his words should be taken with a big grain of salt.

 

[ChronoReverse]

We also have things like Opera Mobile, which ARE GPU accelerated and buttery smooth counterpointing it too.

It certainly works even on the Nexus One with its (much more than the Tegra 2) anemic GPU. So the point about the Tegra 2 not having sufficient oomph is obviously a naive calculation.

 

[runawayprisoner]

I happened to see this on XDA

http://www.xda-developers.com/android/former-google-engineer-explains-why-androids-ui-is-laggy/

As mentioned, his words should be taken with a big grain of salt. A lot of the things he said were ungrounded and/or flat out wrong.

For instance, on iOS, the UI rendering thread doesn't intercept and stop all activities.

The reason why MobileSafari stops rendering is because when the user pans the interface around, they are actually panning a snapshot of the page as a texture. The GPU would then be used to move that texture around while the CPU works in the background.

Do the same exercise, and release the page after a while, and you'll see that the page underneath has already finished rendering.

On iOS 5, the behavior is completely different, and if the user tries to keep scrolling, the CPU would "yank" the page from the user's finger and attempts to render the contents.

GPU is used extensively in iOS in almost everything the user sees on the screen. MobileSafari, in particular, makes heavy use of the GPU for its buttery smooth scrolling and zooming operations. On the iPad 2 and iPhone 4S, the use of the dual GPU is so apparent that if the user was to pull the page up and down constantly, they'd see a slight delay as one side of the screen moves slower than the other. It's very apparent on the iPad 2.

 

[Suspicious-Teach8788]

We also have things like Opera Mobile, which ARE GPU accelerated and buttery smooth counterpointing it too.

It certainly works even on the Nexus One with its (much more than the Tegra 2) anemic GPU. So the point about the Tegra 2 not having sufficient oomph is obviously a naive calculation.

I think the point is that the 2D rendering we're doing in Android is easily taken care of by any GPU. This is why the Nexus One is used as a hardware platform in WP7. These phones have no problem in rendering 60fps UI. The fact is Android is just not fully accelerated yet which is why its so slow appearing.

While the SGS2 has great hardware, we shouldnt HAVE to upgrade to such insane hardware just to run an OS smoothly.

 

[SlitheryDee]

I got a new launcher for my bionic that claimed "hardware acceleration of some elements" and that seemed to completely fix the homescreen lag. I've realized that IOS really isn't any faster than android, it's just butter smooth through and through. Of course there is still some lag in apps and stuff on my bionic, but if google would simply implement whatever that launcher is doing it would improve people's perception of android responsiveness enormously.

 

[ChronoReverse]

I think the point is that the 2D rendering we're doing in Android is easily taken care of by any GPU. This is why the Nexus One is used as a hardware platform in WP7. These phones have no problem in rendering 60fps UI. The fact is Android is just not fully accelerated yet which is why its so slow appearing.

While the SGS2 has great hardware, we shouldnt HAVE to upgrade to such insane hardware just to run an OS smoothly.

That was MY point. The article in question claims that even the Tegra2 doesn't have the oomph to do it which is ridiculous (and I was making note of that).

 

[soccerballtux]

That was MY point. The article in question claims that even the Tegra2 doesn't have the oomph to do it which is ridiculous (and I was making note of that).

well it's not ridiculous. Tegra2 DOESN'T have the oomph to do things quickly that are coded inefficiently. It's mobile phone chip, not a damn core i7

 

[ChronoReverse]

well it's not ridiculous. Tegra2 DOESN'T have the oomph to do things quickly that are coded inefficiently. It's mobile phone chip, not a damn core i7

It IS ridiculous since we're talking about 2D UI acceleration here where a chip, the Adreno 200 found in the Nexus One, that is literally only 25% as fast can do UI acceleration perfectly. That is, when you're using Opera Mobile, on a Nexus One, everything is perfectly smooth.

This is proof that these mobile phones have more than enough GPU power, even on Android, to render 60FPS smooth.

 

[runawayprisoner]

That was MY point. The article in question claims that even the Tegra2 doesn't have the oomph to do it which is ridiculous (and I was making note of that).

The article in question was written by an Android engineer (there was a response from an intern, but the original article was written by someone who directly worked on Android).

And she claimed Tegra 2 didn't have the oomph. Who are we to argue with an engineer who's working directly on the OS?

 

[ChronoReverse]

The article in question was written by an Android engineer (there was a response from an intern, but the original article was written by someone who directly worked on Android).

And she claimed Tegra 2 didn't have the oomph. Who are we to argue with an engineer who's working directly on the OS?

With reality that is contrary. That is to say, Opera Mobile EXISTS and is accelerated just fine even on a Nexus One.

 

[KingGheedora]

I actually found it easier by just switching to WP7.

Dont need 10 million apps anyway. I spend most of my time in the top 3.
Calendar, email, and weather. And they all have live tiles so actually I spend very little time in apps period. Once quick view of the main screen is usually all I need.

i've heard the win phones are smooth. i only do a few things with my phone (email,maps,calls,texts,mp3,podcasts,rss reading, and then some minor web searches and data tethering), and I want it to do them well. how are the apps for podcasts, newsreaders, and dropbox on there?

 

[shortylickens]

i've heard the win phones are smooth. i only do a few things with my phone (email,maps,calls,texts,mp3,podcasts,rss reading, and then some minor web searches and data tethering), and I want it to do them well. how are the apps for podcasts, newsreaders, and dropbox on there?

They have Pulse. For me thats enough.

 

[KingGheedora]

They have Pulse. For me thats enough.

I just looked up what Pulse is. Seems nice, but does it really have a limit of 20 feeds?

 

[runawayprisoner]

With reality that is contrary. That is to say, Opera Mobile EXISTS and is accelerated just fine even on a Nexus One.

You may want to take that up to Android engineers. I'm not one of them...

 

[ITHURTSWHENIP]

It IS ridiculous since we're talking about 2D UI acceleration here where a chip, the Adreno 200 found in the Nexus One, that is literally only 25% as fast can do UI acceleration perfectly. That is, when you're using Opera Mobile, on a Nexus One, everything is perfectly smooth.

This is proof that these mobile phones have more than enough GPU power, even on Android, to render 60FPS smooth.

Its ridiculous that you comment on things you clearly did not understand properly. First Dianne explained that using the GPU to draw everything in the UI creates more problems than it solves because of how much RAM it uses up. So in certain parts of the UI they still use the CPU

Thus Opera Mobile being smooth means literally nothing in wether or not the entire UI can be smooth.

Secondly Dianne was saying that AS RESOLUTIONS GO UP, you will need more powerful GPUs. Thats not exactly a controversial statement is it? Her original example with Tegra 2 involved tablets using a 1200 x 800 screen. Not a Nexus One

Tegra 2 sucks because Nvidia was too cheap to use NEON.

 

[shortylickens]

I just looked up what Pulse is. Seems nice, but does it really have a limit of 20 feeds?

On one screen. But you can add as many screens as you want and just swipe left and right between them.

 

[soccerballtux]

It IS ridiculous since we're talking about 2D UI acceleration here where a chip, the Adreno 200 found in the Nexus One, that is literally only 25% as fast can do UI acceleration perfectly. That is, when you're using Opera Mobile, on a Nexus One, everything is perfectly smooth.

This is proof that these mobile phones have more than enough GPU power, even on Android, to render 60FPS smooth.

reread what I said, the point of my post is that android is coded terribly inefficiently that's why it's "not unreasonable" that Android can't render 60fps on them.

 

[soccerballtux]

Its ridiculous that you comment on things you clearly did not understand properly. First Dianne explained that using the GPU to draw everything in the UI creates more problems than it solves because of how much RAM it uses up. So in certain parts of the UI they still use the CPU

Thus Opera Mobile being smooth means literally nothing in wether or not the entire UI can be smooth.

Secondly Dianne was saying that AS RESOLUTIONS GO UP, you will need more powerful GPUs. Thats not exactly a controversial statement is it? Her original example with Tegra 2 involved tablets using a 1200 x 800 screen. Not a Nexus One

Tegra 2 sucks because Nvidia was too cheap to use NEON.

chill out bro
definitely don't want to read rage like that.

 

[Fox5]

Its ridiculous that you comment on things you clearly did not understand properly. First Dianne explained that using the GPU to draw everything in the UI creates more problems than it solves because of how much RAM it uses up. So in certain parts of the UI they still use the CPU

Thus Opera Mobile being smooth means literally nothing in wether or not the entire UI can be smooth.

Secondly Dianne was saying that AS RESOLUTIONS GO UP, you will need more powerful GPUs. Thats not exactly a controversial statement is it? Her original example with Tegra 2 involved tablets using a 1200 x 800 screen. Not a Nexus One

Tegra 2 sucks because Nvidia was too cheap to use NEON.

They need to re-architect to something along the lines of Linux's 3d desktop or Windows Aero. If each instantiation of OpenGL usage takes up 8MB...then only open up a single instantiation and pump the entire OS and all apps into a single OpenGL context. They should be able to 'flatten' the UI into a single texture too, alleviating memory bandwidth and fillrate needs.

Current mobile GPUs are right around Geforce 3/4 level. That could do Quake 3 at 1600x1200x32bit (close enough to 1920x1080 in fillrate) at >60fps, it shouldn't have trouble rendering a UI at 800x480. Intel's IGP's of around the same performance level can handle the Windows and Linux 3d desktops with no problem at all...

Heck, Tegra 3 is getting up there with GPUs in the Geforce FX and radeon 9500+ line, which means it's approaching relatively recent IGP performance on PCs. (roughly, the E-450's gpu is 4x as fast as the Ipad 2's GPU, meaning a C-60 has roughly 2x the ipad 2's gpu, so it's not hard to see tegra 3 matching AMD and Intel's IGPs from a year or two ago)

 

[soccerballtux]

They need to re-architect to something along the lines of Linux's 3d desktop or Windows Aero. If each instantiation of OpenGL usage takes up 8MB...then only open up a single instantiation and pump the entire OS and all apps into a single OpenGL context. They should be able to 'flatten' the UI into a single texture too, alleviating memory bandwidth and fillrate needs.

Current mobile GPUs are right around Geforce 3/4 level. That could do Quake 3 at 1600x1200x32bit (close enough to 1920x1080 in fillrate) at >60fps, it shouldn't have trouble rendering a UI at 800x480. Intel's IGP's of around the same performance level can handle the Windows and Linux 3d desktops with no problem at all...

Heck, Tegra 3 is getting up there with GPUs in the Geforce FX and radeon 9500+ line, which means it's approaching relatively recent IGP performance on PCs. (roughly, the E-450's gpu is 4x as fast as the Ipad 2's GPU, meaning a C-60 has roughly 2x the ipad 2's gpu, so it's not hard to see tegra 3 matching AMD and Intel's IGPs from a year or two ago)

I think you can't really do that. Each app requires its own virtual machine-- that's how Java works. What they're telling us is that to include the OpenGL libraries for use in the app's VM, takes 8MB.
which kinda brings up the question, why did they use Java in the first place???

and yeah it's pretty ridiculous phones can even run these full 3d cellphone games at 60fps yet can't handle Android UI.

 

[Fox5]

I think you can't really do that. Each app requires its own virtual machine-- that's how Java works. What they're telling us is that to include the OpenGL libraries for use in the app's VM, takes 8MB.
which kinda brings up the question, why did they use Java in the first place???

and yeah it's pretty ridiculous phones can even run these full 3d cellphone games at 60fps yet can't handle Android UI.

They need to build up the GUI layer of Android as its own separate running process and use some sort of message passing API to send it commands. If the existing GUI stuff doesn't work this way, they should add in a backwards compatibility mode that translates old apps to the new API. (ie, put in a compatibility shim that still presents the same outward interface as the old GUI code, but translate it to the new GUI code, Microsoft does it in windows)

Alternatively, since phone apps are full screen anyway, just make new apps use the new way, and have a fallback to software for old apps.