Intel Skylake / Kaby Lake

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andrehide

Junior Member
Aug 23, 2017
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That's...a lot of boards. I wonder if they are actually new designs or just the same Kaby Lake ones with a "new" Z370 chipset :p

Is there anything really "new" with Z370?

There were rumors about integrated usb 3.1 gen2 and wi-fi/bluetooth. I don't know if they will come with z370, z390 or neither. USB 3.1 coming to the chipset seems a matter of time, but wi-fi might be more far away.
 

crashtech

Lifer
Jan 4, 2013
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Historically speaking, it's two gens per chipset.

100/200 series got SKL and KBL

300/400 series should get CFL/ICL.

Even though you are quite knowledgable about what Intel is up to, it's anyone's guess what they will do, imo. Like the exchange we had back in May, when all the smart guys, not just you, thought Coffee would work on Z270:

https://forums.anandtech.com/thread...or-should-i-wait.2504901/page-4#post-38876027
So you believe that 6C CFL will drop into your Z270, then. Which one do you have, and do you think there is a way to divine which Z270 boards are most likely to receive CFL compatible BIOses?
Board is in my sig :)

Anyway, I'm 99% sure that pretty much every decent Z270 board will get CoffeeLake support. It's only Z170 that I'd be wary about.

So, moral of the story is that it seems predictions are perilous, even ones that seem to make logical sense.
 
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Mar 10, 2006
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Even though you are quite knowledgable about what Intel is up to, it's anyone's guess what they will do, imo. Like the exchange we had back in May, when all the smart guys, not just you, thought Coffee would work on Z270:

https://forums.anandtech.com/thread...or-should-i-wait.2504901/page-4#post-38876027



So, moral of the story is that it seems predictions are perilous, even ones that seem to make logical sense.

Oh, I totally agree, and frankly it's kind of a bummer. FWIW, the restriction of CFL to 300-series appears to be a purely artificial marketing decision (and a nod to the motherboard makers who are probably investing a lot of $$ in new Z370 boards so soon after Z270).
 
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Is there anything really "new" with Z370?

There were rumors about integrated usb 3.1 gen2 and wi-fi/bluetooth. I don't know if they will come with z370, z390 or neither. USB 3.1 coming to the chipset seems a matter of time, but wi-fi might be more far away.

Z370 is just Z270 with a new name. Z390 is actually a "new" PCH with USB 3.1, CNVi, and built on 14nm.
 

moonbogg

Lifer
Jan 8, 2011
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Has 24 PCI-E lanes been confirmed for Z370/90? If so, then HEDT is dead for 90% of current HEDT customers. I say that because the only reason for an enthusiast gamer like myself to get HEDT is for that extra couple cores for additional headroom and more lanes for SLI, and SLI is now dead. So...
 

moonbogg

Lifer
Jan 8, 2011
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The Z390 chipset has 24 PCIe lanes, but of course you still have the DMI bottleneck.

Maybe I worded that wrong and I don't know what a DMI is anyway. The 7700K has 16 lanes, my 6800K has 28 lanes and an 1800X has 24. How many will an 8700K have?
 
Mar 10, 2006
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Maybe I worded that wrong and I don't know what a DMI is anyway. The 7700K has 16 lanes, my 6800K has 28 lanes and an 1800X has 24. How many will an 8700K have?

Probably 20 -- 16 for use by the user, 4 for DMI. Hope they added more though, but I doubt it.

DMI is the link between the CPU and the PCH.
 

R0H1T

Platinum Member
Jan 12, 2013
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Maybe I worded that wrong and I don't know what a DMI is anyway. The 7700K has 16 lanes, my 6800K has 28 lanes and an 1800X has 24. How many will an 8700K have?
Basically a chain is only as strong as its weakest link.
x299_msi_xpower.png


Anything that's not directly communicating with the CPU, via PCIe bus or memory bus, is limited by DMI 3.0 speeds, you can;t exceed that.
 
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IntelUser2000

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Oct 14, 2003
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Historically speaking, it's two gens per chipset.

100/200 series got SKL and KBL

300/400 series should get CFL/ICL.

Icelake reportedly marks the return of FIVR, so there's a good chance it'll require a new chipset.

400 chipset, if Icelake uses an external one, would probably be compatible with Icelake and Tigerlake rather than CFL and ICL.
 

mikk

Diamond Member
May 15, 2012
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Oh, I totally agree, and frankly it's kind of a bummer. FWIW, the restriction of CFL to 300-series appears to be a purely artificial marketing decision (and a nod to the motherboard makers who are probably investing a lot of $$ in new Z370 boards so soon after Z270).


I doubt that. If this is the case I would expect that Kabylake would be compatible with 300 series which doesn't seem to be the case. i've heard Intel did make some changes to the socket power supply, that's why it is sometimes referred to LGA1151 v2.
 
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Jan Olšan

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Jan 12, 2017
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Well that's the thing, will ICL REQUIRE 400 chipset and keep LGA1511? or not?

Historically, no socket has lasted more than 2 chipsets.
It's not so much about number of generations - Intel has always changed the socket when "tock" (new CPU architecture) landed. Ice Lake is a tock, so with that, we should expect the socket to change and compatibility to be broken. It's by far the most likely course of events.
 

LTC8K6

Lifer
Mar 10, 2004
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Probably 20 -- 16 for use by the user, 4 for DMI. Hope they added more though, but I doubt it.

DMI is the link between the CPU and the PCH.

There's a slide somewhere that says "up to 24" for the 300 series chipset.

But that's what the Z270 chipset says as well.
 

TheF34RChannel

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IntelUser2000

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Ice Lake doesn't use FIVR, it uses McIVR.

That doesn't change it much. It's still a much different form of regulation. That means in terms of which chips would require new chipset, I would point to Icelake.

Multi-chip Integrated Voltage Regulator. It means in some form it'll be on the CPU. I think looking back on their research projects provide a clue:
intel_haswell_integrated_vr_xbitl.jpg


On that picture, they had a research project with chiplets providing the voltage regulation. Multi-chip IVR sounds exactly like that to me. If Intel saw that the integrated VR isn't needed in every segment, a chiplet would solve the problem. Have it on markets that really need it(Servers/Mobile), and not have it on markets that don't require it, lets say for -S/-K client chips.

With Skylake-X they bring some form of greater integration back. Which means server chips have it as well. With Haswell, they were touting thinner laptops and reduced board area(so it can allocate for greater battery size, for example) due to the FIVR. Skylake was a loss in that regard.
 
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moonbogg

Lifer
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People on other sites seem to already assume it will have 24. If it has 16 then people will laugh at it, straight up. They have to give it at least 24 to match Ryzen. If not, it will be a joke for connectivity. Can't even have a 16x video card with anything else attached? That's straight ugly.
 

jpiniero

Lifer
Oct 1, 2010
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People on other sites seem to already assume it will have 24. If it has 16 then people will laugh at it, straight up. They have to give it at least 24 to match Ryzen. If not, it will be a joke for connectivity. Can't even have a 16x video card with anything else attached? That's straight ugly.

That's what the lanes on the chipset are for. Yeah it'd be better if the PCH was directly attached but Intel's not there yet.
 

FIVR

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Jun 1, 2016
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Ice Lake doesn't use FIVR, it uses McIVR.

Is this the patent for this "McIVR" thing?

https://www.google.com/patents/US9229466

Edit: after briefly skimming this patent, and assuming you are correct... I think it shows that Intel will use EMIB on their icelake processors. Either that, or they will use MCM. There is no reason to do McIVR over FIVR unless you are using multiple dies.

From the patent:
BACKGROUND

Integrated circuits include various circuit components that are integrated into a piece of semiconductor material, or “die,” which may be encapsulated within and secured to a package. Integrated circuit packaging technology has been evolving and now requires increasingly smaller packages as the demand for greater function and smaller sized electronics increases. A package may include one or more dies, electrically connected to one another. Packages having more than one die are multi-chip modules (MCMs). Dies within an MCM may be positioned in a horizontal or vertical relationship with one another, or both, and electrical connections run between the dies within the MCM. The combination of the vertical and horizontal circuit connection capabilities saves valuable space on the package and results in greater functionality in less space.

Each die in an integrated circuit package requires a certain amount of power to function properly. Required voltage rails are typically delivered to each individual die by a voltage regulator. With the increasing number of dies in multi-stacked chip configurations, a greater number of voltage regulators are required. Oftentimes, different dies within an MCM require different operation voltages. Voltage regulators regulate the voltage, and thus the power that is distributed to the various die layers in a multi-stacked package. Voltage regulators tend to be physically large and take up large area. Many techniques have been developed to accommodate for this issue, such as including the voltage regulator on a circuit board that supports the package or into the package itself. These options limit speeds for the function of the components on the die because of the physical distance between the electronic components and the voltage regulator. Further, regulators that include on package inductors require additional space on the package. Having multiple inductors on package might not be possible in many cases due to area constraints.

Thus, there remains a need for improved voltage regulation architectures for three-dimensional integrated circuit packages.
 
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Mar 10, 2006
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Is this the patent for this "McIVR" thing?

https://www.google.com/patents/US9229466

Edit: after briefly skimming this patent, and assuming you are correct... I think it shows that Intel will use EMIB on their icelake processors. Either that, or they will use MCM. There is no reason to do McIVR over FIVR unless you are using multiple dies.

From the patent:

aMQjlTW.png


CNL-Y also using McIVR, so should be interesting to see what that chip looks like.
 

VirtualLarry

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Aug 25, 2001
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FIVR

Diamond Member
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That score means it basically matches the 12 core Threadripper. Should score ~2350 stock. Pretty disappointing, I figured they would at least have a 20% or so increase over the 1920X but it appears they just barely match it. It shows they can't achieve the kind of clocks they do with the 7900x

If it beat thread ripper stock, they would show stock numbers. Only showing overclocks gives away how low it scores stock.