Intel Skylake / Kaby Lake

Page 406 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

Ajay

Lifer
Jan 8, 2001
11,206
5,018
136
Thanks! Guess I'm too used to typical ASIC steppings.
 
Last edited:

TemjinGold

Diamond Member
Dec 16, 2006
3,050
65
91
There really aren't 32b tricks and there really aren't 64b tricks. And software isn't going through any sort of revolution, unless you mean that it keeps getting slower and slower as more cruft and features are added and new stuff is done with much more indirect languages and programming techniques....

6c cell phones are just a waste of battery power, that why pretty much every cell phone only run with a max of 4 cores or less actually turned on. And 18c gaming rigs are a horrible idea. No current or future game is going to scale that well, hell most games won't ever scale to 8c well, now or in the future. MT programming is hard, always has been, always will be, and Amdahl is a bastard. Sure sure, waste money and power on 18c and the rest of us will us 4-6c processors and enjoy significantly better performance and a lot more spare change.
Seriously. I mean 640k ought to be enough for anybody.
 
Mar 10, 2006
11,715
2,011
126
Ryzen already competes pretty well with 8 cores vs my 14 core E5-2683's. Yes, the Intel wins most of the time, but a $400 CPU competing with a $1600 one ? And only loosing by a few % ? Wait until the 32c/64t 8 channel memory AMD chip comes out......12 core Intel would loose today against Ryzen.

And to let you know, I own both, and am comparing them on software I run (DC)
Mind the clock speed delta ;)
 

formulav8

Diamond Member
Sep 18, 2000
7,003
522
126
Wait until the 32c/64t 8 channel memory AMD chip comes out......12 core Intel would loose today against Ryzen.
I agree with you. That's why I was saying that Intel's upcoming hedt ripoffs may be able to overcome AMD's "mainstream" platform (yes 6/8 core 12/16 thread is now the new mainstream even though Intel may say otherwise), but most likely will not fair as well against AMD's 16-32 core setups. It looks as if some are looking to Intel's new hedt as only needing to overtake AMD's current mainstream platform; when Intel will most likely have to deal with AMD's own so-called "HEDT" platform.

The biggest negative IMO for Intel is they do not show signs of lowering prices for any of their over priced cpu's from what I have seen.
 

Markfw

CPU Moderator, VC&G Moderator, Elite Member
Super Moderator
May 16, 2002
22,784
11,194
136
Mind the clock speed delta ;)
Stock vs stock ? My 1800x is 3700 STOCK, who cares about delta, when the performance is close but the price is the other way. And it has LESS cores and threads, and still competes with 14 cores vs 8 !

At the moment, Ryzen is kicking Intel in the arse,. When the server ships come out, the flogging could get worse.

Edit, and in power usage, they are not the heaters they used to be. If you are really curious, I could put a kill-a-watt on both, but at the moment, I would need the video cards to be equal, in use or not, and I don't have that available, both Ryzen systems have a video card, one folding, and one idle, but most likely a power drain (550ti)
 
Last edited:

formulav8

Diamond Member
Sep 18, 2000
7,003
522
126
Stock vs stock ? My 1800x is 3700 STOCK, who cares about delta, when the performance is close but the price is the other way. And it has LESS cores and threads, and still competes with 14 cores vs 8 !
He will most likely reject your findings even though you are correct.
 
Mar 10, 2006
11,715
2,011
126
Stock vs stock ? My 1800x is 3700 STOCK, who cares about delta, when the performance is close but the price is the other way. And it has LESS cores and threads, and still competes with 14 cores vs 8 !
That's a fair point :)
 
Last edited:

imported_ats

Senior member
Mar 21, 2008
422
63
86
It does kind of look bad when the mobile phones are shipping LPDDR4X at 4200. Going to have to wait until Icelake for Intel to catch up.
Better to think of LPDDR4X in phones as LPGDDR4. Basically a specialized part designed for direct connect with wire bond in package design. Not at all comparable to DIMM based DDR4. Sure they could design you a CPU with LPDDR4X if you are willing to deal with only having 2-4GB of memory.
 

Sweepr

Diamond Member
May 12, 2006
5,148
1,139
131
Intel (INTC) Q1 2017 Results - Earnings Call Transcript said:
Vivek Arya - Bank of America Merrill Lynch

Okay. Thanks. That's helpful. And as my follow-up, the very rich mix in PCs, ASPs were up very strongly. How sustainable is that? And are you seeing any effect of competition from AMD's product launches?

Brian M. Krzanich - Intel Corp.

Sure, I'll start. Bob, you may want to jump in. Each quarter we come in here and say we're a little concerned about the sustainability of those high ASPs, and we continue to have that, so we always forecast. If you take a look at what we forecasted for the remainder of the year, we've forecasted a slight decline in ASPs as we move through the year. Now that said, we are continuing to improve our roadmap. We're continuing to pull in products, and the demand for those high-end, high-performance products, from 2-in-1s, gaming, high-end workstations continues to grow faster than we are even able to project.

So right now we've forecasted a slight decline through the rest of the year, but we had strong demand for it in Q1. And we really believe that's a function of our products in our roadmap. From a competition standpoint, we're not seeing anything unusual right now as far as, there's always some level of competition in this market, and I'd tell you for Q1 and our forecast for Q2, we're not seeing anything out of the ordinary from what we normally see.
https://seekingalpha.com/article/4066480-intel-intc-q1-2017-results-earnings-call-transcript?page=5
 

Shivansps

Diamond Member
Sep 11, 2013
3,600
1,281
136
Ryzen already competes pretty well with 8 cores vs my 14 core E5-2683's. Yes, the Intel wins most of the time, but a $400 CPU competing with a $1600 one ? And only loosing by a few % ? Wait until the 32c/64t 8 channel memory AMD chip comes out......12 core Intel would loose today against Ryzen.

And to let you know, I own both, and am comparing them on software I run (DC)
But the 32C Ryzen will be up against Server Xeon part, that have way more than 12C, and Xeon Server parts pricing is not the same as HEDT, example: xeon e5-2620v4, you could have got one of these for $420 before Ryzen was launched. And dont forget 512bit AVX and new cache structure, Intel gonna use that as leverage point.

I can see your point on the 16C HEDT VS 12C Max at high price, BUT, again remember, higher IPC whiout even considering the new cache structure, AVX-512, probably better clocks as well since mainstream Ryzen cant match Broadwell-E clocks.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Sweepr

Markfw

CPU Moderator, VC&G Moderator, Elite Member
Super Moderator
May 16, 2002
22,784
11,194
136
But the 32C Ryzen will be up against Server Xeon part, that have way more than 12C, and Xeon Server parts pricing is not the same as HEDT, example: xeon e5-2620v4, you could have got one of these for $420 before Ryzen was launched. And dont forget 512bit AVX and new cache structure, Intel gonna use that as leverage point.

I can see your point on the 16C HEDT VS 12C Max at high price, BUT, again remember, higher IPC whiout even considering the new cache structure, AVX-512, probably better clocks as well since mainstream Ryzen cant match Broadwell-E clocks.
You are trying to tell me that a 8 core 16 thread e5-2620v4@2.1 ghz can beat a Ryzen 1700x@3.5 ghz ? The Ryzen is still cheaper, and both at stock ? I don;t think so, since my E5-2683v3 14 core 28 thread can barely beat it @ stock turbo 2.5
 
  • Like
Reactions: Drazick

krumme

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2009
5,936
1,553
136
Just shows he is not fit for the job. What an idiotic answer. Everyone and his brother can go and look at the retail sales ranks and see with their own eyes nothing is like last year. My mother can do that. You dont even have to know what a cpu is.
This was a golden opportunity to explain why they move product in. Why their product stack is strong. What their own strenght is. Explain why. Yet he goes into something like the earth is flat and some defensive answer.
What a lack of leadership.
 

Shivansps

Diamond Member
Sep 11, 2013
3,600
1,281
136
You are trying to tell me that a 8 core 16 thread e5-2620v4@2.1 ghz can beat a Ryzen 1700x@3.5 ghz ? The Ryzen is still cheaper, and both at stock ? I don;t think so, since my E5-2683v3 14 core 28 thread can barely beat it @ stock turbo 2.5
I just trying to say that HEDT and Xeon server prices are NOT the same, on HEDT a 6900K cost $1000, on server a 8C/16T starts at $400, yes 6900K is faster.

Thats the simple fact, 32C Ryzen will be up vs +20C Xeons, Xeons having IPC and AVX avantage.

On HEDT the 16C Ryzen may be a problem for 8C and 10C/12C, yes, still Skylake-X is LCC, it has latency, IPC, clocks, and AVX-512 on their side. Is not gonna be so easy for AMD as you may think.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Sweepr
Mar 10, 2006
11,715
2,011
126
Just shows he is not fit for the job. What an idiotic answer. Everyone and his brother can go and look at the retail sales ranks and see with their own eyes nothing is like last year. My mother can do that. You dont even have to know what a cpu is.
This was a golden opportunity to explain why they move product in. Why their product stack is strong. What their own strenght is. Explain why. Yet he goes into something like the earth is flat and some defensive answer.
What a lack of leadership.
Intel's financial results back up what Brian said.
 

raghu78

Diamond Member
Aug 23, 2012
4,093
1,474
136
Intel's financial results back up what Brian said.
The impact of the significantly improved competition will show in Intel's financials, but over time. Moreover these changes happen gradually and not abruptly. Ryzen has just started shipping in early March. Q2 will be the first quarter of Ryzen desktop sales. Then in Q3 the Naples onslaught begins. Finally Raven Ridge (Zen + Vega) in late 2017. I think 2018 is when the results will start to show in a significant manner from Intel's financials. I believe Zen 2 will narrow the gap in terms of IPC and clocks in 2018. I still believe Intel will be on top from pure perf point of view but AMD will provide excellent value and be competitive in perf/watt to carve a decent double digit market share over time. Moreover Zen is a brand new architecture on a brand new process . There is a lot of room to improve as Zen has unique quirks like CCX design, Infinity fabric speeds and AMD/GF will continue to improve process and design for future generations. AMD has lot of levers to tweak. Kabylake / Coffeelake are very mature architectures which have resulted from multiple generations of improvements from Nehalem->Sandy Bridge->Haswell->Skylake (tocks) and ticks(Ivy bridge,Broadwell) . Kabylake and Coffelake are also built of very mature and improved 14nm processes. AMD did a damn good job getting close to Haswell IPC and better SMT than Intel. Intel's 60+% margins and close to 100% market share in servers are going to be a thing of the past. Intel made those margins in the past because AMD had nothing competitive for the last 5 years due to the Bulldozer debacle. Thats not the case anymore.
 

jpiniero

Lifer
Oct 1, 2010
11,291
3,042
136
Intel's financial results back up what Brian said.
Not really. The ASPs are increasing because they raised prices at the high end while sales volume at the lower end are decreasing.

They are pulling in Skylake-X and Coffee Lake because of Ryzen and X399.
 
Mar 10, 2006
11,715
2,011
126
The impact of the significantly improved competition will show in Intel's financials, but over time. Moreover these changes happen gradually and not abruptly. Ryzen has just started shipping in early March. Q2 will be the first quarter of Ryzen desktop sales.
Intel just guided for Q2 and raised outlook for the full year. Kind of contradicts your argument.
 
Mar 10, 2006
11,715
2,011
126
. I believe Zen 2 will narrow the gap in terms of IPC and clocks in 2018.
Pinnacle Ridge is based on Zen, not Zen 2, based on leaked road maps. Ice Lake, on the other hand, should actually come in 2018, which should deliver improved IPC over SKL/KBL/CFL, so I think the IPC gap will widen in Intel's favor in 2018.

Moreover Zen is a brand new architecture on a brand new process . There is a lot of room to improve as Zen has unique quirks like CCX design, Infinity fabric speeds and AMD/GF will continue to improve process and design for future generations.
So Intel can't improve its architectures over time? That's news to me.

AMD has lot of levers to tweak. Kabylake / Coffeelake are very mature architectures which have resulted from multiple generations of improvements from Nehalem->Sandy Bridge->Haswell->Skylake (tocks) and ticks(Ivy bridge,Broadwell) . Kabylake and Coffelake are also built of very mature and improved 14nm processes.
Yes, and those products won't be competing with Zen 2, but Zen 1. What value proposition does Raven Ridge offer (4C + Vega iGPU) compared to Coffee Lake-H or even Coffee Lake-U? Better graphics, but worse CPU? That combination hasn't exactly been a winner in recent years, so I'm skeptical.

AMD did a damn good job getting close to Haswell IPC and better SMT than Intel.
Haswell launched four years ago, and not only does it seem to have a slight edge in legacy x86 IPC, it has much more advanced SIMD machinery (2x256bit AVX2) as well as TSX (this is actually a feature that enterprises like).

As far as the "better" SMT goes, would you say Saltwell Atom has "better" SMT than Haswell?

Intel's 60+% margins and close to 100% market share in servers are going to be a thing of the past. Intel made those margins in the past because AMD had nothing competitive for the last 5 years due to the Bulldozer debacle. Thats not the case anymore.
The latter, probably, but 60%+ GMs are likely going forward. There are a lot of chip companies out there that have major competitors that have even better GMs than Intel does.[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]
 

raghu78

Diamond Member
Aug 23, 2012
4,093
1,474
136
Intel just guided for Q2 and raised outlook for the full year. Kind of contradicts your argument.
We will wait and see if actuals match guidance. :)

Pinnacle Ridge is based on Zen, not Zen 2, based on leaked road maps. Ice Lake, on the other hand, should actually come in 2018, which should deliver improved IPC over SKL/KBL/CFL, so I think the IPC gap will widen in Intel's favor in 2018.
Leaked roadmaps yeah. But there is no proof that those are official roadmaps presented to customers , investors or even press. I think the right venue where we might see AMD talk about its upcoming roadmap is their Financial Analyst Day 2017 on May 16.

http://ir.amd.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=74093&p=irol-analystday

My guess is Zen 2 in early 2018 and Icelake in early 2019. Zen 3 on GF 7nm is likely for 2019, though not sure if H1 or H2. AMD has shown in the past that they can quickly iterate from a brand new architecture to its next iteration. Bulldozer FX-8150 (Oct 2011) to Piledriver Trinity A10-4600m (June 2012)

http://www.anandtech.com/show/4955/the-bulldozer-review-amd-fx8150-tested
http://www.anandtech.com/show/5831/amd-trinity-review-a10-4600m-a-new-hope

I think its definitely possible and highly likely that Zen 2 will follow quickly.

So Intel can't improve its architectures over time? That's news to me.
I never said that. I said Zen is a brand new architecture while Kabylake is a very mature architecture. The scope for improvements to Zen is more especially in the first couple of generations where there is usually low hanging fruit with regards to a brand new architecture. Definitely Intel will improve Kabylake with Icelake but I think the IPC gap between Intel and AMD will reduce between now and the next 2 years.

Yes, and those products won't be competing with Zen 2, but Zen 1. What value proposition does Raven Ridge offer (4C + Vega iGPU) compared to Coffee Lake-H or even Coffee Lake-U? Better graphics, but worse CPU? That combination hasn't exactly been a winner in recent years, so I'm skeptical.
I think Raven Ridge has the potential to be a disruptive product if it comes with a 2 GB HBM2 based High Bandwidth cache. We will see what AMD has done.

Haswell launched four years ago, and not only does it seem to have a slight edge in legacy x86 IPC, it has much more advanced SIMD machinery (2x256bit AVX2) as well as TSX (this is actually a feature that enterprises like).

As far as the "better" SMT goes, would you say Saltwell Atom has "better" SMT than Haswell?
You were the person arguing for months that Zen would be Sandy bridge IPC and now that its Haswell like you say thats 4 years old. But the key is how much has Intel increased IPC between then and now , roughly 10-12%. The applications which make use of AVX2 are few and thats partly due to the difficulty in vectorizing and getting higher performance out of AVX/AVX2 and partly down to Intel's product segmentation (Pentium/Celeron lack AVX / AVX2 support) .


The latter, probably, but 60%+ GMs are likely going forward. There are a lot of chip companies out there that have major competitors that have even better GMs than Intel does.
Again lets wait for time to prove who is right. I am expecting Intel margins to go below 60% within a year or two.
 
Last edited:

ASK THE COMMUNITY