Yuck. Revenue down 32% and again they lost money.
CCG revenue down 36%, DCG down 33%... that in Q4 compared to previous year.
Q1 Guidance is even worse... revenue down 40% YoY.
If your only performance metric is performance in games, then yes sure.
If other metrics are also part of the equation then things are far less clear cut.
Intel P cores are fast but huge and guzzle power in a P4 type way.
Certain workloads really do not like the hybrid P & E cores architecture (my new Alder Lake work laptop runs some SQL queries over twice as slow as the previous Haswell laptop, turning off the E cores helps but it's still
slower and with the E cores turned off other tasks are slower).
There is a good reason why despite how conservative data centre customers are, Intel are doing very poorly against AMD there.
That Intel are able to sell 13 CPUs competitively by sacrficing margins and have the advantage of being able to use DDR4 does not mean things are rosy for them.
Don't think this is the thread for that discussion, but since you mentioned it, before amd started doing pricecut after pricecut ALD was winning on every single price bracket, and not by a small margin (think 12600kf vs 5600x etc, 12700f vs 5800x etc.).*Such a blanket statement is obviously false. Each architecture has its strong points and cherry picking data at the extremes adds nothing to discussion.
Even if we take the statement at face value, ALD sold and still sells poorly compared to Zen 3.
Zen 4 and RPL are also selling poorly. Zen 3 sales are basically more than all the others combined.
Nonetheless, bad times ahead for corpo profits. Can't fight the macroeconomic environment. Two years of demand was pulled forward artificially. Winter... is coming.
They are doing fine.No sympathy needed.
(In Millions, Except Par Value; Unaudited) Dec 31, 2022 Dec 25, 2021
Property, plant and equipment, net 80,860 63,245
Retained earnings 70,405 68,265
They spend 17bil for FABs
put 2 more bil under the mattress
and they still made 8bil net income for the full 2022...
They are doing fine.
They are not taking the money for the expansions from the mountain of gold but from the running business which is why it looks bad if you are only looking at the main numbers.
It only becomes a problem if they keep doing it until AMD is also losing money. But I think it is a temporary consequence of lower than expected demand.
But AMD's doing fine overall. Offering a better value product (ADL, RPL) in a few segments does not constitute anticompetitive behavior on Intel's part. It's plain old competition.AMD's client business lost money last quarter.
Well, it may be "wonderful news" unless it becomes so bad that Intel can no longer ship competitive products because of lack of funds for research, development, and fab procurement and production. Then we would be back to a single competitive supplier, which would be very, very bad for everyone except AMD stockholders.Huh? Every single part of the supply chain have their inventory management. They optimise the level of the inventory.
Aggresive prices??? That is competition. Consumers benefit from that.
BTW as a consumer I do not care about Intels decreased profits at all. I care about the products and prices you can get them for, and for example i5 13500 or 13600K CPUs is the best value consumers can get at this moment.
Intel struggles a bit? Their margin decreases?
GOOD!!!
THAT IS WONDERFUL NEWS FOR CONSUMERS.
very bad for everyone except AMD stockholders.
So now if AMD becomes the top dog, you think they will somehow magically become a friend to the consumer?? :You think they wont raise prices and let up on new products? In fact we have seen this already. Zen 4 was initially overpriced, and prices were decreased because they were too high relative to RL.I have zero smpathy for Intel. For years they were the top dog and made zero effort to increase performance of their CPU's, the ten years prior to Ryzen was a crap decade for performance. This is what happens when you sit on your ass and let the competition catch up. They get momentum and end up surpassing you.
The job is to provide returns to shareholders on a quarterly basis. How many investors today think for the long and even the medium term? All that products & us exist for, is to put what's in our account into theirs. These people don't care which company lives or dies, only that they make more money. They all believe that can get out before it crashes by selling to the greater fool. Really stupid if you think about it. Traditional management/investors, by and large, had a deeper and more balanced view of the business world and in my opinion were better human beings. Most who have the jobs now are rabidly predatory, blinding them to act as a virus killing the host, instead of being a symbiont. Where do they really think this ends? Early days still.Only going to get worse for Intel. Not cutting dividend shows how inept the leadership still is. This is why nobody wanted to be CEO of Intel and they had to pay Pat >$100m salary to take it.
Pat is a terrible CEO that is all talk and no execution. Only a matter of time before he is kicked at this point. Maybe they'd be able to get someone competent then.
Only going to get worse for Intel. Not cutting dividend shows how inept the leadership still is. This is why nobody wanted to be CEO of Intel and they had to pay Pat >$100m salary to take it.
Pat is a terrible CEO that is all talk and no execution. Only a matter of time before he is kicked at this point. Maybe they'd be able to get someone competent then.
Probably true. Kick the can further mentalityI figure they won't cut the dividend because they assume the US Gov will bail them out (if it comes to that) as long as they continue with the fabs.
So now if AMD becomes the top dog, you think they will somehow magically become a friend to the consumer?? :You think they wont raise prices and let up on new products? In fact we have seen this already. Zen 4 was initially overpriced, and prices were decreased because they were too high relative to RL.
Intel sold their own chips at a low price to gain market share.
Don't ignore RISC-V, potentially the biggest competitor.It's not only AMD vs. Intel now. ARM competitors are coming. Even if Intel falls off the face of the Earth, AMD has no choice but to compete with Qualcomm and the cloud providers to ensure they are competitive.
The only reason AMD dropped Zen 4 pricing was that Intel sold their own chips at a low price to gain market share. Zen 4 costs more to make than Zen 3 because of 5nm. Intel needs to keep their fabs running to stay afloat. AMD needs to pay TSMC a large margin.
It's not only AMD vs. Intel now. ARM competitors are coming. Even if Intel falls off the face of the Earth, AMD has no choice but to compete with Qualcomm and the cloud providers to ensure they are competitive.
ARM and RISC-V aren't competition, if they ever reach a performance potential that equals intel and amd then intel and amd can just produce their own versions of it, being the known names in CPUs they are going to be selling better than others.Don't ignore RISC-V, potentially the biggest competitor.
Intel raised prices actually. It just may be that they raised it a lot less than AMD did, and AMD (tried to) raise prices a lot because of TSMC.
ARM and RISC-V aren't competition, if they ever reach a performance potential that equals intel and amd then intel and amd can just produce their own versions of it, being the known names in CPUs they are going to be selling better than others.
Intel already has a risc-v board on the way.
SiFive, Intel Announce HiFive Pro P550 MicroATX RISC-V Development Board
According to SiFive and Intel, the HiFive Pro P550 development board will be available this summer.www.tomshardware.com
For the time being ARM/RISC are only competitive in markets that can be catered to by all other options as well, namely GPUs and small core x86 arrays, both of which intel is increasing their involvement in.
Do you mean for home users or for servers?I am not talking about ARM itself but the fact that there is real competition now because large companies can make their own CPUs. There needs to be a good reason to spend more to buy an Intel or AMD CPU.
Amazon -> Graviton
Apple -> Almost everything, basically taking a good chunk of the premium laptop market
Qualcomm -> Nuvia acquisition
Microsoft -> Future ARM chip
For servers...was intel, and AMD for that matter, ever a huge player in those markets to begin with?!
Intel did decent business and AMD does some now, but didn't those companies mostly get servers from IBM, cray or whatever the big companies are in that market?
Good point. This was the implied point in my mentioning Risc-V. Roll your own. The ability, especially with the rapidly evolving AI enhanced tools, that will allow smaller and smaller companies, over time, to design their customized designs.I am not talking about ARM itself but the fact that there is real competition now because large companies can make their own CPUs. There needs to be a good reason to spend more to buy an Intel or AMD CPU.
Amazon -> Graviton
Apple -> Almost everything, basically taking a good chunk of the premium laptop market
Qualcomm -> Nuvia acquisition
Microsoft -> Future ARM chip
It was incredibly wise that Devinder chose an unspecified buyback program instead of regular dividends.It's not actually 39%. It's actually lower, like 36% because Intel changed up their accounting practices for this particular earnings report to elongate their depreciation schedule on older fabs from 5 years to 8 years, which means they take less of a depreciation hit per year, thus inflating their operating margins.
I really do think Intel is truly at a do-or-die moment now and they no longer have the COVID surge in all things semi to save their ass. It's going to be a really dark tunnel ahead of them and it will be exceptionally painful going through it.
Those fabs, as many have said on these forums over the years, must be feeling real heavy by now, like an albatross around Pat's neck. They said during the call that they plan on keeping a "competitive" dividend, but in my opinion the dividend needs to be cut. If the stock price drops as a result, so be it. We're talking about the survival and long-term health of the company here. But alas, Intel are keeping the dividend and instead cutting employees to reduce operating costs. The issue is that Intel needs engineers more than ever these days, as evidenced by the fact that it was a shortage of pre-silicon validation that tanked their server business. Their decision making is truly short-sighted and it's becoming more obvious that Pat cannot turn the Titanic quick enough. Hell, I'm not even sure he's trying to turn the rudder based on some of his decision making.
I just think intel will be in a better place Than AMD in 5 years from now, not because Pat is better executing than Lisa, but because of the advantages that foundry will eventually have over designers, i dont expect any other foundry to sprout from nowhere in the next 10 years that will be able to compete with the few big fabs, intel atleast have a chance to improve its fab, whereas AMD have a much smaller chance to take more market share against both challengers, intel's competition on X86, and the Risc-V inevitable bite in servers, + ARMs bigger bites in desktop (in the form of apple or soon Qualcomm and perhaps MediaTek as well).
Intel has little room to fall from here, SPR is definitely inferior to AMDs products, Pat confirmed that several times in the past, but, since everyone is aware about it and its priced in the stock price, this might actually be a good investment opportunity for those who belive that foundry will deliver on its promise, I am in the believer camp but it will take atleast another 18 months to playout.