Intel partially transitioning to BGA 2H 2013:

Page 2 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

beginner99

Diamond Member
Jun 2, 2009
5,318
1,763
136
WTF? 4th generation core isn't even mentioned on the slide an all of the red part is Baytrail-D, meaning Atom for Desktop. Atom has always been BGA...So this thread is completely useless.

And single-threaded these will loose even against the worst Core Celerons and they are desktop parts as is clearly mentioned on the slides so battery life is not relevant either. I mean it feels like I'm actually the only one that looked at those slides instead of believing whatever OP wrote which has nothing do to with whats on the slides.
 

fixbsod

Senior member
Jan 25, 2012
415
0
0
Exactly

While I do not look forward to the tranisition to BGA as it just reduces choice and options, I myself in the over 20 years of being a computer owner have not ONCE needed a removable CPU. I say this too being more enthusiast based than mainstream. By the time there are options it's generally not worthwhile --

could currently upgrade 2700k to 3770k -- but what's the point?

could have gotten a PresHOT to upgrade my Pentium 4 Northwood however we all know how good that chip was

could have gotten a 486dx2/66 over my 33 but why as Pentium was the future?

I do have the feeling that this is going to SUCK for mobo manufacturers tho as instead of just designing boards it's board/cpu combo so the number of options/issues could explode exponentially. It would be nice tho if intel could back off the 25+ chips each gen that are really only like 4 difft chips just binned for difft speeds.

Shrug, if anything it gives AMD an opportunity which is good to see as intel sucks when they're in the driver's seat.

Since going Intel I always have to upgrade my socket and RAM anyway. I haven't put more than one processor in a board in a very long time (I know that others do).
 

Exophase

Diamond Member
Apr 19, 2012
4,439
9
81
I do have the feeling that this is going to SUCK for mobo manufacturers tho as instead of just designing boards it's board/cpu combo so the number of options/issues could explode exponentially.

Of course they won't explode exponentially (well technically the word you were looking for is quadratically :p), there will have to be fewer options.
 

blackened23

Diamond Member
Jul 26, 2011
8,548
2
0
WTF? 4th generation core isn't even mentioned on the slide an all of the red part is Baytrail-D, meaning Atom for Desktop. Atom has always been BGA...So this thread is completely useless.

And single-threaded these will loose even against the worst Core Celerons and they are desktop parts as is clearly mentioned on the slides so battery life is not relevant either. I mean it feels like I'm actually the only one that looked at those slides instead of believing whatever OP wrote which has nothing do to with whats on the slides.

Uhh? Clearly you didn't click the source link to read the information available.

All of the higher than HD4600 SKUs are BGA only for all in ones. That includes 4th generation core processors. To get HD5000, GT3, or GT3e, they are only available via BGA. This is besides the fact that we *know* Broadwell will be BGA only, at least initially. There's not even a single mention of broadwell for the desktop until broadwell E. So with that being the case, I highly suspect intel is shifting all of their LGA desktop resources to the 6/8 core processors, starting with Broadwell. I could be wrong, but that is where things seem to be headed. I mentioned this before, but if it does happen - I don't really have an issue with it. At this point, E processors/platforms seem to be offering a lot more in comparison to the mainstream "K" parts anyway. And the cost of entry isn't too excessive, I assume intel will still offer x820 CPUs for around 300$.

Keep in mind: this will barely affect the current 4th generation. Some CPUs are being transitioned, with many more being offered in both formats (although the LGA versions have a worse iGPU). With the next generation, it seems that things will be mostly BGA based - Broadwell will be BGA only while LGA gets a Haswell "refresh" - whatever that means.

Intel-Haswell-BGA-2.jpg
 
Last edited:

Phynaz

Lifer
Mar 13, 2006
10,140
819
126
So the lowest of the low mainstream (Celeron) CPU is no longer Core based but Atom based.

Interesting...Although I don't know anyone who has bought a Celeron in the last decade.
 

mikk

Diamond Member
May 15, 2012
4,307
2,395
136
Bay Trail will be BGA only, what's the special about it? I don't see anything new. Bay Trail isn't Core based, obviously not everyone knows it.
 

crashtech

Lifer
Jan 4, 2013
10,695
2,294
146
Any predictions based on this? I feel like intel will shift most of their desktop resources to the Xeon and Enthusiast line of 6/8 core processors, and these processors will remain Socketed for years to come. I'm not sure of the implications on their mainstream parts, the K parts are obviously remaining socketed - but I'm not sure if that will remain the case for future generations.

What do you guys think?

I agree with your assessment. The only real question is how gradual the shift will be.
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,402
8,574
126
Okay, so this was brought up before. And numerous trolls responded that there was absolutely no way, no how, ABSOLUTELY NOT ONE CHANCE that intel would go BGA.
i don't think anyone ever said intel is going 100% BGA. i also don't think anyone ever said that there was 100% no way that intel puts out BGA 'desktop' processors. BGA is going to go where it makes sense and is needed/wanted: NUC type 'desktops' and AIOs.

Quad Core pentium could be a total game changer for budget gaming rigs.
that's an atom, so, no, it won't.
 

Sweepr

Diamond Member
May 12, 2006
5,148
1,143
136
Broadwell GT4 is nothing new really. Furthermore Broadwell won't come for desktop. It's a mistake from Intel.

Broadwell is definitely coming to desktops (probably as a BGA only solution). GT4 existence might not be something new but the fact that Intel will bring all the flavours to desktops (GT0?, GT1, GT2, GT3, GT4) is interesting.
 

mikk

Diamond Member
May 15, 2012
4,307
2,395
136
Broadwell is definitely coming to desktops (probably as a BGA only solution). GT4 existence might not be something new but the fact that Intel will bring all the flavours to desktops (GT0?, GT1, GT2, GT3, GT4) is interesting.


For all-in-one PCs yes. But not for the traditional desktop market in LGA. In this picture the desktop doesn't mean anything. It's all Broadwell BGA and nothing more.
 

Cogman

Lifer
Sep 19, 2000
10,286
145
106
Is it really that big of an issue if they go all BGA? I would have said yes 5 years ago when I might upgrade 1 part or another every 6 months or so. However, with the slowdown in performance increases, you are pretty much guaranteed that if you want a new CPU you need to get a new motherboard (as most people won't invest for a 10% performance increase).

Heck, from one generation to the next, intel switches up socket configurations. Gone are the days of Socket A and LGA 478 supporting 8 generations of CPUs.
 

Idontcare

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
21,110
64
91
So they're copying the Bobcat/Jaguar model? ;)

Of course. AMD's strategy here is *very* smart.

AMD has great ideas all the time, and like a free consultant they make sure everyone knows about their great ideas with enough lead-time for their competitors to take advantage of the freely given advice.

If Intel were more like IBM and their infamous NIH (not invented here) syndrome then it all of AMD's efforts to provide the world with free consulting would be a waste of time.

But Intel has no problems bringing in consultants, paid or pro bono, and putting their advice to action.
 

jpiniero

Lifer
Oct 1, 2010
16,831
7,280
136
i don't think anyone ever said intel is going 100% BGA. i also don't think anyone ever said that there was 100% no way that intel puts out BGA 'desktop' processors. BGA is going to go where it makes sense and is needed/wanted: NUC type 'desktops' and AIOs.

That's the thing though, it may be difficult for people in the not-to-distant-future to buy OEM desktops that aren't NUC or AIO types. And most people will be OK with it.
 

blackened23

Diamond Member
Jul 26, 2011
8,548
2
0
Updated OP with more info! Complete intel slide deck with way more information.

http://www.myce.com/news/exclusive-leaked-russian-intel-boxed-cpu-roadmap-67847/

Still absorbing all of the information at this link, some good stuff. It looks like a lot of processors are remaining socketed, more so than I thought. There's a complete list of slides with all SKUs, all 200 of them ;) It appears , right now, that the majority of CPUs are being offered in both formats - while the improved iGPU SKUs are all for BGA. (HD5200, GT3, etc).
 
Last edited:

Sheep221

Golden Member
Oct 28, 2012
1,843
27
81
So the lowest of the low mainstream (Celeron) CPU is no longer Core based but Atom based.

Interesting...Although I don't know anyone who has bought a Celeron in the last decade.
Many people use celerons and they are really good bang for the buck, yes the overclocking enthusiasts won't buy celeron but technically they are good for everything else beside hardcore gaming and video editing.
SB/IB celerons are fast as high end C2Ds or C2Qs respectively, which means they are even good for any games 3 years or older.
 

mavere

Member
Mar 2, 2005
195
14
81
It's perplexing that the top end desktop BGA is at 'only' 65W. Current AIOs and mini-PC with discretes are already built to dissipate significantly higher heat. Why not bump the thermal envelop to 95W or even 130W and give most of the extra headroom to the GPU?

I'm not sure if it's because Iris cannot scale up very well, but it'd be nice to have a non-upgradable chip be able to go toe-to-toe against mid $100 GPUs or even just an AMD APU. Anyone who cares about both form and function (surely the key market for an i7 -R) are willing and able to throw money at achieving both (high end iMacs).
 

Vesku

Diamond Member
Aug 25, 2005
3,743
28
86
AMD has great ideas all the time, and like a free consultant they make sure everyone knows about their great ideas with enough lead-time for their competitors to take advantage of the freely given advice.

If Intel were more like IBM and their infamous NIH (not invented here) syndrome then it all of AMD's efforts to provide the world with free consulting would be a waste of time.

But Intel has no problems bringing in consultants, paid or pro bono, and putting their advice to action.

It's not so much free consulting as your potential customers saying "I like your product, but instead of buying it from you I'm going to ask the large company I'm used to dealing with if they can sell me something similar." Which actually happens a lot in business, not something exclusive to the computer industry. The way the new CEO has been speaking in public you can tell Intel is getting bombarded with "Where is your version of Snapdragon 800? Where is your version of these Kabini chips?"

So is this how Intel meets their "not going all BGA in the forseeable future PR", stretch out desktop Haswell and perhaps after Haswell is too long in the tooth have a few Broadwell socket SKUs then kill off socketed all together?
 
Last edited:

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,402
8,574
126
AMD has great ideas all the time, and like a free consultant they make sure everyone knows about their great ideas with enough lead-time for their competitors to take advantage of the freely given advice.

If Intel were more like IBM and their infamous NIH (not invented here) syndrome then it all of AMD's efforts to provide the world with free consulting would be a waste of time.

But Intel has no problems bringing in consultants, paid or pro bono, and putting their advice to action.

i've thought that for a while. amd has a great idea, shouts it from the rooftops, and intel has the engineering capability and the foundry know-how to beat them to the punch at it.
 

Idontcare

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
21,110
64
91
It's not so much free consulting as your potential customers saying "I like your product, but instead of buying it from you I'm going to ask the large company I'm used to dealing with if they can sell me something similar." Which actually happens a lot in business, not something exclusive to the computer industry. The way the new CEO has been speaking in public you can tell Intel is getting bombarded with "Where is your version of Snapdragon 800? Where is your version of these Kabini chips?"

Oh yeah, that happens too, no question there.

I'm just looking at it from the perspective of Intel which does hire loads of outside consultants to provide external feedback on everything under the sun...and since they are not above internalizing that external feedback they are also not going to be above internalizing the feedback made freely available by AMD when AMD makes stuff public.

I mean if AMD really did think that the future was fusion then why on earth did they tip of their competition to this years and years in advance of themselves being able to cash in on their vision?

Any sane business team would keep that kind of edge to themselves and only mention it when they were literally months away from rolling products out to the market.

But a consultant will talk about it for years and years in advance to as many people as are willing to pay them to talk about it...kinda like AMD only AMD doesn't charge for the free advice :D

That said, everyone needs to work with what they are great at...and if AMD's greatest strength is being a "big idea generator" the same as a consulting agency then they ought to stop trying to create their vision (and getting their ass kicked in the meantime) and instead become a for-profit consulting company.

If you are suited to be the best ball-point pen manufacturer in the world don't insist on trying to make automobiles, your products will suck and you won't cash in on your strengths either.

So is this how Intel meets their "not going all BGA in the forseeable future PR", stretch out desktop Haswell and perhaps after Haswell is too long in the tooth have a few Broadwell socket SKUs then kill off socketed all together?

I personally don't see the whole BGA thing going down like that. I see BGA being just another option for lowering the BOM of fully integrated devices like tablets and laptops as well as those all-in-one desktop deals where the LCD itself houses the innards of a regular desktop computer case.

That said, given the successful business model that the discrete GPU makers have built with their AIB partners, it certainly can be done and would not represent something unacceptable to the market or supplier chain.

Nobody expects their discrete GPU to be upgradable, and it wouldn't take too much in terms of time for people to find themselves being ok with buying a mobo that was also not CPU-upgradable.
 

beginner99

Diamond Member
Jun 2, 2009
5,318
1,763
136
Is it really that big of an issue if they go all BGA? I would have said yes 5 years ago when I might upgrade 1 part or another every 6 months or so. However, with the slowdown in performance increases, you are pretty much guaranteed that if you want a new CPU you need to get a new motherboard (as most people won't invest for a 10% performance increase).

Heck, from one generation to the next, intel switches up socket configurations. Gone are the days of Socket A and LGA 478 supporting 8 generations of CPUs.

Agree. Still running my same CPU and Mobo for the last 3 years. Could have been BGA and made no difference. However it would sure make me more cautious with overclocks not to fry anything. But the way it looks BGA won't be overclockable anyway...

Updated OP with more info! Complete intel slide deck with way more information.

http://www.myce.com/news/exclusive-leaked-russian-intel-boxed-cpu-roadmap-67847/

Still absorbing all of the information at this link, some good stuff. It looks like a lot of processors are remaining socketed, more so than I thought. There's a complete list of slides with all SKUs, all 200 of them ;) It appears , right now, that the majority of CPUs are being offered in both formats - while the improved iGPU SKUs are all for BGA. (HD5200, GT3, etc).

I see you came around. GT3e has been known to be BGA only for a while now. But I did not know that the would offer HD5200 on desktop at all. But makes sense it's bga because it will be the exact same chip as the ones that go in laptops...probably those are the bad bins and higher voltage + TDP does not matter much in a desktop OEM PC...
 

blackened23

Diamond Member
Jul 26, 2011
8,548
2
0
Agree. Still running my same CPU and Mobo for the last 3 years. Could have been BGA and made no difference. However it would sure make me more cautious with overclocks not to fry anything. But the way it looks BGA won't be overclockable anyway...



I see you came around. GT3e has been known to be BGA only for a while now. But I did not know that the would offer HD5200 on desktop at all. But makes sense it's bga because it will be the exact same chip as the ones that go in laptops...probably those are the bad bins and higher voltage + TDP does not matter much in a desktop OEM PC...

I'm not so much concerned with 4th generation as it only includes a few SKUs - but it does include quite a few core CPUs as well. It is definitely not only the celeron and pentium chips are you indicated. Anyway, the main question is the implications of what will happen in the future - I don't know how else to explain the outright absence of Broadwell on anything except mobile roadmaps for BGA.

It seems to hint that intel may be shuffling a great deal of it's parts toward the enthusiast line of 6/8 core processors beginning with the next generation, and we're seeing intel is planning on releasing Haswell-E for 2014. I just don't know whether the change will be abrupt, gradual, or if they're going to still offer Broadwell in LGA and just aren't telling us. Or maybe i'm missing something, shrug.
 
Last edited:

Vesku

Diamond Member
Aug 25, 2005
3,743
28
86
I mean if AMD really did think that the future was fusion then why on earth did they tip of their competition to this years and years in advance of themselves being able to cash in on their vision?

1. They need others in the industry to support a "fusion" standard. They aren't big enough for vendor lock in. Hence the HSA Foundation

2. Misstep in their CPU division so they tipped their hand in a bid to prop up sales.
a. Stretched out by GF node delays compounded with their WSA contract.

If they had more cash reserves they could have deployed a full HSA APU on GF 32nm or TSMC 28nm and greatly aided developer adoption. Instead it was pushed out to GF 28nm.

Some market dominant companies are too slow in adapting but, unfortunately for AMD, Intel has yet to be one of those companies.
 
Last edited: