Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes + WCL Discussion Threads

[Tigerick]

Wildcat Lake (WCL) Specs

Intel Wildcat Lake (WCL) is upcoming mobile SoC replacing Raptor Lake-U. WCL consists of 2 tiles: compute tile and PCD tile. It is true single die consists of CPU, GPU and NPU that is fabbed by 18-A process. Last time I checked, PCD tile is fabbed by TSMC N6 process. They are connected through UCIe, not D2D; a first from Intel. Expecting launching in Q1 2026.

		Intel Raptor Lake U	Intel Wildcat Lake 15W?	Intel Lunar Lake		Intel Panther Lake 4+4+4
Launch Date		Q1-2024	Q2-2026	Q3-2024		Q1-2026
Model		Intel 150U	Intel Core 7	Core Ultra 7 268V		Core Ultra 7 365
Dies		2	2	2		3
Node		Intel 7 + ?	Intel 18-A + TSMC N6	TSMC N3B + N6		Intel 18-A + Intel 3 + TSMC N6
CPU		2 P-core + 8 E-cores	2 P-core + 4 LP E-cores	4 P-core + 4 LP E-cores		4 P-core + 4 LP E-cores
Threads		12	6	8		8
Max Clock		5.4 GHz	?	5 GHz		4.8 GHz
L3 Cache		12 MB		12 MB		12 MB
TDP		15 - 55 W	15 W ?	17 - 37 W		25 - 55 W
Memory		128-bit LPDDR5-5200	64-bit LPDDR5	128-bit LPDDR5x-8533		128-bit LPDDR5x-7467
Size		96 GB		32 GB		128 GB
Bandwidth				136 GB/s
GPU		Intel Graphics	Intel Graphics	Arc 140V		Intel Graphics
RT		No	No	YES		YES
EU / Xe		96 EU	2 Xe	8 Xe		4 Xe
Max Clock		1.3 GHz	?	2 GHz		2.5 GHz
NPU		GNA 3.0	18 TOPS	48 TOPS		49 TOPS

As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.

 

[511]

Wildcat Lake doesn't seem that cheap in a traditional sense to me either. It's only cheap in a relative sense in modern day terms. You couldn't beat costs of an 80mm2 monolithic die on an older process. Wildcat Lake is that plus another die for IO on Foveros, and a Base silicon tile.

Hang on wildcat lake is not foveros it's UCI-E there is no advanced packing it's 18A die with N6 PCH Cheap as hell

 

[MoistOintment]

The change of the decisions regarding tariffs isn't just done on a whim. The book Art of the Deal describes how Trump thinks in regards to making business deals in general. Some think this is an overarching strategy to eventually devalue the US dollar enough to make payments on the exorbitant debt possible. The Mar-a-lago deal for example talked about a potential radically devaluation of the US dollar in the tune of ~90%, which also makes return to manufacturing possible. They can delay the issue, but it eventually will need to be paid in some form or another, either by paying it off or the economy turning into 3rd world country equivalent. Many, including me believe on a financial reset coming.

A 40 year old book that was written by a ghost writer shouldn't be a guiding principle because governments should most certainly not be run like a business. Stability and predictability are the role of the government. It's not as simple as extracting value from a company and then getting a golden parachute if it all crumbles.

Debating whether tariffs had an impact on inventory due to actual price increases or if they just distorted inventory and decision making as a result of (legally questionable) tariff uncertainty, that then got exemptions after Huang and Cook had private dinners with him, ultimately is besides the point.

If domestic manufacturing requires collapsing the dollar, it's ultimately not worth that trade off and the entire goal is fundamentally flawed. I do think advances in robotics and autonomy will ultimately make off-shoring of production less desirable at some future point, and I do fundamentally support onshoring critical manufacturing, and I don't think a reasonable, congressionally approved tariff plan is a bad idea either - but ultimately, expecting predictable tax rates and policy so these companies can plan their roadmaps and procurement with some confidence is fundamentally necessary.

I have much more to say about the rest, but I think I've already gone off topic enough.

I know that tariff uncertainty impacted our decision making, and we're a company that imports very little compared to most Fortune 1000's

In other news, WCL leaked GB6 numbers outperforming the 165U is quite impressive

 

[511]

In other news, WCL leaked GB6 numbers outperforming the 165U is quite impressive

WCL ST performance and battery life is in same ballpark as LNL

 

[MoistOintment]

Running it NOT like a business and we are almost 40 trillion in debt is the result.

But yet, Panther Lake looks good for Intel.

25%

That's the ST % increase of going from MTL-U to WCL

(and also the % of total debt accumulated under Mr. Art of the Deal)

 

[poke01]

Panther Lake is going to save Intel.

Intel was always going to be fine. The PC industry needs Intel and so does USG.

Also Panther Lake isn't saving intel lol, it just lowers the cost for Intel for the compute die. That saving is rendered moot when they move to Nova Lake and the compute tile is on N2 again

 

[Joe NYC]

There were several months of uncertainty surrounding Tarrif's that absolutely did impact orders that are having ripple effects to today, where we'd wake up and see real or potential changes to tariffs just tweeted out by the president. At least for us (not the semi-industry), we did some larger then usual bulk orders of laptops, docks, and monitors to build up inventory during that time.

Sure things can happen in real world due to panic of false expectations. But it does not make those expectations (of higher tariffs) true. They turned out to be false.

For example, some people expected widespread panic due to Y2K, which turned into a good business for building bunkers, survival kits, power generators, emergency food supply kits.

Just weeks ago, similar panic took place in some African nations, with some people heading for high ground to some sort of Arcs to save themselves from upcoming flood.

Media was fueling the panic leading into it, and then, they just "forgot" to tell the truth that the tariff scare for computer / semi industry was over.

I posted the document from April 11, when it was effectively over, but retards still believe tariffs are happening.

I don't see the legacy Boomer cable media or click bait YouTubers spending equal time apologizing, as the spent fueling panic. What they do instead is they just completely disappear the story, leaving retards believing their original false narrative.

Following story to its conclusion is the "alternative media" that I subscribe to, instead of having brain filled with half truths / lies / propaganda.

OEMs did larger than usual orders as well, and now they're sitting on 9 - 12 months of subcomponent inventory that should help both smooth out the price shocks from RAM shortage in laptops, but also my result in tons of older models dampening PTL launch demand.

That uncertainty also extends to the current exemptions. They were carved out through executive order and can just as easily be removed on a whim.

I think you were the person who made this comment a while ago, and I was having hard time reconciling it with other reports of shortages. But I just came across a tidbit that you may be onto something. There is a story out that laptop OEMs have 9-12 months of memory inventory / supply secured.

Which is good news for CPU makers too, memory shortages will not be throttling sales of the CPUs

https://www.techspot.com/news/110944-laptop-makers-have-about-year-memory-stock-ride.html

 

[jdubs03]

Following story to its conclusion is the "alternative media" that I subscribe to, instead of having brain filled with half truths / lies / propaganda.

You literally just liked a comment that was filled with half truths, lies and propaganda.

Sure you win on the technical argument of a semiconductor tariff exception that was announced on liberation day, but after the main announcement. It was still haphazard as could be. And in all likelihood it’s not even legal.

 

[Joe NYC]

Intel was always going to be fine. The PC industry needs Intel and so does USG.

BTW, there is a new story out of a deal with Taiwan that upped TSMC commitment from ~100 billion prior to Trump taking office to $165 billion in first months of administration to $250 billion as of today.

With additional $250 credit guarantees by Taiwan government to smaller Taiwanese companies to set up shop in the US, to complete the full supply chain.

By my estimation, going forward, TSMC will be 50% US, 50% Taiwan for the upcoming CapEx.

There were some rumors of 2 additional packaging facilities being added to the Arizona complex, but not officially announced.

This deal moves saving Intel quite a bit down on the list of priorities for the USG. Intel will have to make it on its own. As it will, IMO, 18A gives Intel new lease on life.

 

[511]

25%

That's the ST % increase of going from MTL-U to WCL

(and also the % of total debt accumulated under Mr. Art of the Deal)

You have the benchmark for WCL cause I don't remember it being leaked.

 

[DavidC1]

Hang on wildcat lake is not foveros it's UCI-E there is no advanced packing it's 18A die with N6 PCH Cheap as hell

Yea by modern standards, where we have RAM increasing by 5x in less than 6 months.

Previously chips like Wildcat Lake were done in a monolithic die everything integrated all at 70-80mm2 die. That's dirt cheap. Wildcat Lake requires another 30mm2 or so sized die. That's Core i3 level cost by historical standards. With Atom they were selling 25mm2 CPU die with a separate PCH, even cheaper. Technically "Moore's Law" was on life support about 10 years ago, and virtually dead since 5 years ago. That's why the trend of computer prices going down for decades reversed. I can't believe they call post-GAAFET "scaling" either. They have to stack complex, heat dense dies on top of each other, calling it a fancy name and say Moore's Law continues. The biggest thing about low cost in mass production is to be as simple as possible. A planar transistor small monolithic die is the cheapest.

Get that shit out of here.

Eventually there will come a point where it's ALL about politics. I guess AT forums are going to result in banning all comment.

A 40 year old book that was written by a ghost writer shouldn't be a guiding principle because governments should most certainly not be run like a business. Stability and predictability are the role of the government. It's not as simple as extracting value from a company and then getting a golden parachute if it all crumbles.

So you believe all old methods are bad or something? Just asking.

There's no other way out of a current state of finance. Roughly $5T coming in, $7T being spent, but $40T in debt, with interest payments being greater than entire Military Industry complex payments. In 5 years some say it'll dwarf everything combined, Social Security, Healthcare and Military. Then you have the companies forcing AI with the primary pusher being in $80B in debt with no real way of creating actual useful things. Do you know that Comex Silver is severely undervalued compared to China, Japan, Dubai, and Korea, among others? That they have 300:1 Paper to real ratio? It's a false narrative and economy everywhere. A reset like Mar-la-go is preferrable to a complete crash. By the way, I like neither Trump nor Biden/Harris. You are choosing urine vs dung.

If they truly cared about stability and predictability, they should have made decisions to do so, not the way they did for the past 50 years. Governments are the penultimate monopoly. At least monopolies have to bribe them to influence policy. At least they have some form of accountability by the consumers.

 

[jdubs03]

Eventually there will come a point where it's ALL about politics. I guess AT forums are going to result in banning all comment.

It was a completely unnecessary and deceitful comment that was completely off topic. And even if it wasn’t off topic, at least get the numbers, facts, and context right.

 

[511]

Intel was always going to be fine. The PC industry needs Intel and so does USG.

Also Panther Lake isn't saving intel lol, it just lowers the cost for Intel for the compute die. That saving is rendered moot when they move to Nova Lake and the compute tile is on N2 again

Well it all depends on how much they can charge for Nova Lake all NVL contains Intel 18A/3 but not every NVL Contains N2 ...

 

[poke01]

Well it all depends on how much they can charge for Nova Lake all NVL contains Intel 18A/3 but not every NVL Contains N2 ...

The high end of each lineup is likely to be N2. Most likely U7 and U9 on laptop are N2 and for desktop the K versions are N2

 

[adroc_thurston]

and for desktop the K versions are N2

8+16 tiles are all N2p and that's what you get on desktop.

 

[511]

8+16 tiles are all N2p and that's what you get on desktop.

The high end of each lineup is likely to be N2. Most likely U7 and U9 on laptop are N2 and for desktop the K versions are N2

bLLC is the ultimate deciding factor for NVL in mainstream Desktop if they nails it margin shouldn't be a issue.

 

[adroc_thurston]

bLLC is the ultimate deciding factor for NVL in mainstream Desktop if they nails it margin shouldn't be a issue.

Noe frequency

 

[DAPUNISHER]

These forums are self policing. Multiple reports about unnecessary political talk. Deleted the worst of it. Politics are inextricably interwoven with tech. But the us vs them rhetoric is not pertinent to discussions in tech. Take it to P&N if you want to rustle jimmies.

 

[511]

Noe frequency

If you mean the ring/LLC/NGU Frequency Than sure

 

[Hulk]

bLLC is the ultimate deciding factor for NVL in mainstream Desktop if they nails it margin shouldn't be a issue.

The fact that Panter Lake IS here and IS on Intel 18A is a really great sign for Intel. This is obviously not Cannon Lake. While we don't know all the facts at this point it is becoming obvious that Panther Lake is going to be great for Intel.

Besides getting out 2 updated cpu cores they have also came through with a very competitive iGPU and modern up-to-date process node. This also bodes well for Nova Lake of course because now they have time to ramp up the frequency for desktop on 18A. The "bet the farm" on 18A and I think it's going to work out for them.

This NDA can't be lifted fast enough!

 

[regen1]

I mean yeah ASUS had to can that PTL-12Xe G14 variant altogether.

G14 being "gamery", the only iGPU(12Xe3) version vs previous year's base(RTX 5050) would've been straight up downgrade from gaming PoV plus Asus(and others) still have plenty of PTL-12Xe3 equipped models to advertise iGPU gaming perf and battery life.

For 2026(as of now) G14 has both Intel(up to RTX 5080) and AMD(up to RTX 5060) options while G16 is Intel only while for 2025 versions G14 was AMD-only and G16 was Intel-only.

 

[adroc_thurston]

If you mean the ring/LLC/NGU Frequency Than sure

No, the cores.

G14 being "gamery", the only iGPU(12Xe3) version vs previous year's base(RTX 5050) would've been straight up downgrade from gaming PoV plus Asus(and others) still have plenty of PTL-12Xe3 equipped models to advertise iGPU gaming perf and battery life.

It was a separate offering from the normal G14's.

 

[regen1]

It was a separate offering from the normal G14's.

Yeah, still doesn't make that much difference when you have other models which have similar 'Pros' of PTL-12Xe3(also from buyer's PoV: why pay G14's premium for iGPU only version when there's similar options for cheaper ?).
Feedback from CES journos is, G14 is expected with current dGPUs or at least that level of performance but could also be a supply issue though not sure of the latter.

 

[511]

The fact that Panter Lake IS here and IS on Intel 18A is a really great sign for Intel. This is obviously not Cannon Lake. While we don't know all the facts at this point it is becoming obvious that Panther Lake is going to be great for Intel.

Cannon lake is a low bar tbh should be compared to Tiger Lake in terms of process

Besides getting out 2 updated cpu cores they have also came through with a very competitive iGPU and modern up-to-date process node. This also bodes well for Nova Lake of course because now they have time to ramp up the frequency for desktop on 18A. The "bet the farm" on 18A and I think it's going to work out for them.

NVL like people said is N2/N2P for Desktop/Laptop the volume SKU is however 18AP and fully IFS.

This NDA can't be lifted fast enough!

Yeah I hope someone capable review like Geekerwan or davidhuang

 

[Hulk]

Cannon lake is a low bar tbh should be compared to Tiger Lake in terms of process

Of course. I was comparing to the worst most distasterous case. If we think back, this trend of starting a new process with mobile first, then ramping up yields/frequency for desktop started with Broadwell, which for all intents and purposes was mobile only. Before Broadwell Intel would release on desktop first and "bin away" to find the golden samples for mobile. Now it's more just get the process yielding good enough with clocks high enough for mobile, we'll get the clock up later. Total flip-flop on strategy once shrinking the process got really hard.

A long time ago I remember Anand writing about how the "leaky" parts are the ones that reach high frequency at the expense of power. The really efficient ones don't clock as high. So that would be fast/leaky for desktop and not so fast/efficient for mobile. I remember it because it was counter intuitive to how I thought at the time.

 

[Josh128]

So that would be fast/leaky for desktop and not so fast/efficient for mobile. I remember it because it was counter intuitive to how I thought at the time.

They are "leaky" because they dont fully turn off, so they can switch from an on to an off logical state (and vice versa) faster, its as simple as that.