Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes + WCL Discussion Threads

[Tigerick]

Wildcat Lake (WCL) Specs

Intel Wildcat Lake (WCL) is upcoming mobile SoC replacing Raptor Lake-U. WCL consists of 2 tiles: compute tile and PCD tile. It is true single die consists of CPU, GPU and NPU that is fabbed by 18-A process. Last time I checked, PCD tile is fabbed by TSMC N6 process. They are connected through UCIe, not D2D; a first from Intel. Expecting launching in Q1 2026.

		Intel Raptor Lake U	Intel Wildcat Lake 15W?	Intel Lunar Lake		Intel Panther Lake 4+4+4
Launch Date		Q1-2024	Q2-2026	Q3-2024		Q1-2026
Model		Intel 150U	Intel Core 7	Core Ultra 7 268V		Core Ultra 7 365
Dies		2	2	2		3
Node		Intel 7 + ?	Intel 18-A + TSMC N6	TSMC N3B + N6		Intel 18-A + Intel 3 + TSMC N6
CPU		2 P-core + 8 E-cores	2 P-core + 4 LP E-cores	4 P-core + 4 LP E-cores		4 P-core + 4 LP E-cores
Threads		12	6	8		8
Max Clock		5.4 GHz	?	5 GHz		4.8 GHz
L3 Cache		12 MB		12 MB		12 MB
TDP		15 - 55 W	15 W ?	17 - 37 W		25 - 55 W
Memory		128-bit LPDDR5-5200	64-bit LPDDR5	128-bit LPDDR5x-8533		128-bit LPDDR5x-7467
Size		96 GB		32 GB		128 GB
Bandwidth				136 GB/s
GPU		Intel Graphics	Intel Graphics	Arc 140V		Intel Graphics
RT		No	No	YES		YES
EU / Xe		96 EU	2 Xe	8 Xe		4 Xe
Max Clock		1.3 GHz	?	2 GHz		2.5 GHz
NPU		GNA 3.0	18 TOPS	48 TOPS		49 TOPS

As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.

 

[511]

Wildcat Lake doesn't seem that cheap in a traditional sense to me either. It's only cheap in a relative sense in modern day terms. You couldn't beat costs of an 80mm2 monolithic die on an older process. Wildcat Lake is that plus another die for IO on Foveros, and a Base silicon tile.

Hang on wildcat lake is not foveros it's UCI-E there is no advanced packing it's 18A die with N6 PCH Cheap as hell

 

[MoistOintment]

The change of the decisions regarding tariffs isn't just done on a whim. The book Art of the Deal describes how Trump thinks in regards to making business deals in general. Some think this is an overarching strategy to eventually devalue the US dollar enough to make payments on the exorbitant debt possible. The Mar-a-lago deal for example talked about a potential radically devaluation of the US dollar in the tune of ~90%, which also makes return to manufacturing possible. They can delay the issue, but it eventually will need to be paid in some form or another, either by paying it off or the economy turning into 3rd world country equivalent. Many, including me believe on a financial reset coming.

A 40 year old book that was written by a ghost writer shouldn't be a guiding principle because governments should most certainly not be run like a business. Stability and predictability are the role of the government. It's not as simple as extracting value from a company and then getting a golden parachute if it all crumbles.

Debating whether tariffs had an impact on inventory due to actual price increases or if they just distorted inventory and decision making as a result of (legally questionable) tariff uncertainty, that then got exemptions after Huang and Cook had private dinners with him, ultimately is besides the point.

If domestic manufacturing requires collapsing the dollar, it's ultimately not worth that trade off and the entire goal is fundamentally flawed. I do think advances in robotics and autonomy will ultimately make off-shoring of production less desirable at some future point, and I do fundamentally support onshoring critical manufacturing, and I don't think a reasonable, congressionally approved tariff plan is a bad idea either - but ultimately, expecting predictable tax rates and policy so these companies can plan their roadmaps and procurement with some confidence is fundamentally necessary.

I have much more to say about the rest, but I think I've already gone off topic enough.

I know that tariff uncertainty impacted our decision making, and we're a company that imports very little compared to most Fortune 1000's

In other news, WCL leaked GB6 numbers outperforming the 165U is quite impressive

 

[511]

In other news, WCL leaked GB6 numbers outperforming the 165U is quite impressive

WCL ST performance and battery life is in same ballpark as LNL

 

[Hulk]

A 40 year old book that was written by a ghost writer shouldn't be a guiding principle because governments should most certainly not be run like a business. Stability and predictability are the role of the government. It's not as simple as extracting value from a company and then getting a golden parachute if it all crumbles.

Debating whether tariffs had an impact on inventory due to actual price increases or if they just distorted inventory and decision making as a result of (legally questionable) tariff uncertainty, that then got exemptions after Huang and Cook had private dinners with him, ultimately is besides the point.

If domestic manufacturing requires collapsing the dollar, it's ultimately not worth that trade off and the entire goal is fundamentally flawed. I do think advances in robotics and autonomy will ultimately make off-shoring of production less desirable at some future point, and I do fundamentally support onshoring critical manufacturing, and I don't think a reasonable, congressionally approved tariff plan is a bad idea either - but ultimately, expecting predictable tax rates and policy so these companies can plan their roadmaps and procurement with some confidence is fundamentally necessary.

I have much more to say about the rest, but I think I've already gone off topic enough.

I know that tariff uncertainty impacted our decision making, and we're a company that imports very little compared to most Fortune 1000's

In other news, WCL leaked GB6 numbers outperforming the 165U is quite impressive

Running it NOT like a business and we are almost 40 trillion in debt is the result.

But yet, Panther Lake looks good for Intel.

 

[MoistOintment]

Running it NOT like a business and we are almost 40 trillion in debt is the result.

But yet, Panther Lake looks good for Intel.

25%

That's the ST % increase of going from MTL-U to WCL

(and also the % of total debt accumulated under Mr. Art of the Deal)

 

[Hulk]

25%

That's the ST % increase of going from MTL-U to WCL

(and also the % of total debt accumulated under Mr. Art of the Deal)

Panther Lake is going to save Intel.

(Sleepy Joe took us from 27.8T to 38T with his eyes closed. Drained the oil reserves, opened the borders, drove up gas prices,.... eggs were unaffordable by the time he was done, we were heading for $1000 loaves of bread like the good old USSR. Trying to fix the D's mess but it's a big one)

 

[jdubs03]

(Sleepy Joe took us from 27.8T to 38T with his eyes closed. Drained the oil reserves, opened the borders, drove up gas prices,.... eggs were unaffordable by the time he was done, we were heading for $1000 loaves of bread like the good old USSR. Trying to fix the D's mess but it's a big one)

Get that shit out of here.

 

[poke01]

Panther Lake is going to save Intel.

Intel was always going to be fine. The PC industry needs Intel and so does USG.

Also Panther Lake isn't saving intel lol, it just lowers the cost for Intel for the compute die. That saving is rendered moot when they move to Nova Lake and the compute tile is on N2 again

 

[Joe NYC]

There were several months of uncertainty surrounding Tarrif's that absolutely did impact orders that are having ripple effects to today, where we'd wake up and see real or potential changes to tariffs just tweeted out by the president. At least for us (not the semi-industry), we did some larger then usual bulk orders of laptops, docks, and monitors to build up inventory during that time.

Sure things can happen in real world due to panic of false expectations. But it does not make those expectations (of higher tariffs) true. They turned out to be false.

For example, some people expected widespread panic due to Y2K, which turned into a good business for building bunkers, survival kits, power generators, emergency food supply kits.

Just weeks ago, similar panic took place in some African nations, with some people heading for high ground to some sort of Arcs to save themselves from upcoming flood.

Media was fueling the panic leading into it, and then, they just "forgot" to tell the truth that the tariff scare for computer / semi industry was over.

I posted the document from April 11, when it was effectively over, but retards still believe tariffs are happening.

I don't see the legacy Boomer cable media or click bait YouTubers spending equal time apologizing, as the spent fueling panic. What they do instead is they just completely disappear the story, leaving retards believing their original false narrative.

Following story to its conclusion is the "alternative media" that I subscribe to, instead of having brain filled with half truths / lies / propaganda.

OEMs did larger than usual orders as well, and now they're sitting on 9 - 12 months of subcomponent inventory that should help both smooth out the price shocks from RAM shortage in laptops, but also my result in tons of older models dampening PTL launch demand.

That uncertainty also extends to the current exemptions. They were carved out through executive order and can just as easily be removed on a whim.

I think you were the person who made this comment a while ago, and I was having hard time reconciling it with other reports of shortages. But I just came across a tidbit that you may be onto something. There is a story out that laptop OEMs have 9-12 months of memory inventory / supply secured.

Which is good news for CPU makers too, memory shortages will not be throttling sales of the CPUs

https://www.techspot.com/news/110944-laptop-makers-have-about-year-memory-stock-ride.html

 

[jdubs03]

Following story to its conclusion is the "alternative media" that I subscribe to, instead of having brain filled with half truths / lies / propaganda.

You literally just liked a comment that was filled with half truths, lies and propaganda.

Sure you win on the technical argument of a semiconductor tariff exception that was announced on liberation day, but after the main announcement. It was still haphazard as could be. And in all likelihood it’s not even legal.

 

[Joe NYC]

Intel was always going to be fine. The PC industry needs Intel and so does USG.

BTW, there is a new story out of a deal with Taiwan that upped TSMC commitment from ~100 billion prior to Trump taking office to $165 billion in first months of administration to $250 billion as of today.

With additional $250 credit guarantees by Taiwan government to smaller Taiwanese companies to set up shop in the US, to complete the full supply chain.

By my estimation, going forward, TSMC will be 50% US, 50% Taiwan for the upcoming CapEx.

There were some rumors of 2 additional packaging facilities being added to the Arizona complex, but not officially announced.

This deal moves saving Intel quite a bit down on the list of priorities for the USG. Intel will have to make it on its own. As it will, IMO, 18A gives Intel new lease on life.

 

[Joe NYC]

You literally just liked a comment that was filled with half truths, lies and propaganda.

That the US was in, what is popularly described as the "Late Brezhnev Era"?

A lot of parallels there, if you are a student of history. That's why I gave it a "Like"

Brezhnev's mind and brain were literally somewhere else, and it ended up reflected in the eventual demise of USSR. The snowball started rolling under Brezhnev and turned into an avalanche that could not be stopped.

Maybe we stopped that snowball rolling down in the US just in the nick of time, or maybe we did not, maybe it was too late. We will find out eventually.

 

[511]

25%

That's the ST % increase of going from MTL-U to WCL

(and also the % of total debt accumulated under Mr. Art of the Deal)

You have the benchmark for WCL cause I don't remember it being leaked.

 

[DavidC1]

Hang on wildcat lake is not foveros it's UCI-E there is no advanced packing it's 18A die with N6 PCH Cheap as hell

Yea by modern standards, where we have RAM increasing by 5x in less than 6 months.

Previously chips like Wildcat Lake were done in a monolithic die everything integrated all at 70-80mm2 die. That's dirt cheap. Wildcat Lake requires another 30mm2 or so sized die. That's Core i3 level cost by historical standards. With Atom they were selling 25mm2 CPU die with a separate PCH, even cheaper. Technically "Moore's Law" was on life support about 10 years ago, and virtually dead since 5 years ago. That's why the trend of computer prices going down for decades reversed. I can't believe they call post-GAAFET "scaling" either. They have to stack complex, heat dense dies on top of each other, calling it a fancy name and say Moore's Law continues. The biggest thing about low cost in mass production is to be as simple as possible. A planar transistor small monolithic die is the cheapest.

Get that shit out of here.

Eventually there will come a point where it's ALL about politics. I guess AT forums are going to result in banning all comment.

A 40 year old book that was written by a ghost writer shouldn't be a guiding principle because governments should most certainly not be run like a business. Stability and predictability are the role of the government. It's not as simple as extracting value from a company and then getting a golden parachute if it all crumbles.

So you believe all old methods are bad or something? Just asking.

There's no other way out of a current state of finance. Roughly $5T coming in, $7T being spent, but $40T in debt, with interest payments being greater than entire Military Industry complex payments. In 5 years some say it'll dwarf everything combined, Social Security, Healthcare and Military. Then you have the companies forcing AI with the primary pusher being in $80B in debt with no real way of creating actual useful things. Do you know that Comex Silver is severely undervalued compared to China, Japan, Dubai, and Korea, among others? That they have 300:1 Paper to real ratio? It's a false narrative and economy everywhere. A reset like Mar-la-go is preferrable to a complete crash. By the way, I like neither Trump nor Biden/Harris. You are choosing urine vs dung.

If they truly cared about stability and predictability, they should have made decisions to do so, not the way they did for the past 50 years. Governments are the penultimate monopoly. At least monopolies have to bribe them to influence policy. At least they have some form of accountability by the consumers.

 

[jdubs03]

Eventually there will come a point where it's ALL about politics. I guess AT forums are going to result in banning all comment.

It was a completely unnecessary and deceitful comment that was completely off topic. And even if it wasn’t off topic, at least get the numbers, facts, and context right.

 

[511]

Intel was always going to be fine. The PC industry needs Intel and so does USG.

Also Panther Lake isn't saving intel lol, it just lowers the cost for Intel for the compute die. That saving is rendered moot when they move to Nova Lake and the compute tile is on N2 again

Well it all depends on how much they can charge for Nova Lake all NVL contains Intel 18A/3 but not every NVL Contains N2 ...