Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes + WCL Discussion Threads

[Tigerick]

Wildcat Lake (WCL) Specs

Intel Wildcat Lake (WCL) is upcoming mobile SoC replacing Raptor Lake-U. WCL consists of 2 tiles: compute tile and PCD tile. It is true single die consists of CPU, GPU and NPU that is fabbed by 18-A process. Last time I checked, PCD tile is fabbed by TSMC N6 process. They are connected through UCIe, not D2D; a first from Intel. Expecting launching in Q1 2026.

		Intel Raptor Lake U	Intel Wildcat Lake 15W?	Intel Lunar Lake		Intel Panther Lake 4+4+4
Launch Date		Q1-2024	Q2-2026	Q3-2024		Q1-2026
Model		Intel 150U	Intel Core 7	Core Ultra 7 268V		Core Ultra 7 365
Dies		2	2	2		3
Node		Intel 7 + ?	Intel 18-A + TSMC N6	TSMC N3B + N6		Intel 18-A + Intel 3 + TSMC N6
CPU		2 P-core + 8 E-cores	2 P-core + 4 LP E-cores	4 P-core + 4 LP E-cores		4 P-core + 4 LP E-cores
Threads		12	6	8		8
Max Clock		5.4 GHz	?	5 GHz		4.8 GHz
L3 Cache		12 MB		12 MB		12 MB
TDP		15 - 55 W	15 W ?	17 - 37 W		25 - 55 W
Memory		128-bit LPDDR5-5200	64-bit LPDDR5	128-bit LPDDR5x-8533		128-bit LPDDR5x-7467
Size		96 GB		32 GB		128 GB
Bandwidth				136 GB/s
GPU		Intel Graphics	Intel Graphics	Arc 140V		Intel Graphics
RT		No	No	YES		YES
EU / Xe		96 EU	2 Xe	8 Xe		4 Xe
Max Clock		1.3 GHz	?	2 GHz		2.5 GHz
NPU		GNA 3.0	18 TOPS	48 TOPS		49 TOPS

As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.

 

[ToTTenTranz]

AT3 APU is 384b LP6.
AT4 one has to share the FP10 socket so 128b L5x it is (PHY's a combo, so dGP SKUs get LP6 too).

There's no follow-up socket for AT4 APU so it can use LP6?

 

[Joe NYC]

Sources? Not walls of text. Prove to me that the 10% Feb 4 China and April 5 (everyone else) tariff is not in effect. If you do that, you win.

Edit: Biased Source

You are still stuck on intermediate steps. Such as the link to "biased" source, which is the source that writes the actual freaking rules (executive branch). Intermediate step of 125% was reversed long, long time ago.

10% tariffs has exemptions, making most of the computing goods we discuss on these boards exempt.

We are stuck on a loop:

You: "There is a tariff"
Me: "But the computing goods we talk here about are exempt"
You: "But there is a tariff"
Me: "Probably is on socks and underwear, but not on semis"
You: "But there WAS a tariff"
Me: "There were some short-lasting tariffs, but they were cancelled shortly afterwords."
You: "But there is a tariff"
Me: "Nobody pays it on semis and computers, because there are excluded"
You: "But there is a tariff. Prove there is no tariff"

List of the exemptions is here, as clarification / addendum.

Clarification of Exceptions Under Executive Order 14257 of April 2, 2025, as Amended

MEMORANDUM FOR THE SECRETARY OF STATE THE SECRETARY OF THE TREASURY THE SECRETARY OF COMMERCE THE SECRETARY OF HOMELAND SECURITY THE UNITED STATES TRADE

www.whitehouse.gov

Let me know if you need help with the product codes and categories that are excluded from tariffs. Clue: they cover (exclude) virtually all of the computer equipment / semiconductors.

 

[Joe NYC]

I doubt anyone wants to play along and guess how much the Foveros base tile adds to Intel's mainstream client cost?

I am curious too. But I have not seen it quantified anywhere. It's not really just the cost of the base tile, but the full packaging cost.

Intel is able to achieve flexibility using chiplets, in the range of segments that PTL can address, but at a cost in every one of the segments (except the wildcat).

We will see how this tradeoff works out in the long run. It is a more elegant approach, if you exclude the costs.

 

[Joe NYC]

There's no follow-up socket for AT4 APU so it can use LP6?

Hopefully, there is an LPDDR6 follow-up to FP10, but right now, it is not on any leaked schedule for 2026-2027.

 

[fastandfurious6]

Everything is going down the drain. Especially Windows as Microsoft is adding copilot to file explorer. That’s going too far I think. I have to move Linux on my desktop soon and run Windows in a VM. It’s not going to safe from 2 years from now.

I don’t copilot to read my documents or delete them.

How Microsoft Copilot May Soon Appear Inside Windows 11 File Explorer

References found by users within a preview build of Windows 11 hint to more Copilot integrations within various features of the OS.

hothardware.com

actually real.... the Year of the Linux Desktop is finally coming sponsored by sam altman lol

 

[Joe NYC]

Oh, I would say that I know plenty of pretty good sized businesses (10's of billions a year) that did rush a bunch of stuff from China and other Asian countries to get buffered up before the tariffs hit .... but still, the tariffs are VERY real and are hitting almost everyone now. I expect that unless the tariffs are overturned (might see this on Wednesday ... woot!), inflation will really take off in 2026.

But these tariffs don't apply to PCs, smart phones, computers, semiconductors etc.

There were bunch of intermediate steps that companies undertook during the weeks of confusion, but that is all water under the bridge with no trace of it left in the market as of today (in semi industry).

That's where the disconnect is. Most people fell for fairy tales and retardation from sources, like legacy "Boomer" media, MLID, Gamers Nexus. Most people (who in their own minds are legends) "know" there are tariffs affecting semiconductor industry, even though in reality, these tariffs don't exist, round to ~zero.

And (paradoxically), inflation is lower in first 9 months of tariffs than in years preceding the tariffs.

As far as reversal of the tariffs, as we discovered today, Supreme Court is quite hesitant to blow a 1/4 to 1/2 trillion dollar hole in the US budget, even if it was on good grounds (constitutionally) to reverse the tariff.

BTW, since we are on tariffs and Intel thread: There are a whole bunch of Intel Fan - er - "Twitterers", who really lived for Trump imposing semi tariffs on TSMC, which would pave the way for glorious return of Intel. No less than "The Return of the King".

They went between delusion of semiconductor tariffs already being in place or about to be imposed imminently. But some 9 months later, they woke up to realization that tariffs are not in place, and they are not about to be imposed. They replaced the tariff delusion, which would "Make Intel Great Again" with new delusions, such as hoping for war with China, and / or AI so up-ending the supply chain of fabless companies so much that fabless companies will have no other choice but to all sign up with Intel Foundry.

 

[511]

Gaming is one place where x86 cannot be defeated.

Software in general is limited on MacOS vs x86 that's not even a comparison lol you can run so many stuff that Mac can't not just games even legacy stuff with Rosetta emulation breaks.

 

[MoistOintment]

But these tariffs don't apply to PCs, smart phones, computers, semiconductors etc.

There were bunch of intermediate steps that companies undertook during the weeks of confusion, but that is all water under the bridge with no trace of it left in the market as of today (in semi industry).

That's where the disconnect is. Most people fell for fairy tales and retardation from sources, like legacy "Boomer" media, MLID, Gamers Nexus. Most people (who in their own minds are legends) "know" there are tariffs affecting semiconductor industry, even though in reality, these tariffs don't exist, round to ~zero.

And (paradoxically), inflation is lower in first 9 months of tariffs than in years preceding the tariffs.

As far as reversal of the tariffs, as we discovered today, Supreme Court is quite hesitant to blow a 1/4 to 1/2 trillion dollar hole in the US budget, even if it was on good grounds (constitutionally) to reverse the tariff.

BTW, since we are on tariffs and Intel thread: There are a whole bunch of Intel Fan - er - "Twitterers", who really lived for Trump imposing semi tariffs on TSMC, which would pave the way for glorious return of Intel. No less than "The Return of the King".

They went between delusion of semiconductor tariffs already being in place or about to be imposed imminently. But some 9 months later, they woke up to realization that tariffs are not in place, and they are not about to be imposed. They replaced the tariff delusion, which would "Make Intel Great Again" with new delusions, such as hoping for war with China, and / or AI so up-ending the supply chain of fabless companies so much that fabless companies will have no other choice but to all sign up with Intel Foundry.

There were several months of uncertainty surrounding Tarrif's that absolutely did impact orders that are having ripple effects to today, where we'd wake up and see real or potential changes to tariffs just tweeted out by the president. At least for us (not the semi-industry), we did some larger then usual bulk orders of laptops, docks, and monitors to build up inventory during that time.

OEMs did larger than usual orders as well, and now they're sitting on 9 - 12 months of subcomponent inventory that should help both smooth out the price shocks from RAM shortage in laptops, but also my result in tons of older models dampening PTL launch demand.

That uncertainty also extends to the current exemptions. They were carved out through executive order and can just as easily be removed on a whim.

 

[511]

OEMs did larger than usual orders as well, and now they're sitting on 9 - 12 months of subcomponent inventory that should help both smooth out the price shocks from RAM shortage in laptops, but also my result in tons of older models dampening PTL launch demand.

what did they order though that's the question cause PTL booking must have been made 1-2 quarters back

 

[MoistOintment]

what did they order though that's the question cause PTL booking must have been made 1-2 quarters back

Allegedly memory is part of the inventory, based on the context of Nish Neelalojanan's comment to Tom's (although the actual list of subcomponents isn't given)

 

[Khato]

It's Intel 16(22nm FFL) for all reason and a very cheap node and considering it's passive i guess it would be slightly more than Silicon Substrate cost.

Exactly. The per part cost ends up lower than monolithic due to the higher yields on the individual expensive-process tiles. The primary con to the approach is the one time mask cost for each of the tiles, but that gets negated by Intel's volume.

 

[poke01]

the dell XPS X7 is Out of stock.

That’s not good how many did dell even make?

 

[Hulk]

the dell XPS X7 is Out of stock.

That’s not good how many did dell even make?

Pricing is not good. $2200 with OLED.

Comparable to my Asus ProArtPX13 with HX370/4050/32GB/1TB that I caught on sale at Best Buy for $1199.

Nearly double the price for perhaps a bit better cpu performance and battery life? It's a good looking unit but I'm not a buyer at that price.

 

[poke01]

Pricing is not good. $2200 with OLED.

Comparable to my Asus ProArtPX13 with HX370/4050/32GB/1TB that I caught on sale at Best Buy for $1199.

Nearly double the price for perhaps a bit better cpu performance and battery life? It's a good looking unit but I'm not a buyer at that price.

The IO is also bad. Only 3 USB-C ports and a headphone jack on a $2000 laptop is criminal. No HDMI or SD card.


Panther Lake even the 12 Xe SKU belongs in <$1500 laptops not $2000 ones.

 

[branch_suggestion]

the dell XPS X7 is Out of stock.

That’s not good how many did dell even make?

18A don't yield so good.

Panther Lake even the 12 Xe SKU belongs in <$1500 laptops not $2000 ones.

Perhaps AMD wasn't lying about PTL bGPU being more of a price competitor to STXH after all.
Also this is just the 358H, 388H is gonna be legit unobtainium.

 

[adroc_thurston]

Perhaps AMD wasn't lying about PTL bGPU being more of a price competitor to STXH after all.

Well, PTL is a normal laptop platform; far higher volume theorethically.

Also this is just the 358H, 388H is gonna be legit unobtainium.

I mean yeah ASUS had to can that PTL-12Xe G14 variant altogether.

 

[poke01]

Also this is just the 358H, 388H is gonna be legit unobtainium

The launch videos are all going to be 388H. I haven’t seen a single laptop on preorder either the 388H, maybe launch day is when it’s available

 

[ToTTenTranz]

Have we seen these before in this thread?






These prices are pretty nice, especially considering these are high end OLED models.

 

[Josh128]

Have we seen these before in this thread?

View attachment 136763


View attachment 136765

These prices are pretty nice, especially considering these are high end OLED models.

16" plus 32GB plus OLED? This is fantastic actually. Why the gigantic price discrepancy between this and the XPS above??

 

[DavidC1]

Exactly. The per part cost ends up lower than monolithic due to the higher yields on the individual expensive-process tiles. The primary con to the approach is the one time mask cost for each of the tiles, but that gets negated by Intel's volume.

See, I'm not sure if it's actually lower cost. It's only lower cost if the plan was the IO die/PCH was going to be part of the monolithic die anyway.

Because previous to Tiles the PCH on the -U chips were just off-die same package, and it was using N-1 Intel process. Now this was part of the problem Intel couldn't get idle power low enough, because not being monolithic is why it couldn't idle well in reality. So if the only solution to fix that is moving it to the same die, then it's a potential cost saver because Foveros theoretically offers lower power and faster communication. It's not a cost saver compared to the on package organic interposer like on Raptorlake and predecessors. I would say rather the Tiles approach is a significant cost adder.

Wildcat Lake doesn't seem that cheap in a traditional sense to me either. It's only cheap in a relative sense in modern day terms. You couldn't beat costs of an 80mm2 monolithic die on an older process. Wildcat Lake is that plus another die for IO on Foveros, and a Base silicon tile.

 

[poke01]

Have we seen these before in this thread?

View attachment 136763


View attachment 136765

These prices are pretty nice, especially considering these are high end OLED models.

That hp laptop increased in price

https://www.bestbuy.com/product/hp-omnibook-x-copilot-pc-16-2k-oled-touchscreen-laptop-intel-core-ultra-x7-358h-2026-32gb-memory-1tb-ssd-meteor-silver/JJGW34X2K5

It’s now $1449. Still a good price for a 16”

 

[controlflow]

Pricing is not good. $2200 with OLED.

Comparable to my Asus ProArtPX13 with HX370/4050/32GB/1TB that I caught on sale at Best Buy for $1199.

Nearly double the price for perhaps a bit better cpu performance and battery life? It's a good looking unit but I'm not a buyer at that price.

That price has more to do with the XPS than PTL. Even the high end Thinkpad X9-15P with PTL aren't as expensive as the XPS. Not sure why Dell prices them so high. They are going for both an Apple MacBook pro aesthetic and price.

 

[DavidC1]

16" plus 32GB plus OLED? This is fantastic actually. Why the gigantic price discrepancy between this and the XPS above??

There was an article where they said prices on business lines will increase anywhere from 10-30%, which includes monitors.

There has to be some effect of the RAM/NAND price increases on the end user.

There were several months of uncertainty surrounding Tarrif's that absolutely did impact orders that are having ripple effects to today, where we'd wake up and see real or potential changes to tariffs just tweeted out by the president. At least for us (not the semi-industry), we did some larger then usual bulk orders of laptops, docks, and monitors to build up inventory during that time.

OEMs did larger than usual orders as well, and now they're sitting on 9 - 12 months of subcomponent inventory that should help both smooth out the price shocks from RAM shortage in laptops, but also my result in tons of older models dampening PTL launch demand.

That uncertainty also extends to the current exemptions. They were carved out through executive order and can just as easily be removed on a whim.

He's technically right on not really affecting semis directly. It might have an indirect effect like perception by the manufacturers.

The change of the decisions regarding tariffs isn't just done on a whim. The book Art of the Deal describes how Trump thinks in regards to making business deals in general. Some think this is an overarching strategy to eventually devalue the US dollar enough to make payments on the exorbitant debt possible. The Mar-a-lago deal for example talked about a potential radically devaluation of the US dollar in the tune of ~90%, which also makes return to manufacturing possible. They can delay the issue, but it eventually will need to be paid in some form or another, either by paying it off or the economy turning into 3rd world country equivalent. Many, including me believe on a financial reset coming.

 

[Josh128]

Many, including me believe on a financial reset coming.

Total collapse of the dollar and therefore worldwide currency? What do you envision?

 

[511]

Perhaps AMD wasn't lying about PTL bGPU being more of a price competitor to STXH after all.
Also this is just the 358H, 388H is gonna be legit unobtainium.

You can't really blame dell over pricing XPS to Every other guy there are MSI/HP Laptops at $1300

That price has more to do with the XPS than PTL. Even the high end Thinkpad X9-15P with PTL aren't as expensive as the XPS. Not sure why Dell prices them so high. They are going for both an Apple MacBook pro aesthetic and price.

Way to Milk XPS IP