Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes + WCL Discussion Threads

[Tigerick]

Wildcat Lake (WCL) Specs

Intel Wildcat Lake (WCL) is upcoming mobile SoC replacing Raptor Lake-U. WCL consists of 2 tiles: compute tile and PCD tile. It is true single die consists of CPU, GPU and NPU that is fabbed by 18-A process. Last time I checked, PCD tile is fabbed by TSMC N6 process. They are connected through UCIe, not D2D; a first from Intel. Expecting launching in Q1 2026.

		Intel Raptor Lake U	Intel Wildcat Lake 15W?	Intel Lunar Lake		Intel Panther Lake 4+0+4
Launch Date		Q1-2024	Q2-2026	Q3-2024		Q1-2026
Model		Intel 150U	Intel Core 7	Core Ultra 7 268V		Core Ultra 7 365
Dies		2	2	2		3
Node		Intel 7 + ?	Intel 18-A + TSMC N6	TSMC N3B + N6		Intel 18-A + Intel 3 + TSMC N6
CPU		2 P-core + 8 E-cores	2 P-core + 4 LP E-cores	4 P-core + 4 LP E-cores		4 P-core + 4 LP E-cores
Threads		12	6	8		8
Max Clock		5.4 GHz	?	5 GHz		4.8 GHz
L3 Cache		12 MB		12 MB		12 MB
TDP		15 - 55 W	15 W ?	17 - 37 W		25 - 55 W
Memory		128-bit LPDDR5-5200	64-bit LPDDR5	128-bit LPDDR5x-8533		128-bit LPDDR5x-7467
Size		96 GB		32 GB		128 GB
Bandwidth				136 GB/s
GPU		Intel Graphics	Intel Graphics	Arc 140V		Intel Graphics
RT		No	No	YES		YES
EU / Xe		96 EU	2 Xe	8 Xe		4 Xe
Max Clock		1.3 GHz	?	2 GHz		2.5 GHz
NPU		GNA 3.0	18 TOPS	48 TOPS		49 TOPS

As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.

 

[igor_kavinski]

wasn't P4 32bit only. wouldn't that limit RAM to 4GB?

No, young one. It debuted as 32-bit but Intel was forced to launch 64-bit P4 thanks to Athlon 64 (Microsoft played their part in backstabbing Intel and working with AMD to bring out Windows XP 64-bit).

Intel's 15 Most Unforgettable x86 CPUs

We've seen a lot of Intel CPUs, but a few are real stand-outs. We pick 15 of the most memorable in anticipation of Nehalem, expected to be Intel's next big landmark.

www.tomshardware.com

64-bit

In computer architecture, 64-bit computing is the use of processors that have datapath widths, integer size, and memory addresses of 64 bits (8 octets) wide. Also, 64-bit CPU and ALU architectures are those that are based on registers, address buses, or data buses of that size. From the software...

microsoft.fandom.com

 

[Gideon]

No, young one. It debuted as 32-bit but Intel was forced to launch 64-bit P4 thanks to Athlon 64 (Microsoft played their part in backstabbing Intel and working with AMD to bring out Windows XP 64-bit).

Intel's 15 Most Unforgettable x86 CPUs

We've seen a lot of Intel CPUs, but a few are real stand-outs. We pick 15 of the most memorable in anticipation of Nehalem, expected to be Intel's next big landmark.

www.tomshardware.com

64-bit

In computer architecture, 64-bit computing is the use of processors that have datapath widths, integer size, and memory addresses of 64 bits (8 octets) wide. Also, 64-bit CPU and ALU architectures are those that are based on registers, address buses, or data buses of that size. From the software...

microsoft.fandom.com

Right, I totally forgot that Prescott was already 64bit.

Tended to avoid desktop Intel CPUs ever since the P4 till Core 2. And as Core 1 (Yonah) was still 32 bit (and I remember the AMD64 saga very well) I somehow had a brainfart

 

[naukkis]

What was the most powerful P4 server CPU? Did those get to have anything like 32GB RDRAM?

Rdram was only used on Willamette and early Northwood - they swiched to DDR-ram with Granite bay long before Prescott. 32-bit Xeons did have 36 bit physical address space so 64GB ram limit.

 

[Hulk]

Rdram was only used on Willamette and early Northwood - they swiched to DDR-ram with Granite bay long before Prescott. 32-bit Xeons did have 36 bit physical address space so 64GB ram limit.

I had a Willamette and it was a dud IMO, barely faster than my P3 despite having an 800MHz clock advantage. P4 was pretty good with Northwood but as we know it had a short lifespan when frequency didn't scale to 10GHz like Intel told us it would

 

[igor_kavinski]

I had a Willamette

More details please!

Was it the RDRAM version? Frequency? What did you do with it after you no longer had any use for it?

 

[Hulk]

It was a hand me down from my parents who decided to try a Mac. P4 1.8 SDRAM. Sold it on e-bay as soon as Northwood was available. Sold that as soon as Conroe came out. Sold that for Sandy Bridge. Sold that for Haswell. Sold that for Alder Lake. Sold that for Alder Lake +. Sold that for Alder Lake ++ and here I am.

 

[Thunder 57]

It was a hand me down from my parents who decided to try a Mac. P4 1.8 SDRAM. Sold it on e-bay as soon as Northwood was available. Sold that as soon as Conroe came out. Sold that for Sandy Bridge. Sold that for Haswell. Sold that for Alder Lake. Sold that for Alder Lake +. Sold that for Alder Lake ++ and here I am.

Um, there were no P4 Macs. Not sure what you are remembering but Apple didn't switch to Intel until the Core 2 days.

 

[Gideon]

Um, there were no P4 Macs. Not sure what you are remembering but Apple didn't switch to Intel until the Core 2 days.

He was given a P4 (that wasn't a mac) as a habd-me-down cause his parents bought a (PowerPC) mac instead

 

[Thunder 57]

He was given a P4 (that wasn't a mac) as a habd-me-down cause his parents bought a (PowerPC) mac instead

OK, that makes more sense.

 

[Thunder 57]

It was a hand me down from my parents who decided to try a Mac. P4 1.8 SDRAM. Sold it on e-bay as soon as Northwood was available. Sold that as soon as Conroe came out. Sold that for Sandy Bridge. Sold that for Haswell. Sold that for Alder Lake. Sold that for Alder Lake +. Sold that for Alder Lake ++ and here I am.

So you went from a 12000 to a 13000 to a 14000? Do you like lighting money on fire? Funny too how critics of AM4 say that no one upgrades a CPU on the same board. Clearly people do. You've gone through three CPU's on the same board it sounds like.

 

[poke01]

So you went from a 12000 to a 13000 to a 14000? Do you like lighting money on fire? Funny too how critics of AM4 say that no one upgrades a CPU on the same board. Clearly people do. You've gone through three CPU's on the same board it sounds like.

Hulk is a true Intel enthusiast.

 

[Thibsie]

Um, there were no P4 Macs. Not sure what you are remembering but Apple didn't switch to Intel until the Core 2 days.

No, Core 1 Solo and Duo in the first version.

 

[igor_kavinski]

P4 1.8 SDRAM.

Oh man! My condolences. That was the most atrocious P4! (I may have that from an unwanted office PC I just acquired. Would be fun to give it a whirl to see how bad a computing experience could be).

You would work on that only if you WANTED to enjoy seeing your PC work step by step, with each step ranging from a second to several minutes, depending on the computing complexity of the step! It was like a modern day 8086 for Windows!

 

[Hulk]

Hulk is a true Intel enthusiast.

It's bad but not as bad as it appears. I upgraded willingly from the 12700k to the 13,900k. That was a nice upgrade until the 13900k degraded. I got a full refund from Intel. Used a 13,600k for a bit to tide me over and then sold that and one to the 14,900k, which is where I am today.

 

[igor_kavinski]

the 14,900k, which is where I am today.

If you don't mind, could you install Intel XTU and post screenshots of the various tabs in the "crashing games" thread? It could serve as a decent reference for the rest of us to see what a 14th gen CPU with proper current/voltage settings looks like.

 

[igor_kavinski]

Do you like lighting money on fire?

He's an actual power user.

 

[ondma]

It's bad but not as bad as it appears. I upgraded willingly from the 12700k to the 13,900k. That was a nice upgrade until the 13900k degraded. I got a full refund from Intel. Used a 13,600k for a bit to tide me over and then sold that and one to the 14,900k, which is where I am today..

Too bad that you are getting so much flack for your choices; it is really nobody else;s business. Its your money, right? And upgrading CPUs is a relatively inexpensive hobby compared to a lot of things you could spend money on.

 

[igor_kavinski]

And upgrading CPUs is a relatively inexpensive hobby compared to a lot of things you could spend money on.

Actually very true. Much cheaper than spending money on a human relationship and then dealing with complaints, backstabbing or betrayal. Very few lucky people have successful beneficial relationships without losing money in the process

 

[Hulk]

Too bad that you are getting so much flack for your choices; it is really nobody else;s business. Its your money, right? And upgrading CPUs is a relatively inexpensive hobby compared to a lot of things you could spend money on.

I hear you but for the most part I think everybody around here is opinionated but respectful. That's why I'm here and I've come to really enjoy and appreciate all of the varied opinions. It's kind of neat as I'm sure like me you've noticed that you start to get to know the personality of the person making the comments so you learn to read between the lines and can tell when someone is is poking fun (fine) or actually trying to insult or be mean. As I wrote above I think most comments around here are poking fun/playful.

If you don't mind, could you install Intel XTU and post screenshots of the various tabs in the "crashing games" thread? It could serve as a decent reference for the rest of us to see what a 14th gen CPU with proper current/voltage settings looks like.

I really don't like installing additional software that I don't need and honestly it's a busy work time of year for me.
I'm running LLC4 with a voltage of 1.3. This means that my max idle voltage, no load is <1.3V and under heavy load around 1.15 volts, which is quite reasonable. Clocks at 5.5/4.3 and HT off. Air cooled with temps always under 80C, generally closer to 70C. I'm very happy with the system as it is set up right now. Stable, cool, and very performant.

ARL or Zen 5 are going to have to bring something big to the table for me to upgrade. Then again I've turned into a bit of a "CPU junkie" so you never know...

 

[igor_kavinski]

ARL or Zen 5 are going to have to bring something big to the table for me to upgrade.

The one thing I can "foresee" is EXPO/XMP DDR5-8800 CL50 or CL60 modules. Might give a decent boost to bandwidth starved workloads and I'm guessing that it won't be that easy to run those speeds with Zen 4/Core Lake series so it could be one impetus for people to upgrade.

 

[Thunder 57]

I hear you but for the most part I think everybody around here is opinionated but respectful. That's why I'm here and I've come to really enjoy and appreciate all of the varied opinions. It's kind of neat as I'm sure like me you've noticed that you start to get to know the personality of the person making the comments so you learn to read between the lines and can tell when someone is is poking fun (fine) or actually trying to insult or be mean. As I wrote above I think most comments around here are poking fun/playful.


I really don't like installing additional software that I don't need and honestly it's a busy work time of year for me.
I'm running LLC4 with a voltage of 1.3. This means that my max idle voltage, no load is <1.3V and under heavy load around 1.15 volts, which is quite reasonable. Clocks at 5.5/4.3 and HT off. Air cooled with temps always under 80C, generally closer to 70C. I'm very happy with the system as it is set up right now. Stable, cool, and very performant.

ARL or Zen 5 are going to have to bring something big to the table for me to upgrade. Then again I've turned into a bit of a "CPU junkie" so you never know...

Makes a lot more sense now that you said how it happened. A 13900k is certainly an upgrade compared to a 12700k. Then the 13900k had issues so you got a refund and put it towards a 14900k. I was trying to poke fun but could have done a better job at it.

 

[Hulk]

Makes a lot more sense now that you said how it happened. A 13900k is certainly an upgrade compared to a 12700k. Then the 13900k had issues so you got a refund and put it towards a 14900k. I was trying to poke fun but could have done a better job at it.

Nah, I didn't read any ill intent into your post.

 

[SiliconFly]

.

 

[DavidC1]

Thanks for the detailed and informative reply.
I remember reading that by the time Prescott was introduced the P4 pipeline had grown to 31 stages and pipeline stalls were costly and HT helped offset the loss of productivity during those stalls.

This is the quote from RWT: "Supposedly Willamette, the 180nm P4, actually had all the necessary circuitry for SMT present, but it was disabled due to the difficulty of validating SMT until the tail end of the Northwood 130nm generation."

While in some ways what you said are true, in other ways the Netburst-based chips were very narrow and had even less opportunities to take advantage of SMT. So on wider chips you have more opportunities due to more execution units. On Netburst you had more stalls, which potentially gives you more chance for a benefit, but that depends on if you have enough execution resources.

In short, Netburst turned out to be a marketing driven design which was unrealistic, and thus to make up for the deficiencies added conflicting design choices.

If you go back to the graph of performance gains using HT for both Netburst and Nehalem, Nehalem has many cases where the gains are far greater. Netburst unlike Nehalem had quite a few scenarios where you lost performance whereas the latter would gain a small amount.

Ultimately the impending demise of HT on consumer chips at least may be driven by two factors:
1. Lowering future execution risk.
2. Amdahl's Law benefitting larger fewer core processors over smaller many core processors. Hence, a 64-core Zen 4 makes sense but a 256-core E core chip does not.

 

[gdansk]

So on wider chips you have more opportunities due to more execution units

If by wider we mean many available execution units then Goldmont (etc) sounds like a good match for SMT with all its execution units. But it deliberately doesn't have it. Are the execution units too limited? Or is the dual decoder approach enough to keep execution units busy without needing SMT?