Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes + WCL Discussion Threads

[Tigerick]

Wildcat Lake (WCL) Preliminary Specs

Intel Wildcat Lake (WCL) is upcoming mobile SoC replacing ADL-N. WCL consists of 2 tiles: compute tile and PCD tile. It is true single die consists of CPU, GPU and NPU that is fabbed by 18-A process. Last time I checked, PCD tile is fabbed by TSMC N6 process. They are connected through UCIe, not D2D; a first from Intel. Expecting launching in Q2/Computex 2026. In case people don't remember AlderLake-N, I have created a table below to compare the detail specs of ADL-N and WCL. Just for fun, I am throwing LNL and upcoming Mediatek D9500 SoC.

		Intel Alder Lake - N	Intel Wildcat Lake	Intel Lunar Lake		Mediatek D9500
Launch Date		Q1-2023	Q2-2026 ?	Q3-2024		Q3-2025
Model		Intel N300	?	Core Ultra 7 268V		Dimensity 9500 5G
Dies		2	2	2		1
Node		Intel 7 + ?	Intel 18-A + TSMC N6	TSMC N3B + N6		TSMC N3P
CPU		8 E-cores	2 P-core + 4 LP E-cores	4 P-core + 4 LP E-cores		C1 1+3+4
Threads		8	6	8		8
Max Clock		3.8 GHz	?	5 GHz
L3 Cache		6 MB	?	12 MB
TDP		7 W	Fanless ?	17 W		Fanless
Memory		64-bit LPDDR5-4800	64-bit LPDDR5-6800 ?	128-bit LPDDR5X-8533		64-bit LPDDR5X-10667
Size		16 GB	?	32 GB		24 GB ?
Bandwidth			~ 55 GB/s	136 GB/s		85.6 GB/s
GPU		UHD Graphics		Arc 140V		G1 Ultra
EU / Xe		32 EU	2 Xe	8 Xe		12
Max Clock		1.25 GHz		2 GHz
NPU		NA	18 TOPS	48 TOPS		100 TOPS ?

As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.

 

[jpiniero]

Toms claims that the base die is using 22FFL (and not 10 nm as previously rumored). That's good if true.

 

[uzzi38]

Yay we can finally kill the N3 for tGPU rumour that has been taken as fact by far too many people. About bloody time.

 

[dullard]

Yay we can finally kill the N3 for tGPU rumour that has been taken as fact by far too many people. About bloody time.

Intel、Meteor Lakeで3Dチップレット技術を採用。計画通り2023年登場

Intelは、8月22日(現地時間)から行なわれる半導体設計に関する学会「HotChips」にて、同社が2023年に導入を計画しているクライアント向けSoC「Meteor Lake」(メテオレイク)の概要を明らかにする。

pc.watch.impress.co.jp

The only reason for the N3 rumor was from a disinformation campaign to discredit Intel. It was clear from a leaked Intel slide that N3 was going to be introduced with Arrow Lake, not Meteor Lake. Heck, that information was available before the Meteor Lake N3 rumor spread.

 

[uzzi38]

View attachment 66360

Intel、Meteor Lakeで3Dチップレット技術を採用。計画通り2023年登場

Intelは、8月22日(現地時間)から行なわれる半導体設計に関する学会「HotChips」にて、同社が2023年に導入を計画しているクライアント向けSoC「Meteor Lake」(メテオレイク)の概要を明らかにする。

pc.watch.impress.co.jp

The only reason for the N3 rumor was from a disinformation campaign to discredit Intel.

I meant the fact that it was even on N3 to begin with, and the only reason it was ever accepted by fact is this incredibly misleading slide from Intel which was displayed earlier this year:

 

[dullard]

I meant the fact that it was even on N3 to begin with, and the only reason it was ever accepted by fact is this incredibly misleading slide from Intel which was displayed earlier this year:

If someone takes that slide to mean Meteor Lake is on N3, then you must also take it to mean that Meteor Lake is on 20A. That would be an utterly ridiculous conclusion, since it would imply that Meteor Lake skips both Intel 4 and Intel 3. Therefore, it is obvious that the slide is not intended to imply Meteor Lake is on N3. Instead, it should be interpreted by the bold titles at the top of each column. Such as: these are examples of chips and processes that will be used with "Disaggregated" tiles.

• Notice how Alder Lake and Raptor Lake are examples of the bold "Hybrid" title at the top of that column.
• Notice how the 15 W and under Lunar Lake is in the "Ultra Low Power Performance" column.

 

[Exist50]

I meant the fact that it was even on N3 to begin with, and the only reason it was ever accepted by fact is this incredibly misleading slide from Intel which was displayed earlier this year:

View attachment 66361

Such a crock of utter BS

Nah, that rumor existed independent of that slide. I mean look at it. It says 20A in the same column, but no one's claiming 20A for MTL. There were a couple of "analysts" who "confirmed" that Intel was using N3 for the GPU tile, and that's how it became "fact". Trendforce seems to be going for the "two wrongs make a right" approach, while some (e.g. "SemiAnalysis") have been ignoring the obvious for now. Ffs, even SemiAccurate got this one right...

 

[uzzi38]

Nah, that rumor existed independent of that slide. I mean look at it. It says 20A in the same column, but no one's claiming 20A for MTL. There were a couple of "analysts" who "confirmed" that Intel was using N3 for the GPU tile, and that's how it became "fact". Trendforce seems to be going for the "two wrongs make a right" approach, while some (e.g. "SemiAnalysis") have been ignoring the obvious for now. Ffs, even SemiAccurate got this one right...

It was just a rumour before this slide, after this slide multiple outlets like Tom's Hardware started treating it as a fact rather than just a rumour. Once the tech press does that, it becomes a fact to the general public as well.

 

[uzzi38]

If someone takes that slide to mean Meteor Lake is on N3, then you must also take it to mean that Meteor Lake is on 20A. That would be an utterly ridiculous conclusion, since it would imply that Meteor Lake skips both Intel 4 and Intel 3. Therefore, it is obvious that the slide is not intended to imply Meteor Lake is on N3. Instead, it should be interpreted by the bold titles at the top of each column. Such as: these are examples of chips and processes that will be used with "Disaggregated" tiles.

That is the most sensible interpretation, yes. But you're expecting people to realise that.

There were rumours that MTL would use N3 before this slide, then they saw the slide and it became fact to most people, including the tech press. What I'm really wondering though, is wtf is up with the slide showing 192EUs for Meteor Lake?

 

[uzzi38]

Wait a second, Lunar Lake also confirmed to be <= 15W? Double nice - that's another bogus rumour squashed!

 

[Exist50]

It was just a rumour before this slide, after this slide multiple outlets like Tom's Hardware started treating it as a fact rather than just a rumour. Once the tech press does that, it becomes a fact to the general public as well.

I suppose it did make things worse, but plenty of outlets have been playing fast and loose with the difference between rumor and fact.

 

[Exist50]

What I'm really wondering though, is wtf is up with the slide showing 192EUs for Meteor Lake?

See, that made everything so much worse. When Intel marketing is too incompetent to get basic product details right, what hope is there for the general public? Likewise for 5W TDP.

 

[Exist50]

Wait a second, Lunar Lake also confirmed to be <= 15W? Double nice - that's another bogus rumour squashed!

I don't think Intel's confirmed that yet. The outlets just seem to be thinking "Ultra Low Power" == "U series and below" == ≤15W. Not unreasonable, but also not confirmed.

 

[uzzi38]

I don't think Intel's confirmed that yet. The outlets just seem to be thinking "Ultra Low Power" == "U series and below" == ≤15W. Not unreasonable, but also not confirmed.

It's in the Tom's Hardware article right at the end

"Meteor Lake and Arrow Lake chips will scale to meet the needs of the mobile and desktop PC market, whereas Lunar Lake will serve the mobile 15W and under market." I'm assuming this has been confirmed, because it's the first time I've seen an outlet actually make the claim that it was <=15W

 

[Exist50]

I'm assuming this has been confirmed, because it's the first time I've seen an outlet actually make the claim that it was <=15W

That's precisely how we get into this mess

 

[uzzi38]

That's precisely how we get into this mess

Touche lmfao

 

[Saylick]

That is the most sensible interpretation, yes. But you're expecting people to realise that.

There were rumours that MTL would use N3 before this slide, then they saw the slide and it became fact to most people, including the tech press. What I'm really wondering though, is wtf is up with the slide showing 192EUs for Meteor Lake?

Maybe it still exists. Seems like there are two tGPUs, one for the 2+8 version of MTL and the other for the 6+8 version. Perhaps 96 EUs for the former, and 192 EUs for the latter?

Looks like the first image is the 6+8 version with the larger tGPU, and the second is the 2+8 version with the smaller tGPU? The CPU tile and GPU tiles are not the same sizes these images (assuming SOC tile is the same size in both).

 

[mikk]

Raichu was right:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1561752492052197378

 

[dullard]

It's in the Tom's Hardware article right at the end

"Meteor Lake and Arrow Lake chips will scale to meet the needs of the mobile and desktop PC market, whereas Lunar Lake will serve the mobile 15W and under market." I'm assuming this has been confirmed, because it's the first time I've seen an outlet actually make the claim that it was <=15W

That is where I got it from. I should have included a link.

 

[scineram]

Why is there an IOE and why separate from soc? On the same process node even. This makes no sense to me.

 

[Tigerick]

Why is there an IOE and why separate from soc? On the same process node even. This makes no sense to me.

I think IOE is Thunderbolt controller which is optional for desktop MTL platform. Thus Intel is able to use the space to manufacture 8+16 compute tile

 

[Tuna-Fish]

Why is there an IOE and why separate from soc? On the same process node even. This makes no sense to me.

My guess would be that they needed more die edge for all their IO, and making the PCH larger or less square would have increased the size of the interposer too much.

 

[Exist50]

Maybe it still exists. Seems like there are two tGPUs, one for the 2+8 version of MTL and the other for the 6+8 version. Perhaps 96 EUs for the former, and 192 EUs for the latter?

There are two GPU tiles, but those EU numbers don't match.

 

[Exist50]

I think IOE is Thunderbolt controller which is optional for desktop MTL platform. Thus Intel is able to use the space to manufacture 8+16 compute tile

The desktop will still have an IOE tile. To add more cores, they just make the compute tile longer.

 

[DrMrLordX]

Have we seen any indication yet that Intel is preparing an 8+16 Meteor Lake CPU tile?