Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

[Tigerick]

As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.





Intel Core Ultra 100 - Meteor Lake



As mentioned by Tomshardware, TSMC will manufacture the I/O, SoC, and GPU tiles. That means Intel will manufacture only the CPU and Foveros tiles. (Notably, Intel calls the I/O tile an 'I/O Expander,' hence the IOE moniker.)

 

[OneEng2]

I'd been using an i5-6500 since late 2015 and over the last 4-5 years I'd occasionally think about upgrading but when I thought "ugh what a pain to do a new install and get everything configured just right" I kept putting it off. I just didn't see the benefit - the only thing I really thought would improve things with an upgrade were nvme drives.

That's what I did as well when I upgraded. The nvme drive made the biggest difference in performance of anything I have upgraded in the last .... oh ..... decade?

 

[Doug S]

That's what I did as well when I upgraded. The nvme drive made the biggest difference in performance of anything I have upgraded in the last .... oh ..... decade?

Ironically the switch from HDD to SATA SSD was ALSO the upgrade that made the biggest difference to me in the previous decade. CPUs have improved a lot since 2005 but not remotely like the improvement in storage during that time.

Which is fair, storage had improved very little other than in size since the first consumer priced HDDs in the late 80s. After HDDs being mostly stuck for 30 years other than minor improvement in rotation speed and seek time, nvme drives finally caught up to the similar level of improvement CPUs have had since the 80s, and the similar levels of growth in RAM capacity since the 80s. It just happened in a lot shorter time - the first decent performing SATA SSDs in the late 00s, to modern nvme drives in the last few years. It stands out even more since improvement in CPUs slowed during that time, and the growth in RAM demand (for consumer PCs) similarly slowed, so we were doubly primed to really see the improvement in storage.

 

[dullard]

I find it humorous that in a thread where we bicker about 2% here or 10% there, that three posters are claiming that a Core 2 Duo, 3570K, and i5-6500 are just fine. Yes, they are just fine for simple tasks like word processing or internet debates. They will continue to be just fine for years to come.

But, for many other users, we need much faster than that. I post on Anandtech whenever I have my agnonizing waits for my work computer to finish it's task that take several minutes to hours (compiling software, Solidworks bogging down, Excel optimizations with the Solver add-in, running simulations, etc).

 

[511]

I find it humorous that in a thread where we bicker about 2% here or 10% there, that three posters are claiming that a Core 2 Duo, 3570K, and i5-6500 are just fine. Yes, they are just fine for simple tasks like word processing or internet debates. They will continue to be just fine for years to come.

But, for many other users, we need much faster than that. I post on Anandtech whenever I have my agnonizing waits for my work computer to finish it's task that take several minutes to hours (compiling software, Solidworks bogging down, Excel optimizations with the Solver add-in, running simulations, etc).

For 24 Years that's some dedication

 

[AcrosTinus]

I am running into some issues with the Arrow Lake system. I wanted to run some Iphone H.265 through Handbrake and convert them down really quick because my GPU was already handling 6 or so, normally on my 13700K I could do two 180fps encodes on the IGPU with the quality preset, no I can only do 15 to 20 fps per encode, what happened or is my chip borked ?

Can anyone test handbrake encodes with something simple 20K bitrate down to 4 or 6 ?

 

[511]

I am running into some issues with the Arrow Lake system. I wanted to run some Iphone H.265 through Handbrake and convert them down really quick because my GPU was already handling 6 or so, normally on my 13700K I could do two 180fps encodes on the IGPU with the quality preset, no I can only do 15 to 20 fps per encode, what happened or is my chip borked ?

Can anyone test handbrake encodes with something simple 20K bitrate down to 4 or 6 ?

Make sure you update the driver or rollback the driver sometimes they bork the encoders.

 

[AcrosTinus]

Make sure you update the driver or rollback the driver sometimes they bork the encoders.

really? is it really that sensitive ?
Currently windows is fighting me, the updater from the board, updates the driver and then windows reverts it to some "intel Display" driver. What type of performance do you see with Arrow Lake encodes via handbrake if you have one.

 

[igor_kavinski]

What type of performance do you see with Arrow Lake encodes via handbrake if you have one.

My results: https://forums.anandtech.com/thread...te-overhaul-of-the-test.2588294/post-41394526

I don't have iGPU.

 

[AcrosTinus]

My results: https://forums.anandtech.com/thread...te-overhaul-of-the-test.2588294/post-41394526

I don't have iGPU.

Do you have a ARL CPU with one, I am close to RMAing the thing.

 

[igor_kavinski]

Do you have a ARL CPU with one, I am close to RMAing the thing.

Sorry. Nope.

Ask on overclock.net

Plenty of people have ARLs there.

 

[Fjodor2001]

I find it humorous that in a thread where we bicker about 2% here or 10% there, that three posters are claiming that a Core 2 Duo, 3570K, and i5-6500 are just fine. Yes, they are just fine for simple tasks like word processing or internet debates. They will continue to be just fine for years to come.

But, for many other users, we need much faster than that. I post on Anandtech whenever I have my agnonizing waits for my work computer to finish it's task that take several minutes to hours (compiling software, Solidworks bogging down, Excel optimizations with the Solver add-in, running simulations, etc).

PCs for ordinary users ≠ PCs for enthusiasts

Also, even ordinary users may be interested in the top SKUs once they upgrade, if they are on 10+ year upgrade cycles and want to make sure that the PC they buy will be sufficient even 10 years from now.

 

[dullard]

Also, even ordinary users may be interested in the top SKUs once they upgrade, if they are on 10+ year upgrade cycles and want to make sure that the PC they buy will be sufficient even 10 years from now.

Two of the three CPUs discussed are i5s and the other is not specified. One of those i5s was a mid-range i5 (the i5-6500). I guess to me, that is not top SKU territory.

Even ignoring that, a ~$600 computer now and a ~$600 computer in 5 years will be vastly superior option for that person compared to a ~$1999 computer now. That is especially true if they are not enthusiasts or power users. Two cheaper computers would be cheaper, faster in the end as more complex software comes out, and would be much more future-proof. But, people are known to make worse decisions.

 

[AcrosTinus]

Sorry. Nope.

Ask on overclock.net

Plenty of people have ARLs there.

Still, thanks though

 

[Doug S]

Two of the three CPUs discussed are i5s and the other is not specified. One of those i5s was a mid-range i5 (the i5-6500). I guess to me, that is not top SKU territory.

Even ignoring that, a ~$600 computer now and a ~$600 computer in 5 years will be vastly superior option for that person compared to a ~$1999 computer now. That is especially true if they are not enthusiasts or power users. Two cheaper computers would be cheaper, faster in the end as more complex software comes out, and would be much more future-proof. But, people are known to make worse decisions.

The reason I buy more "midrange" is more about quiet - though these days my loads tend to be more memory intensive than CPU or GPU so I don't need a high spec CPU with a lot of cores anyway. But I do believe it is a much better value to buy midrange and replace more often (or upgrade midlife) than to buy the high end based on having a longer life. The upcharge you pay for those "halo" parts (and the boards to support them) aren't worth it based on what you think you might need a few years from now. Buy what you need now and in the near future, and worry about your future needs when the future comes. Technology changes aren't always predictable.

My full sequence of computers is Atari 800, Atari 65XE (dad paid for the first, Atari gave me the second) souped up Mac Plus (bought used) NeXT slab (bought used) HP 712/100 PA-RISC ("loaned" to me by HP) Intel MMX 166 later upgraded to 233, Celeron 300A later upgraded to P3 733, AMD Duron can't remember model and I think I upgraded it at some point, Intel Q6600, Intel i5-6500, AMD 9600X. Starting with the NeXT all running Unix/Linux. All the Intel/AMD systems I bought from parts. So I've probably got a more eclectic history than anyone here, unless there are people here like a guy I used to know who pulled a PDP/11 out of a dumpster (or maybe intercepted on the way to the dumpster) and got it up and running in his basement.

 

[dullard]

Intel Q6600

The Core 2 Quads were quite good chips. I have previously recommended the Q6600 to multiple people who were looking for a new computer. Myself, I had a Q8300 which is similar (slightly faster clock, but lower cache and lower power use).

 

[igor_kavinski]

My full sequence of computers is Atari 800, Atari 65XE (dad paid for the first, Atari gave me the second) souped up Mac Plus (bought used) NeXT slab (bought used) HP 712/100 PA-RISC ("loaned" to me by HP) Intel MMX 166 later upgraded to 233, Celeron 300A later upgraded to P3 733, AMD Duron can't remember model and I think I upgraded it at some point, Intel Q6600, Intel i5-6500, AMD 9600X. Starting with the NeXT all running Unix/Linux. All the Intel/AMD systems I bought from parts. So I've probably got a more eclectic history than anyone here, unless there are people here like a guy I used to know who pulled a PDP/11 out of a dumpster (or maybe intercepted on the way to the dumpster) and got it up and running in his basement.

I had something like an Atari 800 (forgot the model number but it was a home computer that accepted Atari game cartridges, had a keyboard, had BASIC and you could load/save programs with a cassette recorder. There was a disk drive but too expensive.

Spoiler: My crazy PC history

Then it was 386DX-40, 486DX2-66 (during this time I got my hands on a Computer Shopper magazine and kept dreaming of a 486DX4-100), Pentium 133 non-MMX, almost two year punishment of no PC for failing to become a doctor (I wasn't interested but my dad wanted to force me) so used PCs occasionally at net cafes if I could get the money from my mom. Then dad gave up and gave me a Pentium II 350 MHz for studying computer science. Kept dreaming about Pentium III but was only able to afford Celeron 700 through a slocket adapter. Thankfully, the mobo was 440BX so a utility called SoftFSB enabled me to overclock the CPU to 1.05 GHz which was bearable with a fan blowing on the CPU with the case side cover open. Finally got my hands on the Pentium III 1 GHz but it didn't work in the slocket adapter and probably got fried due to voltage difference. I kept it in case I got a compatible mobo in future but never did and one day, I took a hammer to it. That was the day I inhaled fine silicon dust. Sold that Celeron to a friend (don't remember it but he was the one who told me that the sale happened).

Got an AMD Sempron 2 GHz which would overclock to 3 GHz easily. Used it for few months and then had to leave home for real life. Got a company Thinkpad with Core Duo. That stayed with me until I got fired from the job. In the notice period, about 10 days before I was to lose my job, I splurged on a Core 2 Quad Q9400 with 8GB RAM and Leadtek Geforce 9600 GT (big deal at the time). Still got the 9600 GT. Sold the Q9400 PC in exchange for Blurays to a South African guy. Bought Core i3-2100/Z77/32GB RAM. Upgraded that to i7-3770 during the Coffee Lake era. An accident with Pimax VR destroyed my Z77 mobo's PCIe slots so got Z97 with i7-5775C from Aliexpress. Then someone here sold i7-12700K to me for $240 so built my Alder Lake system. Got an Epyc 128 thread CPU to experience a real server CPU for myself. Then jumped on 245KF and 9950X3D. I think I'm done for now. Don't really feel the need to upgrade unless I see a really good deal.

Don't ask about the dozen or so laptops I have. Please. Don't. My head will hurt from trying to remember which CPUs are in them and what models they are.

 

[511]

https://m.weibo.cn/detail/5183934787748234

 

[poke01]

View attachment 126636

https://m.weibo.cn/detail/5183934787748234

This is good right? At least it’s not regressed

 

[511]

This is good right? At least it’s not regressed

how i see it is they wasted another node to get us no single threaded improvements like 3-4% ST improvement is doable on a architecture refresh

 

[poke01]

how i see it is they wasted another node to get us no single threaded improvements like 3-4% ST improvement is doable on a architecture refresh

I just can’t believe that rumour cause ARL-H did get a ST uplift.

 

[511]

Yeah but the improvements are meh

 

[poke01]

View attachment 126638

Yeah but the improvements are meh

So single core isn’t everything

 

[511]

So single core isn’t everything

it's not the only thing but what remains to be seen is the Power efficiency and the V/F Curve they should be able to hit the same ST at lower power levels at least also I can bet you darkmont is getting at least 5% IPC Improvements so it will be within 2% of Cougar Cove.

 

[DrMrLordX]

It was acceptable for Intel to spend one generation (which should have been Meteor Lake tbh) maintaining overall ST at better power levels due to the ridiculous clocks and power draw required to make Alder Lake/Raptor Lake reach peak performance. There's no excuse for Intel treading water with Arrow Lake and Panther Lake.

Also correct me if I'm wrong, but within its niche, Lunar Lake/Lion Cove showed decent ST uplift over Golden/Raptor Cove so . . .

 

[IEC]

I don't care who the maker is as long as it offers value for money.

Priced right, Arrow Lake (265K/F) and Lunar Lake (in my case, 226V laptop) were stellar buys for the performance offered.

If Intel can execute and release a competitor to Zen 6 I would gladly switch back. But they've been missing the target for years now and so they are relegated to my secondary systems (and so I always have at least 2 non-AMD rigs to test apps/code on)