Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

[Tigerick]

As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.





Intel Core Ultra 100 - Meteor Lake



As mentioned by Tomshardware, TSMC will manufacture the I/O, SoC, and GPU tiles. That means Intel will manufacture only the CPU and Foveros tiles. (Notably, Intel calls the I/O tile an 'I/O Expander,' hence the IOE moniker.)

 

[reb0rn]

So they must still have/expect yield issue, or it would be early 2026...

 

[511]

So they must still have/expect yield issue, or it would be early 2026...

Desktop NVL is N2 tbh and Q4 is Intel desktop launches for few years now.

 

[poke01]

With Nova being so disappointing. Yeah, Panther lake will be like Kitten Lake

 

[DavidC1]

So they must still have/expect yield issue, or it would be early 2026...

Early 2026 is Pantherlake timeframe, not Novalake.

 

[Io Magnesso]

Intel has created garbage while using TSMC N2 (N2P).

 

[511]

With Nova being so disappointing. Yeah, Panther lake will be like Kitten Lake

PTL iGPU is pretty solid tbh the CPU is refreshed LNC/SKT.

 

[AMDK11]

Core Zen4: Decode 4-Wide, 4ALU, 4FP
Core Zen5: Decode 2x4-Wide(8-Wide SMT), 6ALU, 4FP

Core GoldenCove: Decode 6-Wide, 3ALU/FP+2ALU
Core LionCove: Decode 8-Wide, 6ALU, 4FP

PantherCove: ?Decode 10-Wide/2x5-Wide, 8ALU, 6FP?

Intel emphasizes in the LionCove animation that splitting the unified scheduler (GoldenCove and earlier) into separate INTs and separate FPs allows scaling to at least 10ALU and 8FP. It is very likely that this was spread over at least two generations. The next big one after LionCove is PantherCove.

 

[DrMrLordX]

Intel has created garbage while using TSMC N2 (N2P).

Not yet they haven't. We'll need to wait until the product is released to finally judge it. You may be right, but . . .

 

[Io Magnesso]

Not yet they haven't. We'll need to wait until the product is released to finally judge it. You may be right, but . . .

I agree,
On top of that I still don't know what the performance of both 18A/N2 is.
18A seems to have a healthy yield at this stage.
There is a year before the release of ZEN6 and NOVA LAKE.
Actually, I want Nova Lake as a 18A product.

 

[511]

I agree,
On top of that I still don't know what the performance of both 18A/N2 is.
18A seems to have a healthy yield at this stage.
There is a year before the release of ZEN6 and NOVA LAKE.
Actually, I want Nova Lake as a 18A product.

Nova lake is a 18AP/N2/N2P Product

 

[511]

@igor_kavinski some E core and P core benchmark for You
P core https://browser.geekbench.com/v6/cpu/8481451
E core https://browser.geekbench.com/v6/cpu/8481372

 

[OneEng2]

I agree,
On top of that I still don't know what the performance of both 18A/N2 is.
18A seems to have a healthy yield at this stage.
There is a year before the release of ZEN6 and NOVA LAKE.
Actually, I want Nova Lake as a 18A product.

I am guessing that N2 will be better for high performance while 18A will be better for low power..... but this is just speculation based on various pieces of information here and there.

 

[dullard]

I guess most users that are on non-Win11 compliant HW would like to wait for both Win12 and NVL-S before upgrading, since NVL-S is expected to be a major upgrade.

I'm not sure that I buy your logic. Windows 12 so far seems to be nothing that most people really care about. Some users are really into AI, but the majority still haven't taken that plunge. So, I just don't see a bit more AI with Windows 12 being a big reason to wait. The other rumors also aren't really that exciting either. A bit more lightweight? A redesigned UI? Not real must-haves there.

Plus, the last few upgrades were free anyways. Switching to Windows 10 was free for quite some time. So was switching to Windows 11. So, why would anyone wait for Windows 12?

Waiting for Nova Lake, I can see. But specifically waiting for both? Why?

Related: Tom's Hardware thinks Windows 12 will be delayed yet another year: https://www.tomshardware.com/softwa...s-microsoft-announces-windows-11-version-25h2

 

[MoistOintment]

The biggest problem we highlighted a few pages back is cost. This product will be expensive to make and hard to sell for a huge premium. It also requires good sync and execution from multiple Intel teams to pull off just for the sake of a halo product. It may not make the cut based on Intel's new 50% gross margin policy. It would certainly be fun and exciting for us though, so keep calm and fingers crossed.

Cost of development doesn't effect Gross Margin, it impacts Operating Margin. If the base tile can support 2x compute tiles already, and the 8+16 model is hitting 50% margins, then the 2x 8+16 model only needs to increase prices by manufacturing cost of a compute tile + a few extra % for packaging to hit their 50% margins.

 

[Fjodor2001]

Switching to Windows 10 was free for quite some time. So was switching to Windows 11. So, why would anyone wait for Windows 12?

To avoid the hassle of Windows version switching. Perhaps easier to jump straight from Windows 10 -> 12.

Especially since it's unknown what the Win 12 HW requirements will be. Perhaps you buy a Win 11 compliant PC now, but then MS slaps on an NPU TOPS HW requirement for Win 12, rendering your Win 11 compliant PC obsolete. Similar to like the Win 11 TPM HW requirement rendered a lot of Win 10 compliant PCs obsolete.

 

[dullard]

To avoid the hassle of Windows version switching. Perhaps easier to jump straight from Windows 10 -> 12.

Especially since it's unknown what the Win 12 HW requirements will be. Perhaps you buy a Win 11 compliant PC now, but then MS slaps on an NPU TOPS HW requirement for Win 12, rendering your Win 11 compliant PC obsolete. Similar to like the Win 11 TPM HW requirement rendered a lot of Win 10 compliant PCs obsolete.

I don't know too many computer users who would delay purchases for years to avoid a few hours of switching an OS. You pretty much need a computer or you don't.

Windows 11 allowed you to run on 4-year old CPUs when it launched. That isn't even remotely close to you thinking that a CPU bought today won't be able to run Windows 12 when it comes out. Not a single Windows 10 computer was made obsolete when Windows 11 came out. They all ran exactly the same on the software that they were purchased to run. Windows 11 will be supported by Microsoft until at least the end of 2031. I'm personally not concerned that a computer bought today would not get security updates in 6.5 years.

 

[Fjodor2001]

I don't know too many computer users who would delay purchases for years to avoid a few hours of switching. You pretty much need a computer or you don't.

A lot of ordinary people, not enthusiasts, and not frequenting this forum. For them switching to a new PC is not a few hours. It's big deal. Reinstalling everything, reconfiguring, migrating data, learning new "things", etc.

They are still on ~3570K to 6700K and friends. Which work perfectly fine for them, for their use cases such as email, web browsing, watching videos, editing Word / PowerPoint, etc. They would not upgrade unless forced to because of Win 10 EOL, or Win 1x HW requirements. They are on 10+ year upgrade cycles.

Windows 11 allowed you to run on 4-year old CPUs when it launched. That isn't even remotely close to you thinking that a CPU bought today won't be able to run Windows 12 when it comes out.

4C did not guarantee Win 11 compliance. It also has to have a TPM, which a lot of 4C CPU don't. Also, even if it did have a TPM, that was not guarantee it would be Win 11 compliant. A lot of CPUs were obsoleted anyway, see here what Intel CPUs are Win 11 compliant.

W.r.t. Win12, there might as well be a similar HW requirements, e.g. minimum NPU TOPS, rendering a lot of CPUs Win 12 obsolete, even if they are Win 11 compliant.

Windows 11 will be supported by Microsoft until at least the end of 2031. I'm personally not concerned that a computer bought today would not get security updates in 6.5 years.

Most people buying a new computer want to be able to run the latest OS version, for as long as possible. So they don't want to buy a PC in 2025 which supports Win 11, and then a year later find out it's not Win 12 compliant.

 

[dullard]

A lot of ordinary people, not enthusiasts, and not frequenting this forum. For them switching to a new PC is not a few hours. It's big deal. Reinstalling everything, reconfiguring, migrating data, learning new "things", etc.

They are still on ~3570K to 6700K and friends. Which work perfectly fine for them, for their use cases such as email, web browsing, watching videos, editing Word / PowerPoint, etc. They would not upgrade unless forced to because of Win 10 EOL, or Win 1x HW requirements. They are on 10+ year upgrade cycles.

And they will still work perfectly fine for them for years from now. Windows 11 is not needed. They just shouldn't put all their financial information unencrypted on those 13-year old 3570K computers.

4C did not guarantee Win 11 compliance. It also has to have a TPM, which a lot of 4C CPU don't. Also, even if it did have a TPM, that was not guarantee it would be Win 11 compliant. A lot of CPUs were obsoleted anyway, see here what Intel CPUs are Win 11 compliant.

Who said 4C? I said 4 year old. 8th generation Intel CPUs that are 4 years old or newer when Windows 11 came out runs Windows 11. And you can certainly use older CPUs if you put in a ~$10 to ~$25 TPM 2.0 module (motherboard dependent though).

W.r.t. Win12, there might as well be a similar HW requirements, e.g. minimum NPU TOPS, rendering a lot of CPUs Win 12 obsolete, even if they are Win 11 compliant.

Most people buying a new computer want to be able to run the latest OS version, for as long as possible. So they don't want to buy a PC in 2025 which supports Win 11, and then a year later find out it's not Win 12 compliant.

Now this is just your imagination that you are pretending to be reality. Remember, just because you can think of it does not make it true -- you especially. Do you have one shred of evidence that an Arrow Lake CPU bought today will not run Windows 12?

 

[OneEng2]

A lot of ordinary people, not enthusiasts, and not frequenting this forum. For them switching to a new PC is not a few hours. It's big deal. Reinstalling everything, reconfiguring, migrating data, learning new "things", etc.

Agree!

Most people don't buy a new PC (or laptop) unless the old one breaks down.

For me, it was when the mb power supply ckt fried on my Core 2 duo. I moved onto a Ryzen 3300g which was a huge step up and now a 5600g .... which I'll continue to use until something big dies on it.

I have been building computers forever (first one was an 8088 with a Hercules graphics card). I might just decide to buy a laptop next time (which is pure sacrilege for me!).

 

[Fjodor2001]

And they will still work perfectly fine for them for years from now. Windows 11 is not needed. They just shouldn't put all their financial information unencrypted on those 13-year old 3570K computers.

Work fine, as in that it still executes CPU instructions, yes.

But they often use their PC for Internet banking, buying stuff online by credit card, and so on. Plus storing personal information such as pictures, videos, etc. And they can get their PC hijacked for ransom, or their video camera captured.

Short term they might be fine without Windows security updates, but it becomes risky over time.

 

[dullard]

Work fine, as in that it still executes CPU instructions, yes.

But they often use their PC for Internet banking, buying stuff online by credit card, and so on. Plus storing personal information such as pictures, videos, etc. And they can get their PC hijacked for ransom, or their video camera captured.

Short term they might be fine without Windows security updates, but it becomes risky over time.

Back to your original post: you better not buy Nova Lake-S then. It might become risky in the year 2039 and have your desktop camera captured!

 

[dullard]

Work fine, as in that it still executes CPU instructions, yes.

But they often use their PC for Internet banking, buying stuff online by credit card, and so on. Plus storing personal information such as pictures, videos, etc. And they can get their PC hijacked for ransom, or their video camera captured.

Short term they might be fine without Windows security updates, but it becomes risky over time.

Back to your original post: you better not buy Nova Lake-S or desktop Zen 6 then. They might become risky in the year 2039 or 2040 and have your desktop camera captured! And $30 for Windows Extended Security Updates to keep it running without upgrading Windows is way too much money for that perfectly fine computer.

 

[Doug S]

Agree!

Most people don't buy a new PC (or laptop) unless the old one breaks down.

For me, it was when the mb power supply ckt fried on my Core 2 duo. I moved onto a Ryzen 3300g which was a huge step up and now a 5600g .... which I'll continue to use until something big dies on it.

I have been building computers forever (first one was an 8088 with a Hercules graphics card). I might just decide to buy a laptop next time (which is pure sacrilege for me!).

Yep same here. I used to upgrade every few years because there were such massive gains in performance, plus massive gains in the size of memory the board could accept. Not only did I upgrade every few years I'd upgrade the CPU and max out the RAM for a mid life kicker.

I'd been using an i5-6500 since late 2015 and over the last 4-5 years I'd occasionally think about upgrading but when I thought "ugh what a pain to do a new install and get everything configured just right" I kept putting it off. I just didn't see the benefit - the only thing I really thought would improve things with an upgrade were nvme drives. I maxed out the RAM at 32 GB and upgraded storage during covid so I kept putting off.

A couple months ago either the board or the CPU died so I was forced into an upgrade whether I liked it or not. Now I have a 9600X. Couple more cores (I disabled SMT / capped power at 65W in the BIOS) and probably close to 3x faster per core, but I don't really notice the difference CPU wise 99% of the time. Only reason I added RAM was because I saw a special on 48 GB. The board (Asrock i620 Lightning) can accept up to 128 GB, this will be the first PC I won't max out at some point.

The only thing that I've noticed a dramatic difference with are the pair of Samsung 990 Pro NVMe drives versus my previous SATA SSDs. Crazy that I have a tiny little drive with more I/O capacity than a $5 million Symmetrix had 15 years ago!

I'm sure I'll end up running this one until failure like the last. We won't see anything like 3x single thread gain in the next decade. I'd bet against 2x. Don't need more RAM, can't imagine benefiting from faster storage. Maybe its time to upgrade my monitor to OLED lol

 

[igor_kavinski]

Maybe its time to upgrade my monitor to OLED lol

mini-LED if you want to avoid the anxiety of the organic pixels degrading with time and of course, the screen burn.

 

[Fjodor2001]

And $30 for Windows Extended Security Updates to keep it running without upgrading Windows is way too much money for that perfectly fine computer.

It's correct that consumers can pay $30 to get a 1 year extension. If they do, it'll be extended to October 13, 2026. But then the Windows 10 Consumer Extended Security Updates (ESU) program ends. Beyond that date consumers cannot get security updates. It's not a matter of money beyond that date.

Windows 10 Consumer Extended Security Updates (ESU) program - Microsoft Support

support.microsoft.com