Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

[Tigerick]

As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.





Intel Core Ultra 100 - Meteor Lake



As mentioned by Tomshardware, TSMC will manufacture the I/O, SoC, and GPU tiles. That means Intel will manufacture only the CPU and Foveros tiles. (Notably, Intel calls the I/O tile an 'I/O Expander,' hence the IOE moniker.)

 

[lightisgood]

and the most recent iteration of Intel 7 being much better than it's given credit for.

Yeah, this is why, Emerald Rapids provides better TCO than we had expected.

 

[Hitman928]

Yeah, this is why, Emerald Rapids provides better TCO than we had expected.

Dropping the tile number to 2 from 4 had a huge, positive effect as well.

 

[SiliconFly]

I agree with your point but it looks reasonable under load too. No it isn't able to compete with Apple but it at least dramatically improves on mobile RPL. I think MTL is alright but I wanted to see better PPW given the new node. The new iGPU is a very welcome improvement but I'm not too impressed with the performance of the CPU cores. Intel needs to replace RWC with something much better.

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Like one reviewer said, Intel has a long way to go, but at lease MTL is the first step in the right direction!

The first real efficiency gain the CPU tile (P & E cores) will get is with ARL on 20A. We can expect a massive 35% to 40% PPW gain over MTL's CPU tile next year. RWC is technically a evolutionary dead end. Or simply vestigial remains from a bygone era. I think Intel chose to play it safe with MTL's CPU tile due to too many changes going into it's brand new architecture. ARL should fix it.

 

[Hitman928]

So basically in the heavy loading "test" the 7840U laptop consume 50W, wich is quite a lot for a U APU wich is suposed to go up to 30W, and the MTL laptop 35W, if that s not made up numbers dunno what it is...

And of course no idea of the quantity of work processed...

How do you get 50W for the APU from that chart?

 

[SpudLobby]

Lmao, Zenbook S14 with Ultra 7 and Phoenix-competitive battery life available at Bestbuy in the US for shipping or pickup by end of the month (23rd). We don’t even have an AMD equivalent yet in the US, and Phoenix has been out for 2-3 quarters.

 

[Abwx]

How do you get 50W for the APU from that chart?

I said the laptop, not the APU.

But while we re at it this mean that the 7840U APU is running at about 35W TDP
while MTL is at barely 25W, that s how they get thoses fake battery life numbers.

 

[Geddagod]

Seeing these MTL results, I think a hypothetical 128 core GNR on Intel 4, like originally planned, would have had around the same perf of a 96 core Milan. 33% more cores, sure, but I think a Zen 4 core might actually end up having 20-30% higher perf/watt than RWC as well, at server power levels, meaning it will be clocking much better.
I am looking forward to individual RWC testing.
Also, even if RWC on Intel 3 is able to utilize all of their claimed perf/watt gains, at best it would be about matching a Zen 4 core in perf/watt. Meaning any perf/watt gains Zen 5 has over Zen 4, will be used to just crush GNR even further.
To match Zen 5, Intel may need 20A/ TSMC N3... while Zen 5 continues to use N4.

Even then, I still think GNR will be the most competitive server processor Intel has released in a while. But that says more about Intel's current standing than it does about GNR. I still think Turin won't be more than >50% faster than Granite Rapids on average, iso power (right now Genoa can outperform SPR by >75% in tasks like CB, while probably consuming less power lol).

 

[Markfw]

I did not even comment on it, and you are all over my case.

Chill dude.

So, now I will comment, sort of. Since whenever I am away from home with a laptop, it will always be on a browser with gmail open (I am deaf, so no cell phone), if I replace my 6850H laptop, it will not be an Intel.

 

[TESKATLIPOKA]

Lmao, Zenbook S14 with Ultra 7 and Phoenix-competitive battery life available at Bestbuy in the US for shipping or pickup by end of the month (23rd). We don’t even have an AMD equivalent yet in the US, and Phoenix has been out for 2-3 quarters.

Yet I bought one today in Europe. Maybe you should ask why you can't buy one in USA, but can in other countries.

 

[Hitman928]

I said the laptop, not the APU.

But while we re at it this mean that the 7840U APU is running at about 35W TDP
while MTL is at barely 25W, that s how they get thoses fake battery life numbers.

I calculate 38W for the whole laptop. . . probably means around 25W for the APU. Could easily be that depending on the power setting.

 

[mikk]

Like one reviewer said, Intel has a long way to go, but at lease MTL is the first step in the right direction!

The first real efficiency gain the CPU tile (P & E cores) will get is with ARL on 20A. We can expect a massive 35% to 40% PPW gain over MTL's CPU tile next year. RWC is technically a evolutionary dead end. Or simply vestigial remains from a bygone era. I think Intel chose to play it safe with MTL's CPU tile due to too many changes going into it's brand new architecture. ARL should fix it.

Under full load they could improve a lot, unfortunately the Soc will be almost the same, all or most Soc flaws from MTL will carry on to ARL. Same LP E core and IMC outside the compute tile for increased latency. The uncore power draw seems on the higher side even if it is improved. They will fix this for Lunar Lake but not for Arrow Lake. Lunar Lake doesn't even need LP E "workaround" cores.

 

[Abwx]

I calculate 38W for the whole laptop. . . probably means around 25W for the APU. Could easily be that depending on the power setting.

I thought that they had the same battery but MTL has a 75Wh one and the 7840U a 54Wh one, just imagine that it produce the same result as using different powers when it comes to battery life, so the logic still hold, and even more strongly...

 

[H433x0n]

Seeing these MTL results, I think a hypothetical 128 core GNR on Intel 4, like originally planned, would have had around the same perf of a 96 core Milan. 33% more cores, sure, but I think a Zen 4 core might actually end up having 20-30% higher perf/watt than RWC as well, at server power levels, meaning it will be clocking much better.
I am looking forward to individual RWC testing.
Also, even if RWC on Intel 3 is able to utilize all of their claimed perf/watt gains, at best it would be about matching a Zen 4 core in perf/watt. Meaning any perf/watt gains Zen 5 has over Zen 4, will be used to just crush GNR even further.
To match Zen 5, Intel may need 20A/ TSMC N3... while Zen 5 continues to use N4.

Even then, I still think GNR will be the most competitive server processor Intel has released in a while. But that says more about Intel's current standing than it does about GNR. I still think Turin won't be more than >50% faster than Granite Rapids on average, iso power (right now Genoa can outperform SPR by >75% in tasks like CB, while probably consuming less power lol).

Have you looked at the Emerald Rapids data? It's improved by a full +20% perf/watt at full load with even larger gains under partial load. On a per core basis, it's within striking distance with the top SKU trading blows with Epyc 9554 depending on workload. It's got me conflicted on what to expect with GNR.

 

[jpiniero]

Seems the main problem with Meteor is the loose binning cuz Intel 4. If the CPU tile was at TSMC, it would be much better.

 

[SiliconFly]

Seeing these MTL results, I think a hypothetical 128 core GNR on Intel 4, like originally planned, would have had around the same perf of a 96 core Milan. 33% more cores, sure, but I think a Zen 4 core might actually end up having 20-30% higher perf/watt than RWC as well, at server power levels, meaning it will be clocking much better.
I am looking forward to individual RWC testing.
Also, even if RWC on Intel 3 is able to utilize all of their claimed perf/watt gains, at best it would be about matching a Zen 4 core in perf/watt. Meaning any perf/watt gains Zen 5 has over Zen 4, will be used to just crush GNR even further.
To match Zen 5, Intel may need 20A/ TSMC N3... while Zen 5 continues to use N4.

Even then, I still think GNR will be the most competitive server processor Intel has released in a while. But that says more about Intel's current standing than it does about GNR. I still think Turin won't be more than >50% faster than Granite Rapids on average, iso power (right now Genoa can outperform SPR by >75% in tasks like CB, while probably consuming less power lol).

Afaik, the sooner they ditch RWC the better.

 

[dullard]

So, now I will comment, sort of. Since whenever I am away from home with a laptop, it will always be on a browser with gmail open (I am deaf, so no cell phone), if I replace my 6850H laptop, it will not be an Intel.

So, light use, which is where Meteor Lake shines. Of course you wouldn't want that.

 

[Geddagod]

We can expect a massive 35% to 40% PPW gain over MTL's CPU tile next year.

One should expect ~20% from the arch (or more if the arch is as hyped up as it's supposed to be), and ~25% from the node. I expect the theoretical maximum to be ~50%. However, I don't think Intel is going to get anywhere near that- based on how disappointing RWC is.
Something interesting is that is if one is to draw parallels with ICL and RWC, one might expect really good gains from RWC on Intel 3, kinda like TGL on Intel 10 ESF. I mean, we will see tho.

On a per core basis, it's within striking distance with the top SKU trading blows with Epyc 9554 depending on workload.

The problem is how much power it consumes.

Seems the main problem with Meteor is the loose binning cuz Intel 4. If the CPU tile was at TSMC, it would be much better.

You read Raichu's twitter post as well? Lol

 

[Geddagod]

Afaik, the sooner they ditch RWC the better.

they really needed LNC in GNR

 

[Hulk]

True. But the real world scenario is somewhere in between. Actually, people tend to idle a lot.


I guess in a typical 8 hour work day, the systems tend to idle a lot more than we can imagine. Especially considering workloads like browsers & office/productivity apps in which their main and worker threads usually tend to spend most of the time in idle states.

This is in line with Intel's old "race to sleep" doctrine.

 

[H433x0n]

Seems the main problem with Meteor is the loose binning cuz Intel 4. If the CPU tile was at TSMC, it would be much better.

There's only one way to fix the loose binning...

You've got to eventually launch the process into production. The initial launch of A17 on N3B had loose binning too, it’s something that you really can’t fix until you’ve got the volume. In that sense having the tile on Intel 4 was a great pipe cleaner for Intel 3. I’m cautiously optimistic that the foundry has turned things around.

 

[trivik12]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1735405097079693380

Asus seem to be available to buy at best buy

https://www.bestbuy.com/site/asus-zenbook-14-oled-14-3k-touch-laptop-intel-core-ultra-7-32gb-memory-1tb-ssd-ponder-blue/6569307.p?skuId=6569307

$1300 for 32GB/1TB with 120 hz OLED display for a just released model is not bad.

MSI Prestige is available to order at Costco.

https://www.costco.com/msi-prestige-16-intel-evo-edition-powered-by-intel-core-ultra-7-processor-155h---qhd%2b-2560-x-1600-windows-11.product.4000230800.html

32GB/2TB/QHD+ IPS display.

Amazon has listed couple of Acer and MSI listed. But nothing seem to be ready for shipping. But Acer seem to be the lowest priced one at $999 for 16GB/1TB/QHD+ OLED display at 90hz.

Amazon.com

 

[SiliconFly]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1735405097079693380

Asus seem to be available to buy at best buy

https://www.bestbuy.com/site/asus-zenbook-14-oled-14-3k-touch-laptop-intel-core-ultra-7-32gb-memory-1tb-ssd-ponder-blue/6569307.p?skuId=6569307

$1300 for 32GB/1TB with 120 hz OLED display for a just released model is not bad.

MSI Prestige is available to order at Costco.

https://www.costco.com/msi-prestige-16-intel-evo-edition-powered-by-intel-core-ultra-7-processor-155h---qhd%2b-2560-x-1600-windows-11.product.4000230800.html

32GB/2TB/QHD+ IPS display.

Amazon has listed couple of Acer and MSI listed. But nothing seem to be ready for shipping. But Acer seem to be the lowest priced one at $999 for 16GB/1TB/QHD+ OLED display at 90hz.

Amazon.com

A core ultra 7 with 32gb ram, 1 tb ssd & qhd at around 900 to 1000 usd is reasonable. 1300 is overpriced imho.

 

[trivik12]

A core ultra 7 with 32gb ram, 1 tb ssd & qhd at around 900 to 1000 usd is reasonable. 1300 is overpriced imho.

it just launched today. it would be pricy. I am sure in few months it will get way cheaper like most windows laptops.

 

[Abwx]

So, light use, which is where Meteor Lake shines. Of course you wouldn't want that.

Well, in their WLAN surfing test NBC got 479 minutes with a 65Wh battery, a comparable 14" laptop with a 7840U and a 68Wh battery last 510mn, so dunno if its as efficient in regular light usage than some would think, but for sure that Intel marketing was very efficient to spin the numbers...

https://www.notebookcheck.com/Acer-Swift-Go-14-im-Test-Meteor-Lake-Core-Ultra-7-ueberzeugt-mit-KI-Kern.782442.0.html

 

[SiliconFly]

... the most recent iteration of Intel 7 being much better than it's given credit for...

RPL's Intel 7 (ESF+) UHP cells were one of the best for high performance and high frequencies. Draws too much power and generates too much heat. But performance wise, it rocked. Which is actually excellent for gaming, especially when coupled with a good dGPU. I have a RPL HX gaming laptop with RTX dGPU and it's an absolute gaming monster. Battery life is abysmal though and it comes with a pretty massive power brick. And the laptop runs pretty hot while gaming (both cpu & gpu). But it's still the best in class (high fps).

But as of today, Intel 7 has had its day. I believe even Intel 4 is a bit outdated by today's standards. Hoping 20A delivers!