Discussion Intel current and future Lakes & Rapids thread

[DrMrLordX]

DDR4 really hasn't eclipsed DDR4-4000 for the regular market. Yes there are speeds available higher than that, but they come a a considerable cost (especially if you go past 4400). DDR5 has been a long time in coming. It seems like DDR5 is more-squarely aimed at DDR4-2933 or so instead of the now-ubiquitous ~DDR4-3600 "enthusiast" kits that have been cheap for awhile (Hynix CJR, Micron e-die).

 

[LightningZ71]

We've already seen the "half way" point to DDR5 in LPDDR4X. What has it shown us? LPDDR4X has significantly higher latencies than DDR4, but also higher bandwidth numbers. The result has been a few percentage points in improvement in iGPUs on processors that have limited thermal headroom, and barely moving the needle in other benchmarks on similarly thermally constrained systems. It DOES use less power doing it, so there's that. What we've never seen is an H-class APU paired with LPDDR4X ram running at it's maximum spec to test what it can really do. However, we HAVE seen desktop APUs with heavily overclocked DDR4 sticks up around the same bandwidth, but with better CL numbers than it, and, when paired with Vega8, there's not a whole lot of difference.

It's going to take moving to the next generation of iGPUs for the extra bandwidth to be truly important.

As for desktop tasks, as we have seen with Threadripper, with it's 4 channels of DDR4, there are only a few benchmarks, ones that are HEAVILY memory bus constrained, where it's 4 channels of ram and the resulting bandwidth, made a notable difference in performance over a nearly equivalent AM4 CPU, especially any difference that couldn't be at least partially explained by the enlarged power/thermal envelope of the package. Big caches and "enough bandwidth for most use cases" is largely already here. The extra throughput helps in more and more specific situations.

 

[eek2121]

DDR4 really hasn't eclipsed DDR4-4000 for the regular market. Yes there are speeds available higher than that, but they come a a considerable cost (especially if you go past 4400). DDR5 has been a long time in coming. It seems like DDR5 is more-squarely aimed at DDR4-2933 or so instead of the now-ubiquitous ~DDR4-3600 "enthusiast" kits that have been cheap for awhile (Hynix CJR, Micron e-die).

I just hope we get more RGB!

 

[eek2121]

The Core i5-12400 looks to be 4+4? It also appears the silicon is final, so launch shouldn’t be too far off.

 

[arandomguy]

DDR5 getting vote of no confidence from motherboard makers. Compared to Skylake launch where DDR3 supporting motherboards were rare as hen teeth, this time whole lot of mainstream and high volume retail motherboards are gonna come with DDR4 support.

ASUS Z690 Motherboard Lineup Leaks Out - ROG Maximus XIV, ROG STRIX, TUF Gaming & PRIME Series (wccftech.com)

DDR4 launched with Haswell-E nearly a year before Skylake. There is no server CPU (well mass from Intel) to support production ramp up nor is there a high premium HEDT "buffer" this time for consumer retail either but straight to the mainstream platform. "Last Gen" memory (DDR4) support is going to be much more important, if anything just from a pricing and availability stand point.

The way i see it, 9 out of 12 normal mainstream motherboards are ddr4. Top end that is low volume is ddr5 and some random others. And yes that is a problem, cause if DDR5 had reasonable advantages, things would be reversed?

DDR5 will likely a carry a high premium and be a poor value proposition much like top end motherboards. From a market demographic perspective they'd be more similar, hence a better pairing. For this segment you're often buying for status/name/emotional appeal as opposed to any real practical considerations.

Having your memory potentially cost more than the CPU and motherboard combined possibly for the mainstream buyer would make no sense and be a hard sell.

 

[arandomguy]

As usual, but 98% PC consumers or customers do not need Premium memory.

Does the PC user need something more expensive than this kind of CL16 ddr4 memory?It is cheep, "compared to other more expensive Premium memory."Converted from local currency this is 97$ for 16gb kit.You can pay 30-40$ more for Premium 16gb kit, but for what blah lol.

It's worth noting that 3200CL16 was not just premium but very high premium at the onset of DDR4, costing more than 2x that of 2133C15/2400C16. I think it wasn't until around 2017(2+ years of DDR4 being on market) in which 3200C16 premiums dropped (to the point there was barely any) so much it (and 3000C15) become essentially the obvious basic choice.

Similarly while this 6400C40 DDR5 sample might also be premium and binned already I wouldn't be surprised (if not expect it) to be standard if not considered slow further down the line as the DDR5 market matures.

 

[Joe NYC]

Anyone dissing Intel for moving forward on memory standards is an idiot. It's mainly gamers that want the crazy memory performance and the additional bandwidth from DDR5 is going to be a bigger deal for most casual gamers anyway.

If DDR4 works better for that in the short term then run DDR4 and be glad there's an upgrade path when better DDR5 products come to market.

What upgrade path would that be? Throwing out motherboard and memory and keeping CPU?

That, IMO, is the opposite of what people normally call "upgrade path". Upgrade path is that you upgrade the CPU and keep mobo and memory.

 

[Zucker2k]

There should be boards that support both DDR gens down the line. In any event, this story is not written yet until we see review latencies in gear 1 mode. I have a feeling it won't be quite that bad.

 

[uzzi38]

The Core i5-12400 looks to be 4+4? It also appears the silicon is final, so launch shouldn’t be too far off.

Hm? Pretty sure it's supposed to be 6+0

 

[eek2121]

Hm? Pretty sure it's supposed to be 6+0

It probably is? I was taking a guess since it has 12 threads. I have seen zero leaks on this part.

 

[CropDuster]

It's worth noting that 3200CL16 was not just premium but very high premium at the onset of DDR4, costing more than 2x that of 2133C15/2400C16. I think it wasn't until around 2017(2+ years of DDR4 being on market) in which 3200C16 premiums dropped (to the point there was barely any) so much it (and 3000C15) become essentially the obvious basic choice.

Similarly while this 6400C40 DDR5 sample might also be premium and binned already I wouldn't be surprised (if not expect it) to be standard if not considered slow further down the line as the DDR5 market matures.

2x8GB 2400C15 was $263 in 11/14

 

[lobz]

Anyone dissing Intel for moving forward on memory standards is an idiot. It's mainly gamers that want the crazy memory performance and the additional bandwidth from DDR5 is going to be a bigger deal for most casual gamers anyway.

If DDR4 works better for that in the short term then run DDR4 and be glad there's an upgrade path when better DDR5 products come to market.

With a new motherboard. Not a real upgrade path in my eyes.

 

[lobz]

There should be boards that support both DDR gens down the line. In any event, this story is not written yet until we see review latencies in gear 1 mode. I have a feeling it won't be quite that bad.

Down the line. The post you replied to talks about the initial launch product not offering an upgrade path. Your post is 100% feasible amd correct, you just probably clicked the wrong message to reply to.

 

[Zucker2k]

With a new motherboard. Not a real upgrade path in my eyes.

Well, if the gloomy picture about DDR-5 latencies, so far, holds (some are saying as much as 3 years if we were to go by the same trajectory DDR-4 followed before we saw huge improvements) then a significant number of enthusiasts will surely jump on the DDR-4 platform for ADL-S; gamers especially. It's the one area where those latencies could cause havoc, compared to previous gens.

Down the line. The post you replied to talks about the initial launch product not offering an upgrade path. Your post is 100% feasible amd correct, you just probably clicked the wrong message to reply to.

Which post? I didn't quote any. Hehe
Anyway, I just wanted to point out the fact that since we're dealing with an unreleased product here, we shouldn't be jumping ahead of ourselves. Besides, there's always the possibility that there would be hybrid boards that support both DDR-4 and DDR-5. I hope this addresses your concern?

 

[lobz]

Well, if the gloomy picture about DDR-5 latencies, so far, holds (some are saying as much as 3 years if we were to go by the same trajectory DDR-4 followed before we saw huge improvements) then a significant number of enthusiasts will surely jump on the DDR-4 platform for ADL-S; gamers especially. It's the one area where those latencies could cause havoc, compared to previous gens.

I totally agree with this.

Which post? I didn't quote any. Hehe
Anyway, I just wanted to point out the fact that since we're dealing with an unreleased product here, we shouldn't be jumping ahead of ourselves. Besides, there's always the possibility that there would be hybrid boards that support both DDR-4 and DDR-5. I hope this addresses your concern?

If you say that your post was not addressed to the one right above it, then forget that part of my post 🙂

 

[eek2121]

I suspect things will be just fine. I would take the early screenshots with a grain of salt.

There will be DDR4 boards on launch day. Gracemont may (and probably does) have higher memory latency than Golden Cove, etc.

Side note: apparently DDR4 is up to (and beyond) 5333, so anyone going with DDR4 will have some options.

 

[Joe NYC]

There should be boards that support both DDR gens down the line. In any event, this story is not written yet until we see review latencies in gear 1 mode. I have a feeling it won't be quite that bad.

Boards that support both DDR4 and DDR5 will be more expensive and will have less expansion capacity. Compared to boards that support a single memory standard.

And then, the "upgrade" would involve throwing out DDR4 memory, buying top of the line DDR5, and hoping that the hybrid motherboard and hybrid BIOS will support higher memory speeds and tighter timings as well as the dedicated DDR5 mobo.

 

[Mopetar]

With a new motherboard. Not a real upgrade path in my eyes.

I haven't been following launch plans too closely, but are there no boards planned to offer support for both?

If it's only a smaller set of high end boards I fail to see the problem when we're already talking about a type of customer that already buys at the higher-end, especially anyone running top-bin memory for that last bit of added performance.

 

[jpiniero]

I'd be surprised if there are will be any boards that bother with both.

 

[dullard]

I don't really see the issue here. Use DDR4 (probably the stuff you already have) if you are a casual user or a gamer. Use DDR5 if you need the bandwidth (such as heavy computations, AI, etc).

There would be an issue if you were forced into one or the other. But why the rage over allowing users to pick motherboards and memory that meets their needs?

 

[Joe NYC]

I don't really see the issue here. Use DDR4 (probably the stuff you already have) if you are a casual user or a gamer. Use DDR5 if you need the bandwidth (such as heavy computations, AI, etc).

There would be an issue if you were forced into one or the other. But why the rage over allowing users to pick motherboards and memory that meets their needs?

I am going to guess that my 4 x 4 GB DDR4 would not be of much use in a potential combo mobo.

If there ever is a combo mobo, it is not going to have 8 (2x4) memory slots.

 

[Mopetar]

I'd be surprised if there are will be any boards that bother with both.

Why do you think that? Merely advertising the capacity to do so is going to be perceived as more valuable because even if it's a mid-range board there will be some people who will buy it for the added security of being able to upgrade even though they never will.

 

[jpiniero]

Why do you think that? Merely advertising the capacity to do so is going to be perceived as more valuable because even if it's a mid-range board there will be some people who will buy it for the added security of being able to upgrade even though they never will.

The amount of people who would do that is not that many.

There's no guarantee that Raptor Lake will even support DDR4 btw.

 

[coercitiv]

I haven't been following launch plans too closely, but are there no boards planned to offer support for both?

I doubt that's feasible, pin layout is different and with DDR5 voltage regulation is moving to the sticks themselves.

 

[Joe NYC]

The amount of people who would do that is not that many.

There's no guarantee that Raptor Lake will even support DDR4 btw.

Exactly!

There is no guarantee, unless Intel explicitly says it, that Raptor Lake will support DDR4.