Discussion Intel current and future Lakes & Rapids thread

[Hulk]

Okay let's play with the numbers. Let's assume Golden Cove is +40% over Skylake and Gracemont is as good as Skylake IPC-wise but with a 20% deficit due to being clocked lower.

8x1.4 + 8x0.8=17.6 Skylake cores

If this all turns out to be true and IF the Windows Scheduler does its job optimally and IF the memory subsystem is robust enough to move the data as required then this is looking to be a very capable CPU for both ST and MT apps.

Yeah I know, lots of "ifs."

 

[ashFTW]

Granite Rapids up to 120 cores?

https://fuse.wikichip.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/intel-accel-4-meteor-granite.png

I don't know if this has been discussed before, if you count the squares in the blue tiles in the picture above, they add up to 120. The golden tiles are probably IO, and the grey tiles are probably HBM. And the entire thing might be sitting on top of 'Rambo Cache" using Foveros just like Xe HPC. If true, that should be competitive with Epic Gen4/5.

 

[ondma]

Okay let's play with the numbers. Let's assume Golden Cove is +40% over Skylake and Gracemont is as good as Skylake IPC-wise but with a 20% deficit due to being clocked lower.

8x1.4 + 8x0.8=17.6 Skylake cores

If this all turns out to be true and IF the Windows Scheduler does its job optimally and IF the memory subsystem is robust enough to move the data as required then this is looking to be a very capable CPU for both ST and MT apps.

Yeah I know, lots of "ifs."

Dont forget Gracemont lacks hyperthreading as well, so 8x1.4 plus 8x0.8x0.75 = 16 skylake cores. Again, assuming everything works perfectly.

 

[Joe NYC]

I am on the fence here about the following: personally I have no usage for the hybrid CPU's (Alder/Meteor/whatever) but there'll come a time when my current setup won't suffice.

Hence I'm considering getting an i9-10900K 10C part and a Z590 Apex of Strix board with a fast RAM kit (not interested in DDR5 for a long while) and use that until there'll be proper enthusiast CPU's for desktop again (if ever...).

Either that of wait and see how these hybrid ones will fare in a few generations time.

From 8700, I would not be upgrading to 10900K. What you have is decent, and the upgrade is quite tiny.

I would wait for 2x performance upgrade from Alder Lake, Zen4, Meteor Lake, Zen 5.

 

[mikk]

Alder Lake looks promising but i think delaying the release of PCIE 4.0/DDR4 motherboard chipsets untill 2022 is a blunder.

Makes sense to me given that ADL-S this year will be K-SKUs only. Furthermore there is no PCIe4/DDR4 chipset, it isn't bound to a certain chipset. Delaying the mainstream chipset is no big deal, it's only a 2 months window this year where we can buy it.

 

[IntelUser2000]

Now it's "only" a 50-60% better core, the leak with 1.325*1.18 =1.56% faster than Skylake would fall nicely in that range.

If you follow the Cinebench leak, Gracemont will be 10-15% faster than Skylake and come dangerously close to Sunny Cove.

Area-wise if you compare the cores Golden Cove is likely 5x the size of Gracemont.

Power efficiency per unit of performance is probably lot closer between the two.

Granite Rapids up to 120 cores?

https://fuse.wikichip.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/intel-accel-4-meteor-granite.png

I don't know if this has been discussed before, if you count the squares in the blue tiles in the picture above, they add up to 120. The golden tiles are probably IO, and the grey tiles are probably HBM. And the entire thing might be sitting on top of 'Rambo Cache" using Foveros just like Xe HPC. If true, that should be competitive with Epic Gen4/5.

Pretty good analysis. I mean it is on their 7nm, so double the cores of Sapphire Rapids.

Also a ton of silicon for Meteor Lake. Yes, it could be showing the smallest package for Y chips but still that's a tight fit.

 

[coercitiv]

I mean it is on their 7nm

There's a typo there, I think you meant Intel 4

 

[Borealis7]

There's a typo there, I think you meant Intel 4

It's called "Intel 4" because it is 4 years behind the competition >.<

 

[uzzi38]

Alder Lake looks promising but i think delaying the release of PCIE 4.0/DDR4 motherboard chipsets untill 2022 is a blunder. I doubt early DDR5 is going to be either good, plentiful, or apropriatly priced vs good DDR4 when these initial SKU's release. In addition, PCIE5 is likely to significanlty increase the cost of the motherboards while most likely being pointless during the time period the platform will be relevent. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to see the crap entry level stuff on z690 costing $250ish with more capable boards being well over $300. If TDP is also being pushed (requiring more expensive cooling) the platform cost is going to be way too high. Maybe this matters less when people are willing to pay out the butt for GPU's but I don't like the trend. Hopefully they at least keep the prices competitive on the CPU's even if they have a bit of an edge.

I originally thought that there would be no DDR4 Z690 boards as well, but that does not appear to be the case.

There should be some low end DDR4 boards available at the end of this year.

I absolutely agree when it comes to pricing on DDR5 motherboards however. Those are apparently ridiculous. PCIe5 shouldn't affect prices too much as it's only the GPU lanes that carry the signal - primary NVMe and chipset both use Gen 4 lanes.

 

[IntelUser2000]

I absolutely agree when it comes to pricing on DDR5 motherboards however. Those are apparently ridiculous. PCIe5 shouldn't affect prices too much as it's only the GPU lanes that carry the signal - primary NVMe and chipset both use Gen 4 lanes.

Well, pricing for everything is pretty much "Let's see how high we can go before we start losing revenue"

 

[blckgrffn]

Well, pricing for everything is pretty much "Let's see how high we can go before we start losing revenue"

Given how darn near everything is supply constrained it’s just how it’s going to be. Empty shelves (after blowing through available inventory) are way worse than slower sales if you are picking one in my experience.

 

[Rigg]

If this is true the only good reason I could imagine is that the ddr4 platform won't be specced as good as the ddr5 ones. It really does seem like doing ddr5 first is a huge missed opportunity to make a lot of money. Releasing the ddr4 boards first while also having the same socket upgrade path to ddr5 with just a mobo swap a few months down the line to me sounds like the default strategy intel would have used; a staggered release would generate many extra/repeat sales.

I haven't seen anything that suggests that z690 mandates DDR5 and PCIe5. Most boards probably will though.

Makes sense to me given that ADL-S this year will be K-SKUs only. Furthermore there is no PCIe4/DDR4 chipset, it isn't bound to a certain chipset. Delaying the mainstream chipset is no big deal, it's only a 2 months window this year where we can buy it.

I originally thought that there would be no DDR4 Z690 boards as well, but that does not appear to be the case.

There should be some low end DDR4 boards available at the end of this year.

I absolutely agree when it comes to pricing on DDR5 motherboards however. Those are apparently ridiculous. PCIe5 shouldn't affect prices too much as it's only the GPU lanes that carry the signal - primary NVMe and chipset both use Gen 4 lanes.

Perhaps I jumped the gun on my inference that z690 would be PCIE 5/DDR5 only. The (seemingly solid) rumors from a few months ago indicated that z690 would be the only 600 chipset to offer these features although it is true that there isn't any info I can find to indicate that these features are mandatory on z690. I seem to remember skylake having DDR3 & DDR4 z170 boards so I guess there might be a precedent here. Seems like a messy way to launch a motherboard series when you could just release 2 different chipsets simultaneously with the feature(s) differentiation.

Is there a leak I missed that indicates z690 will be offered with DDR4?

 

[jpiniero]

Skylake did not officially support DDR3, only DDR3L at 1.35V which I think was pretty rare on desktops. One question I guess is what speeds the DDR4 boards will be able to do.

 

[TheF34RChannel]

Skylake did not officially support DDR3, only DDR3L at 1.35V which I think was pretty rare on desktops. One question I guess is what speeds the DDR4 boards will be able to do.

Good question! Equally, what decency will DDR5 have by the release time? Pretty underwhelming still, assuming.

As for board prices; the last two gens already have me gaping so I cannot fathom what the next series will be. It's gotten out of hand

 

[Curmudgeon666]

Recently, someone on reddit by the username of mooreslawisnotdead posted an Intel roadmap all the way through 2025. This roadmap contains some products/code names that haven't been mentioned here before. The roadmap could be completely genuine or a total work of fan fiction. I guess that's for you to decide. The user has since deleted his account, but not before I copied this information. What follows is the roadmap itself, along with commentary by the reddit user that posted it:

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alder Lake (Golden Cove/Gracemont) Q4'21 / Q1'22 - predicted to be competitively weak vs AMD/Apple offerings that time.
Raptor Lake (Raptor Cove / Gracemont) Q3'22 / Q4'22 - 10% CPU perf boost and 8/16 configuration puts intel back on par but expect AMD/Apple to refresh their products as well.
Meteor Lake (Redwood Cove / Crestmont) Q2'23 - Intel's first true chiplet or tile based design. Different dies built on TSMC / Intel processes. More of a node shrink with single digit performance improvements. AMD will again extend lead with Zen 4+ / 5.
Arrow Lake (Lion Cove / Skymont) Q4'23 - Will feature an updated compute tile with 8/32 config for the high end enthusiast products. Might achieve parity with AMD offerings at the time but loses out to Apple in power efficiency.
Lunar Lake (Lion Cove / Skymont) Q4'24 - This is the product that will use TSMC 3nm as reported by Nikkei. Big performance jump expected and designed to achieve parity or beat AMD and Apple in both performance and power efficiency.
Nova Lake (Panther Cove [tentative]/ Darkmont) 2025 - This will mark the biggest architectural change in cpu architecture since the Core architecture is introduced in 2006. Intel is working to build an entirely new architecture from the ground up much like Ryzen with up to 50% cpu performance improvement from lunar lake. This is also the reason why Glenn Hinton returned.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Apparently, this post blew up and got noticed (not bad for my first contribution to the Anandtech forums!). VideoCardz wrote an article about it here. Reddit's /r/intel subreddit discussion about it here. For the sake of additional context, I was able to find the link to the original post and an image of the post itself. Reddit says the OP was made 28 days ago, so that means it was posted on July 7th. I haven't been able to find any mention of these new codenames before that time.

 

[ashFTW]

Good question! Equally, what decency will DDR5 have by the release time? Pretty underwhelming still, assuming.

As for board prices; the last two gens already have me gaping so I cannot fathom what the next series will be. It's gotten out of hand

Yeah, it better have the decency to have high frequency!

 

[Asterox]

Alder Lake-S Peak 45A, or we need more CPU performance.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1423298016627224579

 

[vstar]

Alder Lake-S Peak 45A, or we need more CPU performance.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1423298016627224579

There is a 165W entry for the 10th/11th gen which never materialized in final products, so that seems off.

 

[jpiniero]

ADATA announces XPG DDR5 memory up to 12600 MT/s - VideoCardz.com

ADATA Unveils a New Lineup of Xtreme Innovations ADATA Technology (Taiwan Stock Exchange: 3260.TWO), a manufacturer of high-performance DRAM modules, NAND Flash products, mobile accessories, gaming products, electric power trains, and industrial solutions, today unveiled a host of new products...

videocardz.com

AData/XPG announces that they will maybe launch DDR5 by the end of the year at up to 12600. Also might have 64 GB options too.

Don't ask about price or latency.

 

[JoeRambo]

ADATA announces XPG DDR5 memory up to 12600 MT/s - VideoCardz.com

ADATA Unveils a New Lineup of Xtreme Innovations ADATA Technology (Taiwan Stock Exchange: 3260.TWO), a manufacturer of high-performance DRAM modules, NAND Flash products, mobile accessories, gaming products, electric power trains, and industrial solutions, today unveiled a host of new products...

videocardz.com

Don't ask about price or latency.

That is actually nice. I think ~DDR5 6400 is where casual stuff ( ala DDR4 3200CL16 or so ) lies. So if they can come up with double that, even if CAS latency is bad, it can be made better at the cost of peak BW and some extra volts?

I think due to DDR5 architecture overall, there will be huge engineering and quality (pricing too ) gap between casual and proper enthusiast stuff. There is plenty of internal components in the DIMM, that can be overbuilt now.

 

[Saylick]

Apparently, this post blew up and got noticed (not bad for my first contribution to the Anandtech forums!). VideoCardz wrote an article about it here. Reddit's /r/intel subreddit discussion about it here. For the sake of additional context, I was able to find the link to the original post and an image of the post itself. Reddit says the OP was made 28 days ago, so that means it was posted on July 7th. I haven't been able to find any mention of these new codenames before that time.

Funny how the rumormill takes anything for granted. All it takes it for one website to run to the press with a rumor and the rest fall in line. It really makes Anandtech feel like an oasis in the desert of shoddy tech journalism.

 

[jpiniero]

That is actually nice. I think ~DDR5 6400 is where casual stuff ( ala DDR4 3200CL16 or so ) lies. So if they can come up with double that, even if CAS latency is bad, it can be made better at the cost of peak BW and some extra volts?

I think due to DDR5 architecture overall, there will be huge engineering and quality (pricing too ) gap between casual and proper enthusiast stuff. There is plenty of internal components in the DIMM, that can be overbuilt now.

We do have no idea what Alder Lake will actually be able to run at using XMP.

 

[Dayman1225]

We do have no idea what Alder Lake will actually be able to run at using XMP.

I believe official spec for ADL is 4800 or 5200 iirc.

 

[coercitiv]

Sigh, even with the initial push-back from both press and social-media, memory makers still push these lies about ECC "Enhanced Reliability" on DDR5. On-die ECC is there to improve yields, not end-user system reliability. We had the same mechanics introduced with NAND Flash as smaller nodes introduced more noise, better error correction meant they were able to keep shrinking for a while (until 3D NAND on less dense nodes took over). The same applies here as well, memory cells that would otherwise fail validation will now pass thanks to on-die ECC, meaning improved yields.

I know this is OT but as ADL launch grows near we'll be talking quite a bit about DDR5 here as well.

 

[Gideon]

Alder Lake peak current allegedly 28% higher than Rocket Lake

Alder Lake Allegedly Commands 28% Higher Peak Current Than Rocket Lake

Cranking up the juice

www.tomshardware.com

If true, that's getting beyond ridiculous.

While 11600K is fine, 11700K is already pushing it for my tastes for all-core loads (non gaming) and 11900K is already rather ridiculous. Going beyond that isn't something I'd want, considering how crazy the GPUs already are at peaks-power. Now we have:

The peak output for the 125W SKU increased from 34A (408W) to 39A (468W), while the 65W SKU went from 30A (360W) to 38.5A (462W). Even the energy-efficient 35W SKU jumped from 16.5A (198W) up to 20.5A (246W).

Yeah, I know it's peak power only for 10ms or so, but even "65W" CPUs will just not work with many older PSUs (even if rated for quite high watts) as over-current protection will just kick in at 30A.

So coupled with current 300W+ TBP custom GPUs you'll need a quality gold+ 1000W PSU or better for a new gaming rig. And be ready for the CPU to draw 250W, sustained, at times.