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Discussion Intel current and future Lakes & Rapids thread

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dullard said:
Competition is good, but competition doesn't have that much to do with pricing. A duopoly (two companies competing) generally drops prices about 20% compared to a monopoly. It is something, but not a whole lot. That 20% drop vanishes if companies can have marketable differences.

I remember the Intel/AMD MHz wars. Basically the same chips, just kept bumping up the MHz every month or so. Great increases in speed, almost identical competitors. What happened to prices? They went up ~$100/month. What really controls prices? Demand. That MHz war happened at the Y2K transition when demand skyrocketted.
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I think it worth pointing out that back then we were largely accustomed to paying well over $1000 for a usable PC.

We've been a bit spoiled in the meantime.

Also, it further reinforces that having the top "desktop" SKU at $800 is ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ because 20 years ago you could have parted with more than that many dollars, regardless of inflation for a top flight SKU. It seems like flirting with $1k for the top desktop SKU across the last 20 year has been commonplace and should seem less and less outrageous.

I'd expect if Intel has a faster than 5950x CPU it will cost more than the 5950x. Seems pretty straightforward to me. It might be $999 even 😉
 
blckgrffn said:
I think it worth pointing out that back then we were largely accustomed to paying well over $1000 for a usable PC.

We've been a bit spoiled in the meantime.

Also, it further reinforces that having the top "desktop" SKU at $800 is ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ because 20 years ago you could have parted with more than that many dollars, regardless of inflation for a top flight SKU. It seems like flirting with $1k for the top desktop SKU across the last 20 year has been commonplace and should seem less and less outrageous.

I'd expect if Intel has a faster than 5950x CPU it will cost more than the 5950x. Seems pretty straightforward to me. It might be $999 even 😉
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I agree. Price points and marketing terms aren't great ways to distinguish CPU types. AMD has a red griffin, but Intel has a purple griffin, they are completely different!!!! Or not, those can be just marketing fluff. What distinguishes CPUs to me is performance and capabilities. Do I need 4 TB of memory? Do I need massive amounts of PCI lanes? Do I need ECC memory, etc. It sucks to pay $999, but if the product is worth the money, I'll do so. If not, I'll wait ~12 months for something equivalent that is far cheaper.
 
JoeRambo said:
Yeah, but the child can provide feedback to the OS: "Hey, i am carrying heavy bricks for what is 45 meters now, help" - and OS can decide to move the heavy load from child to adult, even if there are 5 meters left, cause on average it will benefit.
This way it can react to characteristics of workload dynamically.
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Unless the code being executed has some built-in functionality specifically designed such that it can be monitored and used for reporting purposes, that's just not possible in a general sense. It also doesn't even get into complex problems where a particular task is waiting on something else (e.g. disk access) such that it won't benefit in any speed up from being transferred to a more powerful core.

You can get some simplistic approaches to handling work distribution, but nothing that approaches intelligently solving the problem.
 
Mopetar said:
Unless the code being executed has some built-in functionality specifically designed such that it can be monitored and used for reporting purposes, that's just not possible in a general sense. It also doesn't even get into complex problems where a particular task is waiting on something else (e.g. disk access) such that it won't benefit in any speed up from being transferred to a more powerful core.

You can get some simplistic approaches to handling work distribution, but nothing that approaches intelligently solving the problem.
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It is complex problem, and some parts like "5 meters" left are obviously unknown to CPU and OS.

But just like children and adults can talk, CPU cores also can provide feedback to OS, and that is what Intel's "Hardware-guided scheduling" probably does - it provides hints in the form of extra performance counters about the load. Now what those hints contain so far is a bit of mystery, i have looked at LInux changes in the spring and there were still none.
Speculation - CPU can provide quite some characteristics about the thread being executed, like is it saturating small core resources, how rich the code is in SSE/AVX instructions and so on. OS can then take a look and make decisions about moving the load around.


Still my plan for Alder Lake is to buy it and disable atom cores and probably HT and put it on static clocks. Just like i don't miss HT on my static desktop 5.1Ghz 10900K, i won't be missing extra threads, while enjoying 30MB of L3 and Intel's IPC advances.
No hybrid, no HT means no problems for schedulers 🙂
 
Zucker2k said:
Wow! You just erased every doubt I have for your AMD bias with this remark. The 5950x is an HEDT chip by every measure. The fact that AMD wanted to artificially maintain multithreaded superiority when Intel started releasing 8 core chips into the mainstream segment is not lost on some of us. AND, I doubt this chip is going to exhibit clear single-threaded weakness. You sound like you gave up the ghost. Relax. It's early days yet. The day @lobz types a concession is the day we'll all know for sure.
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Man, take off the blinders and don't read only those posts that fit your opinion about people. I'm 100% sure ADL will have significantly higher 1T IPC than Zen 3 does, some of which the new Vcache will mitigate, but not all and certainly not in all cases, and I certainly believe that AMD really missed the proper release cadence this time. What I hate is every moronic rumor and the hyperboles built around them. I hated adored's 5GHz 8C Zen 2 for $250 nonsense with a passion, and so I hated RKL's legendary performance tales, justified by pages long mathematical equations using GB5 scores.... Granted I'm just an enthusiast and no technical expert at all, I tend to step into the conversation when someone shows symptoms of losing their minds, to try and apply some common sense when possible. I also like it when something is funny, regardless of which side/product/company/ideal it's about. As I said, blinders. Off. Please.
 
lobz said:
Man, take off the blinders and don't read only those posts that fit your opinion about people. I'm 100% sure ADL will have significantly higher 1T IPC than Zen 3 does, some of which the new Vcache will mitigate, but not all and certainly not in all cases, and I certainly believe that AMD really missed the proper release cadence this time. What I hate is every moronic rumor and the hyperboles built around them. I hated adored's 5GHz 8C Zen 2 for $250 nonsense with a passion, and so I hated RKL's legendary performance tales, justified by pages long mathematical equations using GB5 scores.... Granted I'm just an enthusiast and no technical expert at all, I tend to step into the conversation when someone shows symptoms of losing their minds, to try and apply some common sense when possible. I also like it when something is funny, regardless of which side/product/company/ideal it's about. As I said, blinders. Off. Please.
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That Zen 2 nonsense, ugh. I, along with a few others like author Joel Hruska, got a lot of crap from a lot of people for saying that rumor was bunk. It was nice to get the last laugh there, even if it meant higher prices.
 
The person who tested Alder Lake 8+8 in Cinebench R20 score, i can bet that the same person intentionally does not want to show power consumption numbers.It would be very interesting to see, stock R9 5950X vs stock Alder Lake 8+8 Cinebench R20 red details.

If Alder lake has very good power efficiency, there is no reason to hide that red dragon. :mask:

www.kitguru.net

AMD Ryzen 9 5950X Zen 3 CPU Review - KitGuru

AMD's new Zen 3 processors are finally upon us and they bring to the market a brand-new architecture
www.kitguru.net www.kitguru.net
 
A thought I had this morning: assuming Intel doesn’t massively increase pricing, midrange is about to get way more exciting.

The Core i5 12600k will have 6 big + 4 little for a total of 10 cores/16 threads. If Intel keeps pricing where it is, it will be a great value at $270 or less. AMD will have to drop prices…

Of course, knowing Intel, they will probably jack up prices.
 
eek2121 said:
A thought I had this morning: assuming Intel doesn’t massively increase pricing, midrange is about to get way more exciting.

The Core i5 12600k will have 6 big + 4 little for a total of 10 cores/16 threads. If Intel keeps pricing where it is, it will be a great value at $270 or less. AMD will have to drop prices…

Of course, knowing Intel, they will probably jack up prices.
Click to expand...

VP's gotta eat too, you know. And shareholders. Think of the shareholders 😀
 
Thunder 57 said:
That Zen 2 nonsense, ugh. I, along with a few others like author Joel Hruska, got a lot of crap from a lot of people for saying that rumor was bunk. It was nice to get the last laugh there, even if it meant higher prices.
Click to expand...

How silly of me to not include a link to the original article. Here it is. I go by a different name there though. Shouldn't be too hard to pick me out 😛

blckgrffn said:
VP's gotta eat too, you know. And shareholders. Think of the shareholders 😀
Click to expand...

Careful now, lest we get another warning about P&N.
 
Asterox said:
The person who tested Alder Lake 8+8 in Cinebench R20 score, i can bet that the same person intentionally does not want to show power consumption numbers.It would be very interesting to see, stock R9 5950X vs stock Alder Lake 8+8 Cinebench R20 red details.

If Alder lake has very good power efficiency, there is no reason to hide that red dragon. :mask:

www.kitguru.net

AMD Ryzen 9 5950X Zen 3 CPU Review - KitGuru

AMD's new Zen 3 processors are finally upon us and they bring to the market a brand-new architecture
www.kitguru.net www.kitguru.net
Click to expand...

Can we use bold and alternate colors less often please?
 
scannall said:
Hey, at least we don't have Flash banner ads everywhere now. ;-)
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Ah the good old days where you could punch the monkey while waiting for the rest of the page to load. Load times have certainly improved, but how many websites have gone from a single Flash banner ad to a page full of Javascript bloat ads and trackers? It was a more innocent time for sure, but I'm sure there are some pining for a time before that eternal September.
 
JasonLD said:
Well the problem is half of his posts are borderline unreadable on dark mode lol.
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I can see that colored text might cause issues (though it seems red shouldn't be an issue in dark mode) but I don't see how bolding something would cause a problem.

I think the easiest fix would be a personal setting that just strips out non-text formatting from posts entirely. I don't know if the forum has that kind of support built-in, but I would imagine that there are browser plug-ins that would definitely do it for you.
 
Mopetar said:
I can see that colored text might cause issues (though it seems red shouldn't be an issue in dark mode) but I don't see how bolding something would cause a problem.
Click to expand...
Bolding isn't the problem. The problem is going from red text to black text (instead of default color. I think you have to use the remove color button to get default, no one should ever use black as a color, especially in software like Office since that conflicts with default). Although, honestly, we aren't missing much. That poster is here solely to bring up AMD in every single Intel thread.
1626991742834.png
 
lobz said:
Man, take off the blinders and don't read only those posts that fit your opinion about people. I'm 100% sure ADL will have significantly higher 1T IPC than Zen 3 does, some of which the new Vcache will mitigate, but not all and certainly not in all cases, and I certainly believe that AMD really missed the proper release cadence this time. What I hate is every moronic rumor and the hyperboles built around them. I hated adored's 5GHz 8C Zen 2 for $250 nonsense with a passion, and so I hated RKL's legendary performance tales, justified by pages long mathematical equations using GB5 scores.... Granted I'm just an enthusiast and no technical expert at all, I tend to step into the conversation when someone shows symptoms of losing their minds, to try and apply some common sense when possible. I also like it when something is funny, regardless of which side/product/company/ideal it's about. As I said, blinders. Off. Please.
Click to expand...

If we are to believe the 12900K leaked Cinebench ST and MT scores then this part looks to be faster than the 5950X, at least in this bench. While we don't know how it will perform in actual applications that do useful work, I have to say I'm surprised and cautiously optimistic.

I'd love to know what happens with this MT score when the Gracemont cores are disabled?
 
Hulk said:
If we are to believe the 12900K leaked Cinebench ST and MT scores then this part looks to be faster than the 5950X, at least in this bench. While we don't know how it will perform in actual applications that do useful work, I have to say I'm surprised and cautiously optimistic.

I'd love to know what happens with this MT score when the Gracemont cores are disabled?
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Didn't rocketlake show far more improvement in Cinebench, than in most other applications?

I will wait for more benchmarks on other applications before getting too excited about Alderlake.
 
CHADBOGA said:
Didn't rocketlake show far more improvement in Cinebench, than in most other applications?

I will wait for more benchmarks on other applications before getting too excited about Alderlake.
Click to expand...

Not that I am aware of. Source? In CB20, Rocket Lake landed exactly where one would expect it to. Rocket Lake’s performance was never the issue, power consumption is. Rocket lake and Zen 3 were pretty close when it comes to performance, tge issue is that Rocket Lake needed 2-3 times the power to get there thanks primarily to an old node.

The 8-core 11900K easily trades blows with the 8-core 5800X: https://www.anandtech.com/bench/product/2787?vs=2675

Intel’s 10nm node is comparable to TSMC 7nm, and that is what a lot of random people here don’t get, AMD is not launching a 5nm chip until well into next year, over a year from now if some rumors are to be believed. Intel is launching their 7nm node (equivalent to TSMC3/4nm, ahead of 5nm unless Intel gimps it) next year, but, if current rumors and/or announcements are to be believed, they won’t launch a 7nm (TSMC 3/4nm product) x86 part until 2023 if announcements/rumors are accurate. Intel will likely leapfrog AMD every other year if this trend continues.

Meanwhile, Golden Cove itself is rumored to offer a significant bump over Rocket Lake and Zen 3. Intel’s first gen desktop 10nm. part beats AMD’s equivalent last-gen part by several percentage points. Both Zen 2 and Zen 3 were on 7nm, that is 2 years of parts Intel is going to blow past. I’m not afraid to call it like it is. AMD had me at Zen 1 Threadripper, Zen 2 WAS A NO-BRAINER. ZEN 3 WAS A SOLID “YES FOR ME!!!” HOWEVER, I REALLY WANT ASTEROX TO STOP USING ANNOYING bold color driven text, err, what I actually (somewhat meant, Asterox, you need to chill with the colors and bold bold font before we all go on strike until you are banned. Your point can be made without using caps or colors. If you feel that people aren’t reading your posts, maybe thank twice before
posting random nonsense) was that I personally want really want awesome laptop performance at a less than 4 lb weight. AMD started it, but they have yet to finish the job. Intel is about to school AMD on the laptop and the desktop. This needs to happen, and thankfully, it appears to be happening.

Before you cheer on AMD, ask them where their 16 core laptop chips are. AMD is more than capable of producing such a chip. You should also look at my post history here and elsewhere if you think I am an Intel shill. I am not afraid to call out either company for the shenanigans they pull. I have purchased AMD/Cyrix when they were beating up Intel, and Intel when Intel nearly bankrupted AMD. I have owned 3DFX, AMD, and NVIDIA GPUs, among others. My only Agenda with tech is I love tech and love being able to do my stuff (development, video/graphics production and editing and gaming).

I don’t care who or what, Intel, AMD, NVIDIA, etc. I just want to do my thing and go home.

I have a decent track record for past predictions (people thought I was nuts about RDNA2…funny nobody talks about THAT now) and I am making another one: Intel is going to do just fine for Alder Lake. AMD will keep Intel from getting too far ahead thanks to 3D cache, but both Intel and AMD will be within 10% of each other for the foreseeable future, with one leapfrogging the other as a node advantage appears.

EDIT: Sorry about the colors/bold/caps. @Asterox is becoming an annoyance to many due to his obsession with text style. To mods: please look at his posts on desktop and mobile, and on a variety of platforms, and in both light/dark modes. You will understand why many of us are frustrated.

EDIT: I am also not implying he should be banned or anything, but rather, he should be coerced into using an automatic font, color, style, and size. There is no reason for any user to pick random arbitrary font colors or sizes on this forum (except title vs. regular) and very few reasons for font style.
 
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