Discussion Intel current and future Lakes & Rapids thread

[jpiniero]

I played with a die yield calculator, and for 2.5 defects/sqcm I got:

81 mm2 (roughly what the Icelake U/Y die is): 133 perfect die for 18.4% yield
225 mm2 (HCC die size? probably being optimistic): 8 perfect die for 3.1% yield
324 mm2 die: 3 perfect die for 1.5% yield

Of course there's no real way to know what the actual defect rate is.

 

[TheGiant]

the Icelake mobile should be out around very soon

we will see the real performance of intel's 10nm and the new lake

 

[DrMrLordX]

I was just spitballing (we don’t know any 10nm yield data). If Intel is actually getting something like 15% yields on Y/U processors, then Icelake-SP is just another dog and pony show. 1 or 2 dice per wafer is catastrophic.

I don't really know either. 15-18% is a range that's being bandied about now thanks to educated guesswork and comparisons to what were apparent yields for Cannonlake (which were . . . putrid).

But hey, if jpiniero is right, they might get 3 large dice per wafer! Yay!

I played with a die yield calculator, and for 2.5 defects/sqcm I got:

81 mm2 (roughly what the Icelake U/Y die is): 133 perfect die for 18.4% yield
225 mm2 (HCC die size? probably being optimistic): 8 perfect die for 3.1% yield
324 mm2 die: 3 perfect die for 1.5% yield

Whew. Hope the investors like dogs and ponies.

Of course there's no real way to know what the actual defect rate is.

Yup. We'll have to see what the shipping quantities are on these IceLake U/Y products and try to compare that to some kind of fudged wafer allocation data that in the end we'll all make up anyway. Intel isn't just going to tell us this stuff, at least not anytime soon.

 

[birdie]

Ice Lake based laptops will be demonstrated during Computex 2019:

https://newsroom.intel.com/news/2019-computex-intel-kickoff/

And also the special edition 9th Gen Intel® Core™ i9-9900KS CPU (all-core turbo 5GHz, 4GHz base frequency).

 

[IntelUser2000]

Intel benchmarks out for Icelake's Gen 11 GPU.

Honestly, I think Gen 11 will underperform iGPUs in 2nd Gen Ryzen mobile slightly. They are using the same settings to compare Gen 11 to Vega iGPU as when they were comparing Gen 11 to Gen 9.

I skimmed through other sites talking about it and they said the Gen 9 gets 40 fps while Gen 11 got nearly 70 fps in Counterstrike. So that's a CPU bound resolution already. Now, Gen 11 at 25W should be more than 70 fps, meaning its a CPU-bound resolution.

This is similar to using single channel memory on GTX 1060 Max-Q setups to compare to Kabylake-G's dual channel setup. The effect is only 5-10%, but still enough of a difference to say KBL-G is slightly slower than GTX 1060 max-Q versus saying its equal.

I think Gen 11 itself is a good advancement, and AMD won't have 3rd Gen mobile Ryzen for a while, so it's a legitimate competitor. I always thought Gen 11 will be roughly on par with the first gen Ryzen mobile. Second Gen Ryzen mobile doesn't do much, however being on its second year plus small optimizations made by manufacturers and AMD should put it slightly ahead of Gen 11.

Decent product, somewhat questionable marketing.

 

[birdie]

Not bad, not bad.

However, the specs were wildly different in regard to RAM speed:

• Ice Lake-U LPDDR4X-3733
• Intel 8565U 16GB DDR4-2400
• AMD 8GB DDR4-2400 (single channel? really Intel?)

And also there's a strange mix of low/med settings as if Intel tried to cherry-pick the titles to show the best performance [gains].

Absolute most consumer laptops won't be running DDR4-3733 RAM which is hugely expensive.

 

[french toast]

I am stoked to finally see some icelake action, but that marketing is a joke, plain and simple.
Leads me to think it won't take the igpu lead across most scenarios.

Looks like a really nice product though, should be very efficient.

 

[.vodka]

Not bad, not bad.

However, the specs were wildly different in regard to RAM speed:

• Ice Lake-U LPDDR4X-3733
• Intel 8565U 16GB DDR4-2400
• AMD 8GB DDR4-2400 (single channel? really Intel?)

And also there's a strange mix of low/med settings as if Intel tried to cherry-pick the titles to show the best performance [gains].

Absolute most consumer laptops won't be running DDR4-3733 RAM which is hugely expensive.

It sure is an improvement over Gen9, but that is outright deceptive marketing.

 

[IntelUser2000]

Actually, I would challenge the claim that its single channel and they merely did not state the configuration. They could have said 2x4GB instead but they did not. Notebookcheck comparisons show the Gen 11 gains over Gen 9 in Intel chart applied to comparisons roughly equal to Intel's Gen 11 vs Vega iGPU chart.

 

[tamz_msc]

LPDDR bus width is 32 bits instead of 64, so in terms of BW DDR4 2400 is greater than LPDDR4 3733.

 

[trivik12]

AMD site itself is saying only DDR-2400 support for ryzen. Is there any commercial laptop available with faster memory.

I am hoping anandtech would get a icelake laptop for review soon so that they can compare performance. But even if its not faster than radeon, coming close would be amazing after years when intel IGP was crap.

So that makes Tigerlake with Xe graphics even more exciting. if 10+ node can scale to frequencies similar to 14nm++. I will wait until next year to update my laptop. I need a great AMD laptop to compare. I want similar quality to best thinkpad( yoga), XPS and Spectre. Or a Macbook/surface with AMD or Intel. Unless we get Macbook with A14x(provided they fix their crappy keyboard).

 

[birdie]

LPDDR bus width is 32 bits instead of 64, so in terms of BW DDR4 2400 is greater than LPDDR4 3733.

I'm not sure who to believe in. SK Hynix claims it's a 64-bit wide bus:

https://www.anandtech.com/show/11021/sk-hynix-announces-8-gb-lpddr4x4266-dram-packages

 

[jpiniero]

LPDDR bus width is 32 bits instead of 64, so in terms of BW DDR4 2400 is greater than LPDDR4 3733.

It's Quad Channel technically. So it's 60 GB/sec.

 

[IntelUser2000]

LPDDR bus width is 32 bits instead of 64, so in terms of BW DDR4 2400 is greater than LPDDR4 3733.

On Icelake, its effectively 128-bits width, so its like DDR4-3733 dual channel. The Gen 11 GPU datasheet confirms this. On Lakefield, it seems like its 64-bit width, if you look at some pictures about it. At 3-5W TDP, its probably not as memory bandwidth bound anyway.

LPDDR4-3733 equipped Icelake won't be everywhere. It also supports DDR4-3200. The former will likely end up in ultrabooks and large tablets where reduced power consumption and smaller form factor due to the memory chips being on the board is a priority.

Again, I want to say I don't believe Intel used the AMD laptop with single channel configuration. You can see the gains Gen 11 had over Gen 9. And according to Intel, Gen 11 and 3700U's iGPU are roughly equal. It wouldn't be like this if the 3700U was on single channel.

 

[DrMrLordX]

Absolute most consumer laptops won't be running DDR4-3733 RAM which is hugely expensive.

I'll leave the DDR4 vs. LPDDR4X debate to the others, but I will add that LPDDR4X-4266 is out there. Somebody's gonna use it. Don't be so surprised to see high-speed LPDDR4 configurations on IceLake-U/Y wherever Intel can convince OEMs to use that tech.

https://www.anandtech.com/show/13569/micron-kicks-off-mass-production-of-12-gb-lpddr4x-dram-chip

 

[TheGiant]

any other benches out ? not the GPU but CPU

 

[IntelUser2000]

Absolute most consumer laptops won't be running DDR4-3733 RAM which is hugely expensive.

Lots of laptops run single channel memory for the same reason. Doesn't mean high end setups don't exist.

The tablets and ultrabooks using Icelake-U will certainly use LPDDR4-3733.

Note, Smartphones use even faster versions, so not ridiculously expensive, like HBM is.

 

[NostaSeronx]

My other post continued;
14nm McIVR => Mostly 90% efficiency across all loads.
10nm I/O => DDR5/CXL(PCIe5) (Includes PCH, no chipset required in new socket LGA)
2x 14nm CPUs or 14nm/10nm CPU/GPU w/ a upgrade straight to 2x 7nm CPU and 7nm/7nm CPU/GPU.
Mid-2020 or later and Mid-2021 or later.

 

[coercitiv]

Intel, can we please get those roadmaps going? It's getting really hot in here.

Whiskey Lake has considerably higher clocks than KBL-R i5, but this is getting ridiculous considering Qualcomm needs to punch through the emulation penalty as well.

 

[DrMrLordX]

@coercitiv

Huawei may have just been smacked down by, you know, politics, but Apple and Qualcomm are still comin in hot. The ARMy is on the move. Intel and AMD need to work hard to stay ahead.

 

[Dayman1225]

AMD 8GB DDR4-2400 (single channel? really Intel?)

It’s double channel, intel confirmed this (well Ryan Shrout)

 

[Dayman1225]

On Icelake, its effectively 128-bits width, so its like DDR4-3733 dual channel. The Gen 11 GPU datasheet confirms this. On Lakefield, it seems like its 64-bit width, if you look at some pictures about it. At 3-5W TDP, its probably not as memory bandwidth bound anyway.

LPDDR4-3733 equipped Icelake won't be everywhere. It also supports DDR4-3200. The former will likely end up in ultrabooks and large tablets where reduced power consumption and smaller form factor due to the memory chips being on the board is a priority.

Again, I want to say I don't believe Intel used the AMD laptop with single channel configuration. You can see the gains Gen 11 had over Gen 9. And according to Intel, Gen 11 and 3700U's iGPU are roughly equal. It wouldn't be like this if the 3700U was on single channel.

Yup Intel used dual channel for AMD

https://twitter.com/x/status/1132960655730970627

 

[TheGiant]

Intel, can we please get those roadmaps going? It's getting really hot in here.

Whiskey Lake has considerably higher clocks than KBL-R i5, but this is getting ridiculous considering Qualcomm needs to punch through the emulation penalty as well.

their 10nm mess is really hurting them
2 points of view

1. Intel can achieve performance parity or crown with 14nm
2. other can achieve performance parity because they didn't sleep

Intel needs the Chuck Norris management now- decision are happening before the proposals are presented and like Chuck Norris, need to be able to pick up a missed call

 

[Brunnis]

It’s double channel, intel confirmed this (well Ryan Shrout)

As expected, really. I can't believe how eager some people were to "guarantee 100%" that the AMD laptop was running in single channel mode...

 

[coercitiv]

their 10nm mess is really hurting them

Just to be clear, my post was intended as warning, Whiskey Lake boosts a heck of a lot higher than KBL-R so it fills a lot of ST heavy holes nicely and likely gets significantly higher performance numbers.

However, ARM is on a +XY% IPC improvement yearly crusade and they won't stop anytime soon. Cortex-A77 is looking fine and dandy and they have further plans set in place with obvious TAM expansion:

We need to see a far more agile and humble Intel. And we need to see ICL-U performing ASAP.