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Discussion Intel current and future Lakes & Rapids thread

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wahdangun

Golden Member
Feb 3, 2011
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Might have to be a little conservative on base clocks for quality yield reasons, even if functional yield is close to 100%. I imagine the 8C Turbo will be pretty high.

Remember that there isn't going to be any i5 models yielded from the 8C die unless Intel changes their mind.

It's crazy if intel just throw away the die if it can't qualified as 8 core chip. And no matter how much mature the process the yield can't be 100 %, there must be some defective die in the waffer, heck even console Apu must reserve some die space to be sacrificed to achieve near perfect yield.
 

jpiniero

Diamond Member
Oct 1, 2010
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It's crazy if intel just throw away the die if it can't qualified as 8 core chip. And no matter how much mature the process the yield can't be 100 %, there must be some defective die in the waffer, heck even console Apu must reserve some die space to be sacrificed to achieve near perfect yield.
I imagine there will be Xeons sold with the IGP disabled. Maybe if there are mobile parts the i7 will cut the L3.
 

piesquared

Golden Member
Oct 16, 2006
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Do you have any numbers backing that up, or are you projecting your own wishes to the rest of the population?

I can imagine MANY uses for a powerful CPU with an IGP. Business professionals for example. Accountants; engineers; programmers; scientists; multimedia editing; anyone who does number crunching in simulations, models, etc. A large number of use cases don't need any GPU power at all, but no one wants their $100K+/year employees sitting on their hands waiting for their computer to finish its task. Sure some of those uses may also need a GPU (if the multimedia editing goes into video encoding for example), but most do not need any GPU when the IGP is plenty powerful enough.
I see. So 8 core is miraculously going to be in high demand from all these 'business professionals'? Or is that 8 core just wasn't in high demand until intel side saddled one with their brutal igp? Nah, today an 8 core with an igp will fill a small niche but nothing of substance. Most needing 8 cores will be looking at attaching a dGPU.
 
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jpiniero

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I see. So 8 core is miraculously going to be in high demand from all these 'business professionals'? Or is that 8 core just wasn't in high demand until intel side saddled one with their brutal igp? Nah, today an 8 core with an igp will fill a small niche but nothing of substance. Most needing 8 cores will be looking at attaching a dGPU.
It'd be better if Intel improved the single thread performance than throwing moar corez in for marketing reasons but alas that's where we are. And OEMs really do want the IGP.

Will say that once Core reaches the EMIB era, I do expect Intel to not include a GPU tile with the K equivalent models.
 
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Eug

Lifer
Mar 11, 2000
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I agree 8-core will be low sales volume compared to mainstream parts. However, in an environment now with mainstream doing 6-core Intel with iGPU, 8-core with iGPU will have more relevance than it did before.

Put it this way, 8-core will be low sales volume, but I wouldn't at all be surprised if 8-core with iGPU sold nearly half as many as 8-core without iGPU, esp. if that 8-core with iGPU can do high Turbo single-core and dual-core.

If 35% of unit sales of 8-core are iGPU, and 65% of unit sales of 8-core in this class are no iGPU, can you really say that an iGPU version is not desired even if the absolute number of unit sales is low?

The question here is at what point does it no longer make sense for Intel to produce an 8-core with iGPU. Is say 25% of 8-core sales enough?
 

Thunder 57

Golden Member
Aug 19, 2007
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I see. So 8 core is miraculously going to be in high demand from all these 'business professionals'? Or is that 8 core just wasn't in high demand until intel side saddled one with their brutal igp? Nah, today an 8 core with an igp will fill a small niche but nothing of substance. Most needing 8 cores will be looking at attaching a dGPU.
You have been given numerous examples of situations where an iGPU is very much useful, but you are simply doubling down. You are stating your opinion as fact.

An enormous amount of OEM PC's can be sold with a 6 or 8 core chip and benefit from an iGPU. It space, power, and money. How many Zen CPU's were sold by OEM's before Raven Ridge? Probably not a ton. An iGPU is basically required except for special cases.
 

piesquared

Golden Member
Oct 16, 2006
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You have been given numerous examples of situations where an iGPU is very much useful, but you are simply doubling down. You are stating your opinion as fact.

An enormous amount of OEM PC's can be sold with a 6 or 8 core chip and benefit from an iGPU. It space, power, and money. How many Zen CPU's were sold by OEM's before Raven Ridge? Probably not a ton. An iGPU is basically required except for special cases.
I don't see any numerous examples, all i see are theories based on nothing and certainly not fact. Sure there is a use for an iGPU in some niche markets like i said. Although those markets become even smaller given the poor performance of intel's graphics. Doubling down? lol you are just repeating what seems like a marketing pitch, and if i'm stating my opinion as fact, so are you. Pot meet kettle.
 

Thunder 57

Golden Member
Aug 19, 2007
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OEMs do want the IGP though. Plus it'd be helpful for power saving if Intel does do a 8C mobile part.
Having an iGPU is extremely handy/useful, as it allows testing/troubleshooting if there is a problem with your GPU.

I wish there was a small iGPU on Ryzen's mainstream for example
Do you have any numbers backing that up, or are you projecting your own wishes to the rest of the population?

I can imagine MANY uses for a powerful CPU with an IGP. Business professionals for example. Accountants; engineers; programmers; scientists; multimedia editing; anyone who does number crunching in simulations, models, etc. A large number of use cases don't need any GPU power at all, but no one wants their $100K+/year employees sitting on their hands waiting for their computer to finish its task. Sure some of those uses may also need a GPU (if the multimedia editing goes into video encoding for example), but most do not need any GPU when the IGP is plenty powerful enough.
Probably musicians too. (Are you including that in multimedia editing?) Multicore, with fast single-core and dual-core Turbo speed and lots of RAM. GPU basically irrelevant as long as it can display everything on-screen properly (2D) on multiple monitors.
The iGPU will be useful in business PCs, which make up a large chunk of the desktop market. Don't underestimate the value of the iGPU for people who will benefit from more CPU grunt and only need minimal GPU/media capabilities.
Examples. "Theories based on nothing"? The business PC argument is probably the best, and it is certainly a fact that IT doesn't want to deal with discrete video cards unless they are required for ones job.
 

beginner99

Diamond Member
Jun 2, 2009
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Oh I'm sure there will be a small niche that will only require 8 CPU cores and a display out, but most interested in an 8 core CPU are going to be adding a discrete card. For those people that anemic igp is just wasted die space.
While I understand your sentiment, the iGPU still has some use case even for me as an enthusiast. For example as already said to trouble-shoot. Or nowadays with insane GPU prices to bridge over selling your old one for a good price till you can get a new one. Just adds some flexibility. Or if you are building from scratch and get a black screen on start. Is the dGPU faulty? or what is it? well you can easily test by removing the dgpu.
 

jpiniero

Diamond Member
Oct 1, 2010
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I don't see any numerous examples, all i see are theories based on nothing and certainly not fact. Sure there is a use for an iGPU in some niche markets like i said. Although those markets become even smaller given the poor performance of intel's graphics. .
The 2D Graphics performance is pretty good.

The die space taken up is kind of silly in Cannonlake and Icelake though.
 

IntelUser2000

Elite Member
Oct 14, 2003
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I don't see any numerous examples, all i see are theories based on nothing and certainly not fact. Sure there is a use for an iGPU in some niche markets like i said. Although those markets become even smaller given the poor performance of intel's graphics. Doubling down? lol you are just repeating what seems like a marketing pitch, and if i'm stating my opinion as fact, so are you. Pot meet kettle.
Are you somehow invested in being against iGPUs? Or are you just slow to change your way of thinking?

Motherboards, systems, even the chip design of the LGA115x processor is based on having the iGPU. You can cut the connectors for the iGPU display out from the motherboards, but the circuits will be there, unless they design from the ground up.

Why do you think a 8 core chip with an iGPU is a niche market? What's "niche" in your definition? 5%? Certainly the 8 core Coffeelake will be more towards enthusiasts than the rest, but there's enough that need a good CPU without needing discrete graphics. The thing is the iGPU provides an extra feature.

-Enthusiasts: Troubleshooting, extra display out, power saving
-Multi monitor support is a market by itself
-AIOs which happen to be a fast growing market
-Office PCs, those that only do 2D work, those that just want a fast general PC

The die space taken up is kind of silly in Cannonlake and Icelake though.
We don't really know this, even though its likely a good guess. Based on early Purley documents, even some Xeon server chips were going to have Cannonlake's iGPU. Expect iGPU usage to increase, not go the other way around.
 
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jpiniero

Diamond Member
Oct 1, 2010
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We don't really know this, even though its likely a good guess. Based on early Purley documents, even some Xeon server chips were going to have Cannonlake's iGPU. Expect iGPU usage to increase, not go the other way around.
Pretty sure that was just QuickSync, and it was on the Server's PCH.
 

IntelUser2000

Elite Member
Oct 14, 2003
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Pretty sure that was just QuickSync, and it was on the Server's PCH.
QuickSync is a feature of the GPU, run by using the shaders. I think you are confusing QuickAssist on the server chipsets with QuickSync. The presentation said "Cannonlake graphics and media". They put that in the accelerator section along with FPGAs.
 
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piesquared

Golden Member
Oct 16, 2006
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Are you somehow invested in being against iGPUs? Or are you just slow to change your way of thinking?

Motherboards, systems, even the chip design of the LGA115x processor is based on having the iGPU. You can cut the connectors for the iGPU display out from the motherboards, but the circuits will be there, unless they design from the ground up.

Why do you think a 8 core chip with an iGPU is a niche market? What's "niche" in your definition? 5%? Certainly the 8 core Coffeelake will be more towards enthusiasts than the rest, but there's enough that need a good CPU without needing discrete graphics. The thing is the iGPU provides an extra feature.

-Enthusiasts: Troubleshooting, extra display out, power saving
-Multi monitor support is a market by itself
-AIOs which happen to be a fast growing market
-Office PCs, those that only do 2D work, those that just want a fast general PC



We don't really know this, even though its likely a good guess. Based on early Purley documents, even some Xeon server chips were going to have Cannonlake's iGPU. Expect iGPU usage to increase, not go the other way around.

Not at all. A decent iGP would have certainly be useful, intel's anemic graphics and terrible software support has been dragging the industry down for decades however. Having the dominant market share in the mainstream price bracket gives them a responsibility to provide an acceptable solution not drag the entire industry down to their level of performance. They are blocking progress in gaming and compute since coders must make their software usable on the GPU that has the majority of share in that high volume segment. The gaming industry in particular would be much further advanced without having that anchor to drag around. If they were to use AMD's Radeon graphics on these SKUs as well, they would have something worthwhile. At least now they claim to support VESA's Adaptive Sync.

Enthusiasts- I would put the market utilizing that iGP for that purpose at less than .01%
Multi monitor support, AIOs and Office PCs- As we've been told over and over on these boards, 8 cores aren't needed for this market since that level of threaded software is few and far between. Remember, single threaded performance is what matters. Clocks on these chips will certainly be lower, leading to lower single threaded performance. An 8 core 16 thread chip is a waste of money for these purposes, and the only way they would sell more than niche is from 'aggressive' marketing and a dominant position in the industry.

Of course market share data will not reflect this since the iGPU will be counted simply by virtue of the fact that it's there. Any iGPU market share increase on units sold outside of the niche market is just a condition of it being part of the chip, not because it's useful or desired, which will again skew the data. Does steam still count intel's iGPU over that of an attached dGPU? That was the case at one time.
 

ehume

Golden Member
Nov 6, 2009
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It is an interesting discussion. My wife and I use 4-6 cores but iGPU's, not dGPU's. Our kids use four CPU cores and dGPU's. My wife and I do not play games; our kids do. There seems to be a place for both. Intel's iGPU's play streaming video, so they are adequate.
 
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jpiniero

Diamond Member
Oct 1, 2010
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An 8 core 16 thread chip is a waste of money for these purposes, and the only way they would sell more than niche is from 'aggressive' marketing and a dominant position in the industry.
From a practical standpoint it is silly but they have to release something new and I guess they feel like they don't want AMD to outdo them on core count.

The interesting thing is what they are going to do next year assuming they don't release any 10 nm client products at volume. Maybe you would see a 10+1 Coffee Lake.
 

Tup3x

Senior member
Dec 31, 2016
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It is an interesting discussion. My wife and I use 4-6 cores but iGPU's, not dGPU's. Our kids use four CPU cores and dGPU's. My wife and I do not play games; our kids do. There seems to be a place for both. Intel's iGPU's play streaming video, so they are adequate.
So far my experience with Intel's video decoder has been pretty bad. The quality has been subpar compared to Nvidia. From image processing to deinterlacing (and motion).
 

LTC8K6

Lifer
Mar 10, 2004
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So far my experience with Intel's video decoder has been pretty bad. The quality has been subpar compared to Nvidia. From image processing to deinterlacing (and motion).
What Intel decoder have you tried?
 

Eug

Lifer
Mar 11, 2000
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FWIW, I'm happy enough with Intel's hardware 10-bit HEVC decode quality for my relatively simple needs. My iMac actually has both an Intel iGPU and Polaris dGPU, but Apple uses Intel QuickSync for h.264 decode and completely ignores AMD's hardware decoder for this purpose... except in the iMac Pro which doesn't have an Intel iGPU.

These machines have fake 10-bit (8-bit + A-FRC) IPS LCD panels and I don't see any significant banding on this pseudo-10-bit panel with QuickSync.

BTW, off topic but... My old AM3 desktop (currently running 6-core Phenom II) has an nVidia GPU integrated into the motherboard, and that iGPU is all I ever use for this machine.
 
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HurleyBird

Platinum Member
Apr 22, 2003
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iGPU is a pretty big factor for me. Besides easier troubleshooting, it's always nice to have a few extra display outputs. Also, Intel's HDMI audio support blows AMD's out of the water (which in turn blows NVIDIA's out of the water), or at least that's the way things stacked up last time I compared all three vendors.

having an iGPU also means that a chip can service the laptop market if needed.
 
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CHADBOGA

Platinum Member
Mar 31, 2009
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Are you somehow invested in being against iGPUs? Or are you just slow
If AMD lacks a feature, that feature sucks.
If AMD has a feature that Intel doesn't, it is the most vital feature known to man.

Rinse and repeat.



Misquoting for an effect of insult (Or are you just slow),
plus inflammatory posting, is not allowed.


esquared
Anandtech Forum Director
 
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