nicalandia
Platinum Member
- Jan 10, 2019
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Really?Meteor Lake uses LGA 2552 says MLID. Other than that nothing really new to me.
Care to post them here as well? Save us the trouble of wading through.Really?
I don't really care much for MLID, but from my understanding of the screenshots posted in a Discord chat I'm in, what he's claiming for Meteor Lake and Arrow Lake absolutely is new. As least compared to what he was saying before. But then again, I really don't follow him, maybe someone here can take a look at those slides and come to their own judgement.
In fact, the Raptor Lake/Meteor Lake split he's suggesting sounds an awful lot like the Rembrandt/Cezanne split a certain someone (don't look at me, I don't want to point fingers) has been mocking for the last few months.
How curious.
I would were I not on mobile and stuck posting poor resolution images (limitation of the app I'm using, both horitontal and vertical resolution of images are severely cut for no reason other than plz buy membership). Unless you guys are fine with a link instead?Care to post them here as well? Save us the trouble of wading through.
Q2/Q3 for mobile Meteor Lake with Q4 for desktop Meteor Lake? (Which puts it more in Zen 5 competition territory than Zen 4 competition territory)What is new? Arrow Lake on Lion Cove+Skymont, 20A and 8+32 isn't new, although he confirmed the older leaks. Meteor Lake using Redwood Cove+Crestmont isn't new either, IPC estimates are too vague at the moment. To me it isn't new but of course not every is aware of all leaks. LGA socket number is definitely new and he even posted a picture which once again shows he has real sources (when it comes to Intel). I haven't seen the screenshot from discord, I cannot comment on this.
Q2/Q3 for mobile with Q4 for desktop? (Which puts it more in Zen 5 competition territory than Zen 4 competition territory)
Mobile MTL being reserved for high end only with mainstream getting Raptor Lake?
Arrow Lake landing in 2H 2024 rather then 1H like I'm pretty sure was the expectation till date (although the comment on Zen 6 competition is definitely premature given how little is actually known about Zen 5, and trust me, very little that's actually correct is known about Zen 5).
You shouldn't need to comment on any image from Discord, because it's one of the slides in this video you supposedly watched.
Well said.. i was massively impressed with ponte vechio using fevoros it looka so advanced..Higher R&D doesn't speed up development, unless you are severely lacking in such. A competent team does.
Most of Intel is not related to CPUs. They have the process technology team, they have massive amount of software engineers(more than VMWare), and they make networking devices. They are still involved in making motherboards for SFF devices like NUC, and for servers. Don't forget about the research team either.
They are also actively involved in development of PCs in all areas. AGP, PCI Express, USB standards are all from them.
Also, they go above and beyond supporting new designs. When companies like GPD first start out, they will support them in all areas of design, such as making a new motherboard. It's very comprehensive, taking you almost step by step even if you are a tiny startup. They certainly take a very long term view when it comes to development of the PC.
An extreme example: Contra revenue wasn't just about giving them serious discounts to the manufacturers. They took this customer support for developing a new system to a whole new level. They essentially made an entire Tablet of countless variations and pitched it to anyone interested for pretty much no money.
That's why you had so many no name vendors popping up with these things. You could take any of Intel's designs and just rebrand them, and they'd do almost everything for you. No wonder it cost them so much!
Thanks. Was on mobile at the time. Didn't want to scrub through a video. Or give it a view, tbh. And quality is plenty fine.I would were I not on mobile and stuck posting poor resolution images (limitation of the app I'm using, both horitontal and vertical resolution of images are severely cut for no reason other than plz buy membership). Unless you guys are fine with a link instead?
Here's also the Raptor Lake one, but not sure how much is new here at all. Enjoy taking potshots at it though
I guess that's possible. Though it seems like a lot of effort for a fairly minor feature (for the target market) in a refresh gen. Would be cool to see how that plays out though. You'd think DLVR would mean less pins needed.LGA1800 could allow Raptor Lake to take advantage of DLVR. Put it in LGA1700 and you lose this functionality.
I think the extra 100 pins ensure no one tries to ram ADL into a Z790/B760/H710 mobo.You'd think DLVR would mean less pins needed.
But...why would that be a problem? Idk, but breaking socket compatibility, increasing costs of new motherboards, etc. It all just seems like so much work for so little gain.I think the extra 100 pins ensure no one tries to ram ADL into a Z790/B760/H710 mobo.
Maybe the bendgate issue is also fixed in LGA1800.But...why would that be a problem? Idk, but breaking socket compatibility, increasing costs of new motherboards, etc. It all just seems like so much work for so little gain.
I doubt Intel really cares about a few degrees difference for enthusiast watercooling. Maybe if there were compelling enough reasons for a socket change otherwise, they might look into the mounting hardware, but again, think it's all just too minor. Hell, would probably be cheaper to ship one of those bracket things with every high end board than retool for a whole new socket.Maybe the bendgate issue is also fixed in LGA1800.
Skymont - We're in for a treat with this one.
So I think the gap between E and the P cores will further close, which will serve to reduce the scenarios that result in unstable or jittery experience.So aside of a 10 cores glitch with Comet Lake Intel is stagnating with 8 P-cores for years to come and hoping people won't notice because eventually 32 E-cores?
I don't see how it'll result in less. Remember I said DLVR is a separate, alternate power phase that kicks in when the load goes higher. So maybe they can save a few pins on lower current, but you need extra for concurrent current delivery.You'd think DLVR would mean less pins needed.
I don't know how you can have Raptorlake mobile launch in Q1, and Meteorlake in Q2. It has to be products that has no presence, like MTL-M. Even Q4 is pushing it. Just a Q4 mobile launch would need Ice/Comet like mix, nevermind two quarters earlier!Q2/Q3 for mobile Meteor Lake with Q4 for desktop Meteor Lake? (Which puts it more in Zen 5 competition territory than Zen 4 competition territory)
Huh, I'm kinda looking at this the opposite way. The smaller the gap between them, the less reason there is to have two separate lines at all. If, for example, Atom was within 10% of Core at 1/3 the area, then there'd be little reason to offer Core in the server market. Likewise, you increasingly stray away from a big.little type of arrangement.So I think the gap between E and the P cores will further close, which will serve to reduce the scenarios that result in unstable or jittery experience.
This is a big part of the reason it took them until now to get the hybrid config.
P vs E
Haswell vs Airmont - 137%(or 2.37x) faster per clock, plus lower clocks
Skylake vs Goldmont Plus - 70%
Willow Cove vs Tremont - 60-65%
Golden Cove vs Gracemont - 50% per clock
I wouldn't be surprised if they are aiming just a 30% gap.
Wait, hold on. I said what now? I'm suspicious of MLID's claim that there will be an ICL/CML-like split, if anything. Or did you mean desktop?Since Exist50 is saying Meteorlake won't have much mobile presence, they can technically speed up Arrowlake to come before Q4.
Oh, missed this. I think Q3 seems far more likely than Q2 for actual products, but that's more of a guess than a prediction. But at the end of the day, I think it would be good for Intel if they could quickly phase out an uncompetitive lineup (Raptor Lake mobile). Pheonix is going to destroy it if they go head to head, so the sooner Meteor Lake comes, the better. Better for Intel 4 ramp as well. The question is whether it's actually ready on time.I don't know how you can have Raptorlake mobile launch in Q1, and Meteorlake in Q2. It has to be products that has no presence, like MTL-M. Even Q4 is pushing it. Just a Q4 mobile launch would need Ice/Comet like mix, nevermind two quarters earlier!
Yes desktop haha.Wait, hold on. I said what now? I'm suspicious of MLID's claim that there will be an ICL/CML-like split, if anything. Or did you mean desktop?
I don't think the CPU comparisons will be bad, at least performance. The GPU is a problem.But at the end of the day, I think it would be good for Intel if they could quickly phase out an uncompetitive lineup (Raptor Lake mobile)
So bear in mind I am pro-hybrid approach. That said,Feel like it would be better for each to remain uniquely specialized. Efficiency and/or area for Atom, single core performance for Core. Though maybe it wouldn't hurt to unify the ISA...
12-21% IPC increase for MTL over RPL? Locuza and Semianalysis already did a great die shot analysis of MTL. It seems there were few changes to the core, so doesn't that make this IPC prediction completely impossible?Thanks. Was on mobile at the time. Didn't want to scrub through a video. Or give it a view, tbh. And quality is plenty fine.
So I'll just give my take item by item.
MTL:
ARL:
- Socket - No clue. I thought MTL/ARL would use LGA
18001700 (Edit: Typo?), but I also knew they would not be platform compatible with ADL/RPL. Could see this being true, but little difference either way. Though a new socket typically hurts motherboard prices.
- IPC - Bull. Maybe bigger than Raptor Lake, but 12-21%? Nah, he's just making stuff up.
- Clock speed regressions - Probably bull. Maybe they'll lose 100-200MHz or so, but large enough to compare to ICL? Nah. I fully expect the node shrink to make up any regression from arch/design, and personally guess that clocks will ultimately be higher between comparable SKUs.
- VPU - sure
- 2+8, 6+8 - sure, 8+16 - no
- RPL/MTL volume split - Not sure, but certainly suspicious.
- Timing - Sounds reasonable enough.
- 8+32 on 20A - Think so?
- LNC IPC - I'm thinking comparable-ish to Golden Cove's gains. Expecting >>GLC gains (like his previous "at least 30%" claim) is just nonsense. But make no mistake, LNC is probably the most important evolution of Core since its inception. Much better in a whole host of ways.
- Lion Cove is not Royal. Royal is Royal. How hard is this to understand? Clearly no clue what he's talking about.
- Skymont - We're in for a treat with this one.
- Timing - Sounds reasonable enough.
In short, I think all the "new", important details range from suspect to nonsensical, and the rest just reiterating well established rumors.
It's not small. Here's what Raichu said:12-21% IPC increase for MTL over RPL? Locuza and Semianalysis already did a great die shot analysis of MTL. It seems there were few changes to the core, so doesn't that make this IPC prediction completely impossible?
I've seen MLID be proved wrong many times before, but never as soon as he made the prediction 😆
About Meteor lake. MTL focus on how to improve the efficiency of the instruction execution, it will not widen the microarchitecture crazy like Alder lake.
Some are expecting Haswell-like gains, which is low 10%. 12% seems to be a good average. Haswell was also efficiency focused, so some have said they reduced potential performance to lower power.More improvements maybe will focus on branch prediction, Micro-operation fusion, instruction dispatch, register remake, and EU execution efficiency.