Discussion Intel current and future Lakes & Rapids thread

[eek2121]

Now that Rocket Lake has been released, looking back at our pages and pages of discussion, leaks, rumors, and now verified tests Intel's decisions are looking just a little clearer to me.

I think it really comes down to production. Intel has billions and billions of dollars of fabs and they can't let them sit idle. It's easy to say, "Why didn't they just release Tiger Lake 8 core 10SF instead of Rocket Lake?" They simply didn't have the production capability for 10SF to make this happen now. They have orders to fill and they only way they were going to be able to fill them is by utilizing their 14nm fabrication process. I assume once they produce enough Rocket Lake parts to fulfill order to Dell, HP, Acer, etc.. and enough stock for retailers they will begin to transition their fabs to 10SF.

Thing is by the time they are in full swing with 10SF/ESF, AMD will be full swing with 5nm.

I'm wondering how Intel 10ESF will compare to TMSC 5nm in terms of transistor density and power? Will the gap be larger than 14nm vs. TMSC 7nm which exists currently?

I have been saying this for a long time.

Intel’s bigger issue is going to be AMD’s 5nm refresh. Intel should really push hard to deliver 7nm earlier than planned. I doubt they will though. Their only real saving grace is that AMD is not expected to deliver client parts on 6nm or 5nm before late Q1/early Q2 of next year.

 

[dullard]

I challenge you to describe a situation for me, where AVX-512 improvement is a factor that's worth mentioning as a bullet point, talking about an i5, seeing as you so generously managed to exclude gaming performance.

I broke AVX-512 out for that very reason so that it does not contaminate the 13% gain of the non-AVX data. But, to really answer yourself, you'll have to wait. Now that AVX-512 is finally hitting mainstream in the last few months (laptops late last year and now desktops early this year) software will slowly be introduced that uses it. Think encryption/decryption. Think photo editing. Think compression. Etc. New hardware features are often a chicken and the egg problem. No mainstream software uses the new hardware features until there is new hardware available. New hardware thus has no software at the start to use the new features. This is true of any new feature set--they often look terrible at first, but when you go back and rebenchmark CPUs a year or two after launch the new CPUs look far better than they did at launch.

Gaming performance was barely changed, so of course I didn't put it into the list of changes.

 

[eek2121]

Honestly, it seems like the Core i9 11900K shouldn't even exist as a model number. That chip probably should have been called the Core i7 11700K, and the disappointing chip actually got that name should have been scrapped.

IMO they should have created a 10 core tiger lake variant for the i9.

 

[ultimatebob]

IMO they should have created a 10 core tiger lake variant for the i9.

Yeah... an 8 core "i9" processor in 2021 just seems wrong, unless it's going into a laptop.

 

[naukkis]

. Intel should really push hard to deliver 7nm earlier than planned. I doubt they will though.

Didn't you read Gelsinger IDM2.0 announcement?

So whether 7nm comes or not Intel has leadership products coming from TSMC - for all market segments.

https://newsroom.intel.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/11/2021/03/CEO-Gelsinger-quotes-57285720.pdf

 

[Panino Manino]

The price is unfortunate, but when you compare this gen 8 core against past gen 8 core, the improvement is not small. Despite all the negative feedback I feel that this is the moment of the turning point.
I hope that AMD will not face any manufacturing problems or delays and that they are still developing their new archs for high performance (and succeeding), because if Zen 4 fails to keep the current trend Intel will stomps them next time.

 

[coercitiv]

Despite all the negative feedback I fell that this is the moment of the turning point.

The negative feedback comes from Intel's asking price for the 11900K. Intel managed to make the 5800X look good in terms of pricing. Reviewers were much more understanding of 11600K, and 11700K will likely get a far less brutal welcoming party.

 

[moonbogg]

It should be i7 11900K for $380, not i9 11900K for $600.

 

[Timorous]

The price is unfortunate, but when you compare this gen 8 core against past gen 8 core, the improvement is not small. Despite all the negative feedback I fell that this is the moment of the turning point.
I hope that AMD will not face any manufacturing problems or delays and that they are still developing their new archs for high performance (and succeeding), because if Zen 4 fails to keep the current trend Intel will stomps them next time.

You say it is not small but it is smaller than zen2 to zen3 and Alderlake is looking like a smaller jump than zen3 to zen4.

 

[uzzi38]

The negative feedback comes from Intel's asking price for the 11900K. Intel managed to make the 5800X look good in terms of pricing. Reviewers were much more understanding of 10600K, and 10700K will likely get a far less brutal welcoming party.

I don't understand what Intel was thinking by sampling the 11900K for initial reviews.

They should have sampled the 11400, 11600K and maybe the 11700K. Would have drastically changed the perception on launch.

 

[Kocicak]

I don't understand what Intel was thinking by sampling the 11900K for initial reviews.

You mean they should not have shown it to anybody and preferably pretend that it does not exist???

 

[Hulk]

I don't understand what Intel was thinking by sampling the 11900K for initial reviews.

They should have sampled the 11400, 11600K and maybe the 11700K. Would have drastically changed the perception on launch.

That would be like Intel rolling over and showing its belly and saying to AMD. "You got me. I'm now the dog that makes cheaper, value processors."

Put plainly, they currently have no desktop part worthy of the i9 designation. If they had instead named the 11900K the "10900EE" they could have at least let us in on the joke. That being this is another "Emergency Edition" CPU in response to AMD in which there really currently is no response. But it would have brought some much needed levity to this unfortunate situation they are in. They would no have to publicly say it stands for anything but "Extreme Edition" and given the enthusiast community a wink. We could have given them a pass until ADL arrives.

But no, they are throwing this overpriced, underperforming part at us with serious intent and that is what is annoying. It's as if we are too stupid to realize there is a 5800X out there that is faster, uses less power, available, and cheaper. The BIG thing RKL has going for it is the iGPU and the fact that they have the capacity to put thousands and thousands of them in boxes (both cardboard and computer cases) to fill orders.

If AMD had capacity right now they could turn the industry around. But how can you "sell" your fantastic parts to Dell when you don't have the production capacity?

 

[dmens]

That would be like Intel rolling over and showing its belly and saying to AMD. "You got me. I'm now the dog that makes cheaper, value processors."

Put plainly, they currently have no desktop part worthy of the i9 designation. If they had instead named the 11900K the "10900EE" they could have at least let us in on the joke. That being this is another "Emergency Edition" CPU in response to AMD in which there really currently is no response. But it would have brought some much needed levity to this unfortunate situation they are in. They would no have to publicly say it stands for anything but "Extreme Edition" and given the enthusiast community a wink. We could have given them a pass until ADL arrives.

But no, they are throwing this overpriced, underperforming part at us with serious intent and that is what is annoying. It's as if we are too stupid to realize there is a 5800X out there that is faster, uses less power, available, and cheaper. The BIG thing RKL has going for it is the iGPU and the fact that they have the capacity to put thousands and thousands of them in boxes (both cardboard and computer cases) to fill orders.

If AMD had capacity right now they could turn the industry around. But how can you "sell" your fantastic parts to Dell when you don't have the production capacity?

What makes you think the MBAs running Intel know anything about comparative performance or anything about CPUs at all? For that matter, what makes you think they care the slightest bit about the enthusiast community?

 

[Hulk]

What makes you think the MBAs running Intel know anything about comparative performance or anything about CPUs at all? For that matter, what makes you think they care the slightest bit about the enthusiast community?

Good questions, thanks for asking.

1. They know AMD is faster. All you need to do is look at the (lack) of advertising.
2. MBA's don't need to know anything about CPU's to know which one is faster.
3. They released "K" series parts.

 

[dmens]

Good questions, thanks for asking.

1. They know AMD is faster. All you need to do is look at the (lack) of advertising.
2. MBA's don't need to know anything about CPU's to know which one is faster.
3. They released "K" series parts.

You don't get it. They do not care if it is faster and they do not care about any of the technical aspects whatsoever. Their business is to move product and the pricing is far more an exercise in perception shaping than differences in technical specs.

 

[Hulk]

You don't get it. They do not care if it is faster and they do not care about any of the technical aspects whatsoever. Their business is to move product and the pricing is far more an exercise in perception shaping than differences in technical specs.

No I don't. Sorry. I think MBA's are generally pretty darn smart. At least the one's I know. They generally can grasp concepts quickly.

 

[sao123]

No I don't. Sorry. I think MBA's are generally pretty darn smart. At least the one's I know. They generally can grasp concepts quickly.

Consider that consumer device sales are only a percentage of what intel sells, but even including the enthusiast segment, Intels core business is Business.
When you sell 15,000 devices to a single customer in a single purchase with an I7 product line at a specific price point, that is where the focus is.

It doesnt have to be the fastest, nor the least power consumption, just the ability to produce mass units in volume.
Most enterprise class businesses won't even look at an AMD processor.

 

[Gideon]

Literally nobody has ignored the 6 core i5s in the past 1-2 years. It's been the FIRST day of the review cycle, I don't really understand the drama the tweeting person's going through.

Well Intel themselves also screwed up bigtime with the marketing of 11400. It's by far their best CPU of the lineup (for the price) and zero marketing or review samples.

Among more features and better productivity performance it's also 5% faster than 10400 in gaming for only $180 (with F version being even cheaper):

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1377317665975500803

And this is on a z490 motherboard with overclocked ram on both. Realisticly this goes into a cheap B460e where the difference will be even higher due to memory overclocking capability.

 

[JoeRambo]

What a great review for enthusiasts. This guy does it all, entusiast memory setups for all CPUs involved, OC to 5.2ghz, ton of stuff really. Kinda sad that it is in russian, still numbers speak for themselves?

 

[IntelUser2000]

Cometlake is cheaper, because Rocketlake prices are inflated compared to MSRP. HWUB Steve recommends the 10600K, not the 11600K, nor the Ryzen 5600X.

The thing is, by the time Rocketlake has even the slightest chance to return to MSRP, Alderlake will be right around the corner.

Most enterprise class businesses won't even look at an AMD processor.

That's called reputation, and one Intel is losing quickly. If they keep this up AMD will become #1 in revenue and marketshare.

Right now they are riding on the reputation they have built over the years. As it can be gained, it can also be lost.

Of course the transition doesn't happen instantaneously.

 

[jpiniero]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1376593245304713216

Intel also made a new Comet Lake Refresh SKU for i5 - the 10505. Nothing too amazing since it's just a 100 mhz base and boost over the 10500.

 

[Mopetar]

It should be i7 11900K for $380, not i9 11900K for $600.

It also shouldn't even be called the 11900K, because in a lot of cases it's inferior to the 10900K. Just rename it to 11700K and push everything else down.

 

[Zucker2k]

As Anand used to write, "There are no bad products, only bad price points."

The problem with Rocket Lake isn't so much the performance, it's simply meant as a placeholder until Alder Lake arrives, it's the pricing.

The 5800X is a better performer than the 11900K so the 11900K should be priced less than the 5800X and then the rest of the stack below that. I wrote this same sentiment in this thread when preliminary pricing was revealed and I remember I was chided by someone. Looks like my assessment back then was correct regarding the pricing structure based on preliminary performance reports.

The 11700k is the 5800x competitor. It'll do almost everything the 11900k will do. Overclocking is a wash. The UHD 750 isn't free either. The i9 is priced like that for no reason other than the fact that it's a segment filler and competes with the R9 12 core.

 

[Zucker2k]

What a great review for enthusiasts. This guy does it all, entusiast memory setups for all CPUs involved, OC to 5.2ghz, ton of stuff really. Kinda sad that it is in russian, still numbers speak for themselves?

This is another well done video for enthusiasts

 

[moonbogg]

It also shouldn't even be called the 11900K, because in a lot of cases it's inferior to the 10900K. Just rename it to 11700K and push everything else down.

Yep. Its semi-worthy to be considered a 10700K replacement, but just barely. The biggest selling point would be PCI-E 4.0 but not the CPU performance. The price of this thing is absolutely hilarious. Maybe in a few months it will drop to $250. Honestly right now if the 11900K was $350 it would be fine. I think $380 or anything close to $400 is just too much. That's 5800X territory and the 5800X just craps all over it. If I were buying right now I'd get a 10850K for $320 or 10700K for $250.