• Guest, The rules for the P & N subforum have been updated to prohibit "ad hominem" or personal attacks against other posters. See the full details in the post "Politics and News Rules & Guidelines."

Discussion Intel current and future Lakes & Rapids thread

Page 380 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

Hulk

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
3,014
458
126
And when faced with 100% guaranteed loss of money implied in such upgrade, they have chosen to cheapen out and bought the most basic of Z490 motherboards there is out there. The guys who do such upgrades are enthusiasts and one can bet that they did their research properly.
Not only they will have Z490 that supports RKL, but most likely that mb will also properly support PCIE4 (again result of their research ) and have awesome power delivery components that were already required by 10th gen.
You are right of course. I was just adding another admittedly "remote" possibility.

Just finished reading the Anandtech 11700K review.
Now I have to digest this...
 
Last edited:

jpiniero

Diamond Member
Oct 1, 2010
9,336
1,882
136

Videocardz has Tiger Lake H45 specs based off of a laptop. The base clocks are pretty low but I suppose the laptop manufacturer could be using cTDP down.
 

eek2121

Senior member
Aug 2, 2005
990
1,070
136

Videocardz has Tiger Lake H45 specs based off of a laptop. The base clocks are pretty low but I suppose the laptop manufacturer could be using cTDP down.
Yep, also I wouldn’t read too much into the base clocks. I saw some users comparing them to AMD while ignoring the fact that boost clocks are higher. The turbo profile could also be completely different between the two.

We will have to wait for benchmarks, but IMO this chip should have been launched as a desktop chip rather than rocket lake.
 

Gideon

Golden Member
Nov 27, 2007
1,353
2,586
136

Videocardz has Tiger Lake H45 specs based off of a laptop. The base clocks are pretty low but I suppose the laptop manufacturer could be using cTDP down.
There is quite a big difference in base-clocks for the single halo 45W+ model (2.6 GHz) vs 2.1 Ghz for other 45W models.

AMD in comparison has two 45W+ models and their base clocks. are pretty much the same vs 45W models (3.3 vs 3.2).

I guess they don't want to admit it probably needs 55-65W to reach those >2.5Ghz base clocks with AVX-512.
 

Gideon

Golden Member
Nov 27, 2007
1,353
2,586
136
Regarding Rocket-Lake, ouch that's really underwhelming! New microcode might help things a bit but it won't turn the thing around.

The first thing Intel has to fix with Alder Lake is to get it out in time.

I'm not even talking about 10nm. All their 14nm desktop CPUs since Coffee-Lake have slipped at least a quarter. All of the Server models as well, starting from and including Skylake-X (that's why EPYC was compared to Broadwell-X on release). And that's with all of them being essentially the same architecture with minor tweaks.

Intel is unbelievably consistent in their inability to execute with every single CPU launchsince 2017 (most of them essentially the same arch on the same node). Apple, for comparison, managed to release a new architecture on time every year since then, often on new node, going from A10 to A14, essentially doubling their SpecINT2006 score from 36.8 to 63.34.

Even if they manage to get a good hardware stepping of Alder Lake in time, they still need to get their microcode and OS Big-Little support in order. Based on past performance I'm not holding my breath they'll get it done in within 9 months after Rocket Lake.

I wouldn't mind at all if they prove me wrong, but so far 2021 looks like smooth saling for AMD, if they only manage to get more supply out.
 
Last edited:

tomatosummit

Member
Mar 21, 2019
54
29
61
Is there any real proof that the 45w 11th gen mobile cpus are tiger lake?
The press slide from them reads almost identically to rocket lake, most telling is the 20pcie lanes and now this twitter leak mentioned 2mb l3$ per core on the i5 albeit not mentioning the layout on 8 core cpus.
I think it's rocket lake. The only hint about 8 core tiger lake was a comment from that intel suit about a larger 8core die would have 24MB of l3$.
 

mikk

Diamond Member
May 15, 2012
3,137
946
136
Is there any real proof that the 45w 11th gen mobile cpus are tiger lake?
The press slide from them reads almost identically to rocket lake, most telling is the 20pcie lanes and now this twitter leak mentioned 2mb l3$ per core on the i5 albeit not mentioning the layout on 8 core cpus.
I think it's rocket lake. The only hint about 8 core tiger lake was a comment from that intel suit about a larger 8core die would have 24MB of l3$.

Yes basically Intel confirmed it, they said Willow Cove 8 core will come with 24MB LLC. Intel wouldn't call it Tigerlake-H if it's based on something different than Willow Cove. Apart from the cache rebuild Sunny/Cypress/Willow are basically the same, so it's no surprise they look similar on paper.

The Willow Cove core increases the mid-level cache to 1.25MB — up from 512KB. We also added a 3MB non-inclusive last-level-cache (LLC) per core slice. A single core workload has access to 12MB of LLC in the 4-core die or up to 24MB in the 8-core die configuration (more detail on 8-core products at a later date).
 

tomatosummit

Member
Mar 21, 2019
54
29
61
Yes basically Intel confirmed it,
All that quote says is that there's a plan for an 8core somewhere and the cache layout is 1+1=2.
I haven't seen anything that ties 11th gen H45 cores to tiger lake. Everything else lines up more with rocket lake, 8cores, clock speeds, 20lanes, time to market and a long history of desktop cpu dies being used in high end laptops.
 

mikk

Diamond Member
May 15, 2012
3,137
946
136
All that quote says is that there's a plan for an 8core somewhere and the cache layout is 1+1=2.
I haven't seen anything that ties 11th gen H45 cores to tiger lake. Everything else lines up more with rocket lake, 8cores, clock speeds, 20lanes, time to market and a long history of desktop cpu dies being used in high end laptops.

Yes and the quote confirmed Willow Cove 8C will get 24MB LLC which is Tigerlake-H 8C. RKL-S didn't get the Willow Cove cache rebuild, it's based on Sunny Cove. By the way all 11th gen mobiles are based on Tigerlake, Tigerlake-U or Tigerlake-H. Rocket Lake is only for desktop, RKL-U has ben canceled.
 

Spartak

Senior member
Jul 4, 2015
352
263
136
Is there any real proof that the 45w 11th gen mobile cpus are tiger lake?
The press slide from them reads almost identically to rocket lake, most telling is the 20pcie lanes and now this twitter leak mentioned 2mb l3$ per core on the i5 albeit not mentioning the layout on 8 core cpus.
I think it's rocket lake. The only hint about 8 core tiger lake was a comment from that intel suit about a larger 8core die would have 24MB of l3$.
It is widely known rocket lake H has been cancelled. For mobile it would be a powerhog. Not sure why you think they would launch a 14nm previous gen Sunny Cove backport for mobile when they also have Tiger Like on 10nm SF.
 
Last edited:

Spartak

Senior member
Jul 4, 2015
352
263
136
All that quote says is that there's a plan for an 8core somewhere and the cache layout is 1+1=2.
I haven't seen anything that ties 11th gen H45 cores to tiger lake. Everything else lines up more with rocket lake, 8cores, clock speeds, 20lanes, time to market and a long history of desktop cpu dies being used in high end laptops.
Dude seriously. It is literally stated in that quote that Willow Cove 11th Gen will be extended to 8-core products. Rocket Lake is *not* Willow Cove.

The H-range is based on Willow cove and 10nm SF. Doing anything else for their top of the line H product - seeing Rocket Lake's horrible performance/watt - would be suicidal. Not sure why you keep beating a dead horse.
 

jpiniero

Diamond Member
Oct 1, 2010
9,336
1,882
136

Hulk

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
3,014
458
126
I've had a few days to review and think about the 11700K review. One of the big questions around here was would Rocket Lake be able to equal or possibly beat Zen 3 when it comes to work rate? I had written previously based in leaked information I thought Rocket Lake and Zen 3 would be pretty comparable in terms of throughput and due to the higher clocks of Rocket Lake it would be the better overall performer core-for-core.

If Ian's preliminary review benchmarks prove to be the final result then it looks like I was wrong. Zen 3 clock-for-clock looks to be better than Willow Cove nearly across the board. I'm kind of shocked and confused. While Willow Cove shows +19% integer over Skylake it's much less in FP and furthermore it just doesn't seem to add up when compared to Zen 3.

Thus far it's kind of a disappointing start for Rocket Lake.
 

dullard

Elite Member
May 21, 2001
22,792
1,031
126
I've had a few days to review and think about the 11700K review. One of the big questions around here was would Rocket Lake be able to equal or possibly beat Zen 3 when it comes to work rate? I had written previously based in leaked information I thought Rocket Lake and Zen 3 would be pretty comparable in terms of throughput and due to the higher clocks of Rocket Lake it would be the better overall performer core-for-core.

If Ian's preliminary review benchmarks prove to be the final result then it looks like I was wrong. Zen 3 clock-for-clock looks to be better than Willow Cove nearly across the board. I'm kind of shocked and confused. While Willow Cove shows +19% integer over Skylake it's much less in FP and furthermore it just doesn't seem to add up when compared to Zen 3.

Thus far it's kind of a disappointing start for Rocket Lake.
Intel's 19% number comes from here:
Up to 19% IPC performance improvement (gen over gen)- Source: Intel estimates as of January 2021. Based on measurements on Intel Internal reference platforms running SPEC CPU 2017 1-copy rate on 11th Gen Intel® Core™ i9-11900K vs 10th Gen Intel® Core™ i9-10900K (running each at the same fixed frequency).
I think people (A) ignore the "up to" portion and (B) ignore the fact that Intel was talking about only one specific benchmark and not 19% on everything.

That said, I'm going to wait a few weeks for the actual pricing and final performance benchmarks before making final conclusions. I'm not very hopeful, but maybe there will be a glimmer of good news there.
 

eek2121

Senior member
Aug 2, 2005
990
1,070
136
I've had a few days to review and think about the 11700K review. One of the big questions around here was would Rocket Lake be able to equal or possibly beat Zen 3 when it comes to work rate? I had written previously based in leaked information I thought Rocket Lake and Zen 3 would be pretty comparable in terms of throughput and due to the higher clocks of Rocket Lake it would be the better overall performer core-for-core.

If Ian's preliminary review benchmarks prove to be the final result then it looks like I was wrong. Zen 3 clock-for-clock looks to be better than Willow Cove nearly across the board. I'm kind of shocked and confused. While Willow Cove shows +19% integer over Skylake it's much less in FP and furthermore it just doesn't seem to add up when compared to Zen 3.

Thus far it's kind of a disappointing start for Rocket Lake.
The issue is that Intel does not really have a clock speed advantage. A Ryzen 5950x will boost to 5 ghz. An 11900K is just a hair ahead in clock speed, but slower in terms of IPC. Rocket Lake has a multicore clock advantage, but you are talking 1.5X the power in those scenarios. Rocket Lake has some advantages, of course, in terms of AVX. However, it is quite clear that Intel has pushed things a bit too far.

Tiger Lake H 8-core actually has a 65W TDP mode. I am VERY curious to see the differences.
 

DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
17,268
6,265
136
Willow Cove
Just an FYI but Rocket Lake isn't Willow Cove - it's Jasper Cypress Cove, a backported Sunny Cove. With apparent L3 latency problems and some really stupid issues with the IMC.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Tlh97

jpiniero

Diamond Member
Oct 1, 2010
9,336
1,882
136
Just an FYI but Rocket Lake isn't Willow Cove - it's Jasper Cove, a backported Sunny Cove. With apparent L3 latency problems and some really stupid issues with the IMC.
Cypress Cove. The IMC issues might be why Ice Lake only supports up to 3733.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Tlh97

Hulk

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
3,014
458
126
Intel's 19% number comes from here:

I think people (A) ignore the "up to" portion and (B) ignore the fact that Intel was talking about only one specific benchmark and not 19% on everything.

That said, I'm going to wait a few weeks for the actual pricing and final performance benchmarks before making final conclusions. I'm not very hopeful, but maybe there will be a glimmer of good news there.
I was stupid and gullible. Intel's press info fooled me into thinking Rocket Lake would equal or beat Zen 3 clock-for-clock. You are absolutely correct. They tricked me but good! That's why I come to Anandtech for the truth. Anybody know where I can buy a video card?;)
 
  • Haha
Reactions: lightmanek

ASK THE COMMUNITY