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Discussion Intel current and future Lakes & Rapids thread

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yeshua

Member
Aug 7, 2019
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I'm sure this result has been discussed ad nauseam but I still admire it so much I'm gonna post it once again:

https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu/1058208 / https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu/1058208.gb5 (mind the second link).

What's interesting is that Tiger Lake

1) easily boosts to 4.2GHz so Intel definitely has progress in terms of frequency
2) base frequency is 2.3GHz which is a whole lot higher than the existing Ice Lake CPUs
3) Both ST and MT results are extremely impressive 1400/4920 points which is higher than any low voltage four-core CPU. In fact the MT result is even more impressive.

Looks like 10nm+ is finally starting to work for them though they have yet to crack even higher frequencies like AMD has managed with the TSMC 7nm node (4.6GHz).

I'm a little concerned there's seemingly zero increase in IPC vs ICL. Intel promised at the very least a 10% uplift and it's just not there. Considering the frequencies the sample ran at, it should have scored 1540 points in ST mode.
 
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lobz

Golden Member
Feb 10, 2017
1,567
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That's not even his worst take on the subject, he tweeted right after that:


To show how bad Intel is going to "pulverize" AMD in mobile offerings, he linked to a comparison of an unreleased, most likely top of the line TGL product against a 2500u. Yes, he compared intel's best unreleased product to AMD's mid tier 14 nm (not even 12nm) mobile processor launched over 2 years ago.
The man is golden!!! Good laughs, thanks for the share :D
 
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Exist50

Member
Aug 18, 2016
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A little confused here. CPU design at Hillsboro is gone? Only Israel is doing 'Core' development?
To clarify, only Core (capitalization important) development in Oregon is dead. Unless something has radically changed, they still handle CPU/SoC development, just using IDC's cores. If memory serves, IDC handled Skylake, its derivatives, and Icelake, while the Oregon team did Tiger Lake. Last I heard, IDC was going to do Rocket Lake and Alder Lake, while the Oregon team would do Meteor Lake.

Also, in response to the Keller speculation, I'm unsure of the exact timeline, but am pretty sure this was before he arrived. Maybe around 2017? How things might have changed since then, I can't say.
 

itsmydamnation

Platinum Member
Feb 6, 2011
2,180
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I'm a little concerned there's seemingly zero increase in IPC vs ICL. Intel promised at the very least a 10% uplift and it's just not there. Considering the frequencies the sample ran at, it should have scored 1540 points in ST mode.
Intel didn't say 10% IPC they said 10% performance, they can get that with boost/base clock improvement alone.
 

Nothingness

Platinum Member
Jul 3, 2013
2,158
406
126
Do you think the Intel engineers are iterating to improve functional yield or clocks?
With today’s simulation software and FPGA test chips, I’d think rolling good A0 silicon is a high probability.
FPGA and other verification tools only ensure functional correctness. The rest like frequency and power can only be estimated by various tools which accuracy is far from perfect. I guess that's where you get most of the steppings from.

That being said even functional correctness is not always guaranteed before implementation and having silicon helps you run more cycles which might uncover new functional bugs.
 
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Exist50

Member
Aug 18, 2016
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FPGA and other verification tools only ensure functional correctness. The rest like frequency and power can only be estimated by various tools which accuracy is far from perfect. I guess that's where you get most of the steppings from.

That being said even functional correctness is not always guaranteed before implementation and having silicon helps you run more cycles which might uncover new functional bugs.
Also, they require your design to be synthesizable.
 

mikk

Diamond Member
May 15, 2012
3,041
838
136
I'm a little concerned there's seemingly zero increase in IPC vs ICL. Intel promised at the very least a 10% uplift and it's just not there. Considering the frequencies the sample ran at, it should have scored 1540 points in ST mode.

Not correct, they promised a double digits CPU uplift, this a combination of IPC and frequency. Current Geekbench results are stepping 0 based, later steppings are faster.
 

exquisitechar

Senior member
Apr 18, 2017
466
533
106
I'm sure this result has been discussed ad nauseam but I still admire it so much I'm gonna post it once again:

https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu/1058208 / https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu/1058208.gb5 (mind the second link).

What's interesting is that Tiger Lake

1) easily boosts to 4.2GHz so Intel definitely has progress in terms of frequency
2) base frequency is 2.3GHz which is a whole lot higher than the existing Ice Lake CPUs
3) Both ST and MT results are extremely impressive 1400/4920 points which is higher than any low voltage four-core CPU. In fact the MT result is even more impressive.

Looks like 10nm+ is finally starting to work for them though they have yet to crack even higher frequencies like AMD has managed with the TSMC 7nm node (4.6GHz).

I'm a little concerned there's seemingly zero increase in IPC vs ICL. Intel promised at the very least a 10% uplift and it's just not there. Considering the frequencies the sample ran at, it should have scored 1540 points in ST mode.
The scores are good but indicate 0 improvement over ICL clock for clock. The overall score is somewhat inflated by the insane crypto score, the integer/FP scores are less impressive and they are what actually matters. The frequency isn’t all that great, this is a 28W part and the 28W ICL 1068G7 is already supposed to boost to 4.1GHz, it’s just been vaporware so far. Intel said it’s coming, though.
I'm sure the engineering team working on this project would love that but the chances of that happening is near zero.
Haven’t we already seen a newer stepping? Just not in a GB result.
 

DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
16,887
5,844
136
I'm a little concerned there's seemingly zero increase in IPC vs ICL. Intel promised at the very least a 10% uplift and it's just not there. Considering the frequencies the sample ran at, it should have scored 1540 points in ST mode.
I'm sure I've said it at least once before, but there is the possibility that the cache restructuring in Tiger Lake may cause it to perform better in certain narrow cases vs. Ice Lake that aren't represented well in Geekbench 5.
 
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Adonisds

Member
Oct 27, 2019
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That's not even his worst take on the subject, he tweeted right after that:


To show how bad Intel is going to "pulverize" AMD in mobile offerings, he linked to a comparison of an unreleased, most likely top of the line TGL product against a 2500u. Yes, he compared intel's best unreleased product to AMD's mid tier 14 nm (not even 12nm) mobile processor launched over 2 years ago.
That's interesting, I just found out I got blocked by him after replying to the tweet where he was comparing the 9900K to the 64 cores Rome in single threaded performance. I'm sure it wasn't anything toxic.
 

uzzi38

Golden Member
Oct 16, 2019
1,385
2,574
96
That's interesting, I just found out I got blocked by him after replying to the tweet where he was comparing the 9900K to the 64 cores Rome in single threaded performance. I'm sure it wasn't anything toxic.
Welcome to the club then

He blocks anyone that says something reasonable back to him that disagrees with what he says.
 

Ajay

Diamond Member
Jan 8, 2001
8,186
3,122
136
To clarify, only Core (capitalization important) development in Oregon is dead. Unless something has radically changed, they still handle CPU/SoC development, just using IDC's cores. If memory serves, IDC handled Skylake, its derivatives, and Icelake, while the Oregon team did Tiger Lake. Last I heard, IDC was going to do Rocket Lake and Alder Lake, while the Oregon team would do Meteor Lake.

Also, in response to the Keller speculation, I'm unsure of the exact timeline, but am pretty sure this was before he arrived. Maybe around 2017? How things might have changed since then, I can't say.
That checks with what I've seen for hiring at Hillsboro. Thanks.
 

Ajay

Diamond Member
Jan 8, 2001
8,186
3,122
136
I'm sure I've said it at least once before, but there is the possibility that the cache restructuring in Tiger Lake may cause it to perform better in certain narrow cases vs. Ice Lake that aren't represented well in Geekbench 5.
Depending on what was done, it could even be hurting PPC in order to reach higher clocks. We really won't know till we gets some details (which may not be till release).
 

lobz

Golden Member
Feb 10, 2017
1,567
1,983
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Intel didn't say 10% IPC they said 10% performance, they can get that with boost/base clock improvement alone.
To clarify this: people here said 8% for weeks, saying that it'll still be ahead of Zen 3, because 18% (Sunny) + 8% (Willow) is 27,4% higher IPC than SKL, therefore faster than Zen 3 and than life etc. If you read this thread back, they really seemed to paint the picture as if it was not just that simple, but also certain to happen.
 
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liahos1

Senior member
Aug 28, 2013
573
45
91
Intel just posted record financial results
- 20.2bln of Q4'19 revenue, wall street expected 19.2bln
- Guided to 19bln of Q1'20 revenue, wall street expected $17.2
- DCG was up 19% yoy at 7.2bln, beating analyst esimates of 6.4bln
- CCG was at 10bln, beating analyst estimates of 9.74bln
- They guided to 17bln of capex vs street estimates of 16bln. And reiterated increasing wafer capacity by another 25% this year.

Notably, DCG ASPs were UP 5% yoy, despite ROME.

More interestingly - Intel stated
"10nm yield ahead of expectations… accelerating transition with nine product releases in 2020 "

Seems like they are doing well. I wonder what the accelerated products are?
 

krumme

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2009
5,906
1,527
136
Intel just posted record financial results
- 20.2bln of Q4'19 revenue, wall street expected 19.2bln
- Guided to 19bln of Q1'20 revenue, wall street expected $17.2
- DCG was up 19% yoy at 7.2bln, beating analyst esimates of 6.4bln
- CCG was at 10bln, beating analyst estimates of 9.74bln
- They guided to 17bln of capex vs street estimates of 16bln. And reiterated increasing wafer capacity by another 25% this year.

Notably, DCG ASPs were UP 5% yoy, despite ROME.

More interestingly - Intel stated
"10nm yield ahead of expectations… accelerating transition with nine product releases in 2020 "

Seems like they are doing well. I wonder what the accelerated products are?
Intel is for the most part in a monopoly market so when they are supply constrained, and demand is fairly stable, prices, asp and revenue goes up. Ask OPEC. Same mechanism. Intels portfolio is weak but it really matters little now and next year because amd is so insignificant.
Cant continue in 3 years time unless 10nm and 7nm comes om track, because TSMC 5nm is comming full steam no matter what.
 
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liahos1

Senior member
Aug 28, 2013
573
45
91
Intel is for the most part in a monopoly market so when they are supply constrained, and demand is fairly stable, prices, asp and revenue goes up. Ask OPEC. Same mechanism. Intels portfolio is weak but it really matters little now and next year because amd is so insignificant.
Cant continue in 3 years time unless 10nm and 7nm comes om track, because TSMC 5nm is comming full steam no matter what.
Thank you for the business analysis, but what do you think the accelerated 10nm products are?
 

TheGiant

Senior member
Jun 12, 2017
739
337
106
Thank you for the business analysis, but what do you think the accelerated 10nm products are?
I am hoping for 10nm desktop parts and some 16C HEDT with possible more than 4 mem channels (or server)
I wonder what one API brings to the business, maybe more of shared CPU/GPU resources for general desktop computing....
 

Dayman1225

Golden Member
Aug 14, 2017
1,007
591
106
Thank you for the business analysis, but what do you think the accelerated 10nm products are?
Bob said:
  • Tigerlake
  • Snow Ridge SoC
  • First dGPU
  • Xeon for DC, Storage and Networking
  • AI ASICs
and I assume more, since thats 7.
 

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