Intel Clover Trail CPU/GPU and light gaming

[Gabik123]

Hey guys, I'm new to this forum but Anandtech seems to have by far the most knowledgeable people in terms of raw tech info, so I found this would be the best place to ask this question

I'm in the market for a hybrid win8 tablet. At the moment, I'm looking very hard between the Surface RT, the Samsung Series 5 slate/Ativ Smart PC and the Samsung Series 7/Ativ Smart PC Pro or the Surface Pro at the high end...the price is right for the Acer W700 but I can't stand the plastic kickstand/port replicator + bluetooth keyboard combo.

To be honest, I'm leaning towards the Series 5 slate, with the RT and Pro models being outside options - I like the alure of full windows for when I want to use legacy software like games not available in the windows store or even media apps like VLC. I've heard some horror stories about the Clover Trail chips, but the early reviews for the W510, the only Clover Trail powered tablet reviewers have gotten to talk about yet, say performance was very good. However, no one has been willing to benchmark the thing yet.

Seeing as how this is based on basic Atom architecture, I have no expectations that the atom can handle something like battlefield 3. I'm just wondering if anyone has seen any benchmarks for this thing for older games, maybe something like freelancer or starcraft, that can be played quick and easy? I'm sure once the windows store starts to get actual game app submissions, there will be enough ipad-like mobile games to keep me happy.

That said, what do you guys think of the choices? Anyone know how performance of the Atom is vs. Tegra 3? And do you think I'll miss anything by going RT vs. x86? Or should I just suck up the extra weight and price and go for a pro model?

 

[Arkaign]

Ugh. I'd really advise getting a used/refurb gaming laptop for your gaming needs, and a decent android tablet or used iPad for your tablet needs. Trying to have it all from a 1st-gen Intel/Win8 tablet is probably going to work out horribly at best.

 

[Gabik123]

Ugh. I'd really advise getting a used/refurb gaming laptop for your gaming needs, and a decent android tablet or used iPad for your tablet needs. Trying to have it all from a 1st-gen Intel/Win8 tablet is probably going to work out horribly at best.

I have an ipad (probably going to switch down to an ipad mini when it comes out, I use it for light mobile gaming and reading and that form factor will serve me better).

I need a laptop-style device (hence looking at hybrids) that I can actually get some work done on but takes advantage of w8's touch capabilities and is thin and light enough for me to take with (I'm an attorney and I carry around ALOT of crap in my briefcase so the less wieght the better). I was drawn to the tablets because they support full office and the hybrids have legitimate keyboard docks with the extra battery support, which is something the ipad doesnt match, even if it was ever to get a full-feature word processor (I've tried every office program there is on the ipad, havent found a good one yet).

The reason I asked about gaming was that I know they can handle the internet/email/office stuff just fine - SSD plus any processor can do it. The gaming stuff is nebulous right now because, even though there are reviewers who have written up reviews on the W510, no one has been willing to post cpu and gpu benchmarks. The CPU doesnt bug me too much in terms of performance - even light games are more likely to get stuck behind a GPU bottleneck. And as more iOS/Android games get ported to windows, the concern about having traditional PC/desktop games will grow smaller and smaller.

The problem is that gaming laptops are too damn heavy and thick, and gaming isn't really the number 1 purpose I have for this device anyways. I know I can have it all from a pro model, they are just weight and cost prohibitive (I have to REALLY want it to shell out that kind of cash, and I suspect the weight will kill the deal for me).

Then there is the added question of whether developers will release RT and x86 versions of all their apps as well, or focus on a single platform. From what I understand about the microsoft SDK tools, apparently it isn't hard to do that, but there is alot of uncertainty.

I realize im hamstrung by being an early adopter...lol. I can't keep my hands off, I love being the first one to have something, and if I don't like it, there is always craigslist lol. So I guess I'm just trying to see if anyone knows anything concrete about the performance of the Clover Trial atom gpu/cpu and whether or not it will be worth the likely $200 increase in cost of the device.

 

[piesquared]

Your best choice is an AMD Hondo based convertible tablet and use AMD AppZone for Android apps and GPU acceleration. You will get the best game, driver and software support. inetl is notorious for bottom of the barel graphics performance, image corruption, rendering problems, poor driver support etc, etc. If gaming is in any way part of your criteria AMD is the only way to go now and for the forseeable future.

 

[Gabik123]

Your best choice is an AMD Hondo based convertible tablet and use AMD AppZone for Android apps and GPU acceleration. You will get the best game, driver and software support. inetl is notorious for bottom of the barel graphics performance, image corruption, rendering problems, poor driver support etc, etc. If gaming is in any way part of your criteria AMD is the only way to go now and for the forseeable future.

Damn I didn't even consider this! Any idea if there are any Hondo tablets in the pipeline for win8 launch?

 

[happysmiles]

November I'd say

I play the original dota still and it runs consistently smoother on my atom than it does on the c-50 because of the CPU bottleneck.

25fps in normal, 20 fps in big fights with Atom

37 fps normal, 14 fps (more freezes also) in big fights with C-50

then again we all know that blizzard games use CPU a lot ^_^

 

[Gabik123]

Interesting...

So I've been doing more reading online...I think I'm going to just buy a series 5 slate and an i3-based acer w700 since it has the same graphics as an i5 and processor, besides no turboboost, is sufficient (unless the surface pro wows with its price), and test them. Microsoft store doesnt have a restocking fee if the item is still in new condition, so I'll test out both and return the one that doesnt meet my needs. Hondo sounds good, but considering gaming is basically the second purpose of the device, what i've seen about the processor isn't impressive.

 

[Ferzerp]

Damn I didn't even consider this! Any idea if there are any Hondo tablets in the pipeline for win8 launch?

Be warned that you're conversing with an incessant promotor of AMD products regardless of performance as well as someone with a really irrational hate for Intel.

You pretty much can't take anything he says as true (based solely on his word) and will need to verify any claims he makes with an independent source.

edit: To clarify what I mean, the reality of any situation makes absolutely no difference. That individual will *always* tell you that AMD is superior. His posts have no basis in reality. If they happen to be correct, it is not due to any desire for accuracy, but is pure coincidence.

 

[NTMBK]

Damn I didn't even consider this! Any idea if there are any Hondo tablets in the pipeline for win8 launch?

I'd wait until you see some reviews- it's quite likely that Hondo will beat Clovertrail in performance, but the battery life is the thing to watch out for.

As others have said, 1st gen Windows 8 tablets won't be too great- both Intel and AMD are bringing out "stopgap" chips for tablets, not their A-game. If you can, I'd hang on until Valleyview and Jaguar are out. Valleyview is the first refresh of Atom's design since Atom originally came out, so I'd expect a pretty big improvement!

 

[Yuriman]

The w700 probably isn't a bad choice, an i3 with HD4k graphics is a pretty solid machine, even for light gaming. I would triple check to make sure you're getting the HD4000 and not the cut-down HD2500 though.

 

[IntelUser2000]

The w700 probably isn't a bad choice, an i3 with HD4k graphics is a pretty solid machine, even for light gaming. I would triple check to make sure you're getting the HD4000 and not the cut-down HD2500 though.

All mobile Core chips use HD 4000 graphics. It's only the Pentium and Celeron lines that don't.

That said...

Windows 8 is said to significantly improve responsiveness and 2D performance. While the CPU itself isn't much better than current Atoms, being on Windows 8 will make it lot better.

I'm just wondering if anyone has seen any benchmarks for this thing for older games, maybe something like freelancer or starcraft, that can be played quick and easy? I'm sure once the windows store starts to get actual game app submissions, there will be enough ipad-like mobile games to keep me happy.

I've no doubt you can do run the original Starcraft or Freelancer. I don't know about the latter but I personally tested Starcraft on my Atom UMPC. It runs on even slower Atom and worse graphics. There's no issue there, because its not doing anything 3D.

Actually I even ran Warcraft III DotA on minimum settings at 1024x600 resolution, and got like 15 fps. Clover Trail probably can get 30 fps. On WoW on minimum its what I call "bot-able" if you know what I mean.

 

[NostaSeronx]

Windows 8 is less CPU intensive while it pushes more load on the GPU.

 

[IntelUser2000]

Windows 8 is less CPU intensive while it pushes more load on the GPU.

Yes, which helps in 2D operations as lot more are GPU accelerated than before. That's how you get even ARM Windows 8 devices responsive.

 

[ShintaiDK]

Windows 8 is less CPU intensive while it pushes more load on the GPU.

Windows 8 got less GPU usage. Simply because Areo is removed and we are back to XP UI graphics.

 

[zlatan]

Hey guys, I'm new to this forum but Anandtech seems to have by far the most knowledgeable people in terms of raw tech info, so I found this would be the best place to ask this question

I'm in the market for a hybrid win8 tablet. At the moment, I'm looking very hard between the Surface RT, the Samsung Series 5 slate/Ativ Smart PC and the Samsung Series 7/Ativ Smart PC Pro or the Surface Pro at the high end...the price is right for the Acer W700 but I can't stand the plastic kickstand/port replicator + bluetooth keyboard combo.

To be honest, I'm leaning towards the Series 5 slate, with the RT and Pro models being outside options - I like the alure of full windows for when I want to use legacy software like games not available in the windows store or even media apps like VLC. I've heard some horror stories about the Clover Trail chips, but the early reviews for the W510, the only Clover Trail powered tablet reviewers have gotten to talk about yet, say performance was very good. However, no one has been willing to benchmark the thing yet.

Seeing as how this is based on basic Atom architecture, I have no expectations that the atom can handle something like battlefield 3. I'm just wondering if anyone has seen any benchmarks for this thing for older games, maybe something like freelancer or starcraft, that can be played quick and easy? I'm sure once the windows store starts to get actual game app submissions, there will be enough ipad-like mobile games to keep me happy.

That said, what do you guys think of the choices? Anyone know how performance of the Atom is vs. Tegra 3? And do you think I'll miss anything by going RT vs. x86? Or should I just suck up the extra weight and price and go for a pro model?

I have a new Win 8 devdriver for Cedar Trail. Clover Trail will have the same D3D driver.
StarCraft 2 is unplayable at any settings, also there are some graphics corruption in the game. Freelancer is actually run "fast", but the display driver crashes randomly. Also the water on the planets rendered incorrectly (fully white).
VLC is working, but it don't use the hardware acceleration. With MPC-HC it works for H.264 format. VC1 is not playable with acceleration, the frames are corrupted.

If you want good legacy experience, you may look for an AMD Hondo tablet. You will get a Brazos-like experience.
For the best Windows RT experience you may buy a Tegra 3 tablet.

 

[zlatan]

Windows 8 got less GPU usage. Simply because Areo is removed and we are back to XP UI graphics.

The UI is just an UI. You can have more acceleration with less eye candy. Windows 8 will actually accelerate almost "everything" with the GPU.

 

[LogOver]

I have a new Win 8 devdriver for Cedar Trail. Clover Trail will have the same D3D driver.
StarCraft 2 is unplayable at any settings, also there are some graphics corruption in the game. Freelancer is actually run "fast", but the display driver crashes randomly. Also the water on the planets rendered incorrectly (fully white).
VLC is working, but it don't use the hardware acceleration. With MPC-HC it works for H.264 format. VC1 is not playable with acceleration, the frames are corrupted.

If you want good legacy experience, you may look for an AMD Hondo tablet. You will get a Brazos-like experience.
For the best Windows RT experience you may buy a Tegra 3 tablet.

You're making to much assumption here:
1. Clover Trail will have the same D3D driver - no it wont.
2. For the best Windows RT experience you may buy a Tegra 3 tablet - do we have any benchmarks?

 

[LogOver]

Windows 8 will actually accelerate almost "everything" with the GPU.

What exactly will be "accelerated" by GPU in windows 8? What part of GPU will be used? D2D? D3D? Shaders?

 

[LogOver]

Damn I didn't even consider this! Any idea if there are any Hondo tablets in the pipeline for win8 launch?

No one itroduced tablets based on Hondo yet. Since Hondo has 4.5W TDP (vs. 1.7W for Clover Trail) it is still unclear if we can expect fanless design. Also it has very low cpu clock so I would not expect much performance advantage ove clover trail (if any).

 

[NTMBK]

No one itroduced tablets based on Hondo yet.

The Windpad 110W would beg to differ.

 

[podspi]

Windows 8 got less GPU usage. Simply because Areo is removed and we are back to XP UI graphics.

What exactly will be "accelerated" by GPU in windows 8? What part of GPU will be used? D2D? D3D? Shaders?

Style-wise it might be closer to XP, but that's it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desktop_Window_Manager

On Windows 8, DWM is now used at all times and cannot be disabled by any means. Unlike Vista and 7, Windows 8 also supports the use of the "Basic Display Adapter"; which uses software rendering and the CPU to render the interface instead of the graphics card—allowing its functionality to be used without compatible drivers, but not at the same level of performance as a normal graphics card. DWM on Windows 8 also adds support for stereoscopic 3D. Windows Server 2012, unlike previous Server versions, will also utilize DWM by default.[9]

 

[LogOver]

Windpad 110W

Windpad 110W is a good example how tablets should never be made. It's bulky, noisy with pity battery life. And it's not a Hondo-based.

 

[LogOver]

Style-wise it might be closer to XP, but that's it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desktop_Window_Manager

So your's "everything" is basically UI? Even very weak Atom's 3150 adapter has enough power to accelerate UI.

 

[zlatan]

1. Clover Trail will have the same D3D driver - no it wont.

Than why are they said me that I can work for Cedar Trail, because Clover Trail has the same hardware and software? Also why Imagination want to write two different driver for the same IP (PowerVR SGX545)?

2. For the best Windows RT experience you may buy a Tegra 3 tablet - do we have any benchmarks?

I can't tell you the actual performance. But I have NV/TI/Qualcomm devplatform for Windows RT, and Tegra 3 has the best software support for Windows RT. Sure, there are some minor problems, but the graphics driver is far better than what Qualcomm and Imagination provide.
This is also true for AMD on Windows 8. They provided fully working driver two months ago for Hondo.

Based on my experience I don't recommend to buy any Windows tablet with PowerVR (Clover Trail/OMAP) and Adreno (Qualcomm) graphics. They D3D drivers really sucks. However, Qualcomm trying to get better support. They already working some DirectX extension for Adreno. I respect them for this, but they need time to provide good support.
Everybody thinks that it is so easy to create support for WDDM, but it's fucking hard. Also PowerVR and Adreno uses a fundamentally different hardware pipeline for rendering compared to any PC GPU (Radeon, Geforce, HDGraphics). This is the main reason why Microsoft offer them the opportunity to create specific extensions. DirectX doesn't provide any direct support for traditional and specific tile-based architectures. The PowerVR uses a very different hardware implementation in the terms of pipelines and rasterization from the logical stages that the DirectX API exposes.

 

[happysmiles]

you'd expect a company with so much R&D and profits to invest in some drivers.