Intel closes in Costa Rica, moves to China.

[MongGrel]

China has been the old go to for many years now for manufacturing, seriously, no ones getting this yet.

I went up to my dad's funeral and drove by many areas near where I went through my toolmaker apprenticeship 30 years ago.

Anything that used to be there that was major manufacturing, and it was a major area at the time, had been shut down and shuttered, or bulldozed.

 

[blackened23]

Perhaps this is the beginning of competition for Intel as they transfer their technological secrets (willingly or not) to Chinese processor manufacturers. If Intel didn't learn from the experiences of other industries like high speed rail and alternative energy companies who went from doing business in China to being priced out of markets due to competition from Chinese made products using technology they gave them, it's their own fault.

If you're referring to cloning chips or reserve engineering them, this basically isn't possible with modern silicon. It was in the 90s, but not any longer; remember it was a common practice to "reverse engineer" CPUs back then and sell them as your own. That's precisely what AMD, Cyrix, and IBM did for YEARS AND YEARS with intel CPUs, but there reached a point to where it became a practical impossibility. It just isn't possible to reverse engineer CPU silicon these days due to complexity, the process would be so time consuming that by the time it happens (5+ years) it wouldn't be worth while. Back in the 486 years it took Cyrix and AMD years to reserve engineer those chips. Now? It's basically not possible. This is the 486 we're talking about. Years to reverse engineer and clone a chip that it practically nothing compared to what we have now. Both AMD and Cyrix cloned intel chips back in the day and sold them under their respective brands. The only problem of course was being late to market, but they still were able to sell a significant volume of chips. When the Pentium P54C hit, the cloning stopped. AMD made their K5 and Cyrix made the 6x86.

Besides which, even if the scenario you mention is true, I'd like to think that Intel aren't idiots. I'm sure there are those in this thread who insist they are idiots, despite them doing well financially. Which is funny. But anyway, they know the risks. It's not like they're entering anything blind sided here, the fact of the matter is that ALL silicon companies are in China/TW. There's just no escaping it, because it's the cheapest place to produce. No, intel isn't impervious. No, Intel isn't invincible. They could well make a stupid mistake down the road that costs them heavily. BUT, I do not think this is one of them. Far from it. As I said, they know the risks better than you do, i'd say. On the grand scale of things, this is nothing.

Now China could steal trade and financial secrets, but there isn't a situation to where they could clone chips. That just can't happen given the complexity of modern silicon. 30 years ago it was possible. Not so much anymore.

 

[VirtualLarry]

If you're referring to cloning chips or reserve engineering them, this basically isn't possible with modern silicon. It was in the 90s, but not any longer; remember it was a common practice to "reverse engineer" CPUs back then and sell them as your own. That's precisely what AMD, Cyrix, and IBM did for YEARS AND YEARS with intel CPUs, but there reached a point to where it became a practical impossibility. It just isn't possible to reverse engineer CPU silicon these days due to complexity, the process would be so time consuming that by the time it happens (5+ years) it wouldn't be worth while. Back in the 486 years it took Cyrix and AMD years to reserve engineer those chips. Now? It's basically not possible. This is the 486 we're talking about. Years to reverse engineer and clone a chip that it practically nothing compared to what we have now. Both AMD and Cyrix cloned intel chips back in the day and sold them under their respective brands. The only problem of course was being late to market, but they still were able to sell a significant volume of chips. When the Pentium P54C hit, the cloning stopped. AMD made their K5 and Cyrix made the 6x86.

AMD did NOT reverse-engineer Intel's chips. They were a second-source fab, fabbing Intel's designs. I forget what happened, as far as when AMD could no longer fab and sell Intel's designs, but it did not take "many years" to reverse-engineer and build a 486 chip, AMD already had their own designs ready. CPUs weren't that complicated back in the 486 days.

 

[blackened23]

You are, quite simply, wrong. You are WAY off. It is true that AMD had a contract to produce intel 8086 and 8088 chips. That part is true; in fact IBM produced computers with AM8086 / 8088 CPUs. With the 8086 and 8088, intel provided them with the design for the chips. This was the first PC CPU for the IBM PC.

That contract ended in 1986, and that is when AMD and Cyrix, DID, in fact, clone intel chips. At that point, both AMD and Cyrix were taking derivatives of intel's microcode and meticulously reverse engineering their CPUs to create clone chips. In 1994, the supreme court put that to an end if I recall correctly. That's why AMD abruptly stopped cloning chips with the K5.

I can't remember if AMD started clone chips with the 80286 or the 80386, but they did in fact reverse engineer intel chips and it took years of legal wrangling from intel to put it to an end. And intel did have a significant lead to market with their 486, although AMD and cyrix later followed with their clone chips.

 

[ninaholic37]

^^ Nice twist there on the Wikipedia article 😛

In February 1982, AMD signed a contract with Intel, becoming a licensed second-source manufacturer of 8086 and 8088 processors. IBM wanted to use the Intel 8088 in its IBM PC, but IBM's policy at the time was to require at least two sources for its chips. AMD later produced the Am286 under the same arrangement, but Intel canceled the agreement in 1986 and refused to convey technical details of the i386 part. AMD challenged Intel's decision to cancel the agreement and won in arbitration, but Intel disputed this decision. A long legal dispute followed, ending in 1994 when the Supreme Court of California sided with AMD. Subsequent legal disputes centered on whether AMD had legal rights to use derivatives of Intel's microcode. In the face of uncertainty, AMD was forced to develop clean room designed versions of Intel code.

But I guess we're getting pretty off-topic now.

 

[iluvdeal]

If you're referring to cloning chips or reserve engineering them, this basically isn't possible with modern silicon.

I was referring to Intel's entire manufacturing process. All the efficiencies in fabrication Intel has spent decades mastering, China can learn from Intel. Present day it may seem inconceivable any Chinese company could ever compete with Intel, check back in 20 years though. China favors domestic companies over foreign, that should be no surprise. So in that sense it's not a free market as domestic companies face less hurdles. Does the Chinese government have an interest in a Chinese company being the leader in the the brains that power computers or are they content with an American company dominating in that area and powering their own servers? I'd guess the former is one of their long term goals.

 

[pw257008]

Made in the US is not exactly a quality marker. And the success and rising of a nation seems to be what the issue evolves around. Good thing companies look beyond this.

Oh, I figured it was a reference to Nikes being way too small

 

[pw257008]

I was referring to Intel's entire manufacturing process. All the efficiencies in fabrication Intel has spent decades mastering, China can learn from Intel. Present day it may seem inconceivable any Chinese company could ever compete with Intel, check back in 20 years though. China favors domestic companies over foreign, that should be no surprise. So in that sense it's not a free market as domestic companies face less hurdles. Does the Chinese government have an interest in a Chinese company being the leader in the the brains that power computers or are they content with an American company dominating in that area and powering their own servers? I'd guess the former is one of their long term goals.

:thumbsup: Seriously. And it's not like IP sharing requirements are new. Japan had them in the 60s for some American companies who wanted to sell in China.

 

[VirtualLarry]

You are, quite simply, wrong. You are WAY off. It is true that AMD had a contract to produce intel 8086 and 8088 chips. That part is true; in fact IBM produced computers with AM8086 / 8088 CPUs. With the 8086 and 8088, intel provided them with the design for the chips. This was the first PC CPU for the IBM PC.

That contract ended in 1986, and that is when AMD and Cyrix, DID, in fact, clone intel chips. At that point, both AMD and Cyrix were taking derivatives of intel's microcode and meticulously reverse engineering their CPUs to create clone chips. In 1994, the supreme court put that to an end if I recall correctly. That's why AMD abruptly stopped cloning chips with the K5.

AMD produced (mfg'ed) Intel designed CPUs, up until the 486-DX33. At that point, AMD lost their license to mfg Intel's designs, and introduced their own designs. The K5 was a NexGen design, not an AMD design. AMD bought NexGen.

 

[MongGrel]

AMD did NOT reverse-engineer Intel's chips. They were a second-source fab, fabbing Intel's designs. I forget what happened, as far as when AMD could no longer fab and sell Intel's designs, but it did not take "many years" to reverse-engineer and build a 486 chip, AMD already had their own designs ready. CPUs weren't that complicated back in the 486 days.

*[absurd]* *cough*

No profanity in the tech forums
-ViRGE

 

[blackened23]

AMD produced (mfg'ed) Intel designed CPUs, up until the 486-DX33. At that point, AMD lost their license to mfg Intel's designs, and introduced their own designs. The K5 was a NexGen design, not an AMD design. AMD bought NexGen.

No matter how many times you keep saying it, it isn't true. AMD and Cyrix both reverse engineered intel chips to clone them. They didn't have a license since 1986. The 486 was obviously released well afterwards. But, if you want to believe in a twisted reality with AMD being the hero, have at it.

 

[VirtualLarry]

I remember quite well that the AM386 was identical to the Intel i386, and around the 486DX-33 era was when AMD was forced to come up with their own designs, and no longer could produce Intel's. I remember it quite well, I was there at the time.

 

[rtsurfer]

I remember quite well that the AM386 was identical to the Intel i386, and around the 486DX-33 era was when AMD was forced to come up with their own designs, and no longer could produce Intel's. I remember it quite well, I was there at the time.

blackened23 is right.

Although I do not like him bringing in the the Hero/Bad Guy angle in between.

Anyways,

Here is an Interesting read on AMD's history
http://arstechnica.com/business/2013/04/the-rise-and-fall-of-amd-how-an-underdog-stuck-it-to-intel/

The part you guys are fighting about is at the bottom on Page 1 till top of Page 2.

And here is Part 2 of the article if you wish to read it

http://arstechnica.com/business/201...e-top-of-the-mountain-to-the-deepest-valleys/

 

[videogames101]

idk, process tech isn't something you can just learn by looking at the machines or the organization or even the strategy, there are literally like a handful of companies even capable developing modern process tech and that list isn't growing

 

[bononos]

AMD produced (mfg'ed) Intel designed CPUs, up until the 486-DX33. At that point, AMD lost their license to mfg Intel's designs, and introduced their own designs. The K5 was a NexGen design, not an AMD design. AMD bought NexGen.

I'm quite certain that the K5 was an AMD design. The k stood for kypton or kryptonite. The K6 was a Nexgen design.

 

[VirtualLarry]

I'm quite certain that the K5 was an AMD design. The k stood for kypton or kryptonite. The K6 was a Nexgen design.

I had always thought that the K5 was just AMD's fabbing (and renaming) of the Nx586. Maybe I'm wrong about that.

If it was indeed a homegrown post-486 design, then I'm really curious about the architecture and pipelines.

 

[USER8000]

The K5 was the first proper AMD design. The original K6 which was derived from the K5 was a bit of a disaster and was canned,so the CEO at the time bought NexGen so AMD could use their latest CPU design,which was revealed as the K6.

 

[VirtualLarry]

The K5 was the first proper AMD design. The original K6 which was derived from the K5 was a bit of a disaster and was canned,so the CEO at the time bought NexGen so AMD could use their latest CPU design,which was revealed as the K6.

http://datasheets.chipdb.org/upload/Unzlbunzl/AMD/18522F AMD-K5.pdf

four-issue RISC core. Could have sworn the RISC core was a NexGen design.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMD_K5

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NexGen

The company was best known for the unique implementation of the x86 architecture in its processors. NexGen's CPUs were designed very differently from other processors based on the x86 instruction set at the time: the processor would translate code designed to run on the traditionally CISC-based x86 architecture to run on the chip's internal RISC architecture.

Ok, that explains perhaps why I confused the two. BOTH the NexGen Nx586 and the AMD K5 used a RISC core. Since AMD bought NexGen around the same time, I thought that AMD's K5 was derived from the Nx586, but apparently not.