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Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,767
6,770
126
Originally posted by: jjones
On a lighter note, they did admit that at the core political liberalism is the fear of individual responsibility. ;)
Hehe, the fear of individual responsibility is not a liberal fear. That is just another conservative fear, the fear of the lack of personal responsibility. You just have to look at how you are, or used to be, those of you who have grown up passed this kind of thing. You have to understand what we fear, it's punishment, humiliation, and loneliness, the withholding of love. This is how we were trained and how we came to have Swedish syndrome. Conservatives are good people who are good out of fear. God's punishment. the law, social ostracism, etc. Without this personal responsibility, personal terror, they fear chaos, the unleashing of their own repressed feelings that were stuffed at rage stage as children. For them to feel is the end of the world. All hell will break loose. No, only very bad memories.

And yeah, i hate how Berkeley lets in all those slackers. What I was on record as having said, Corn, could have been there as a joke, maybe my way of saying Berkeley's a right winged place, at least to me, HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM? Hehe.
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C: "In Moonie's perfect world, everyone would be lobotomized."
We're 98% there now. Of course you wouldn't notice. :D
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A: "Tell us about your pain Moonbeam. I'm curious what torture and sufferring you've been through to decide you want to share it with our forum...
------------------------------
Huh? What are you talking about. What is your question. I stated a fact, you want detail? Why? What would that mean to you?




 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
Originally posted by: alchemize
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
How *not* suprising that you bought it hook, line and sinker. Did you graduate from Berkeley? Were you that naked guy that walked around on campus?
--------------------------------
How not surprising that in your haste to get off a shot you forgot to think. I bought nothing hook line and sinker. I've know that elemental crap for years and years and years, and am currently several light years down the road. Sorry, but now you can have fun with this.

I'm on record as having stated I was expelled from Berkeley because I was too liberal. And buy the way, you could have gathered, had you had your thinking cap on, that you could never become as liberal as I without tremendous pain. That should have clued you in to the possibility you would come off to me only as a pin shy of a pin prick.

Tell us about your pain Moonbeam. I'm curious what torture and sufferring you've been through to decide you want to share it with our forum...

A liberal would not ask that question... A Liberal would understand the pain... A Conservative, however, well.... you can see the point...

 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Thank you Berkeley. So what we've always known is true. Conservatives are self-absorbed, spunge off their big government for a contract for thier wares, while maintaining the guise of small governmnet, merit and individualism. They are frauds esp the neocons. Now a liberal will look like a bad guy once again when he has to raise taxes to pay for Bushes irresponsibity. The republican party has been a joke since RR.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: sMiLeYz
Originally posted by: alchemize
Berkeley, the unbiased centrist source :)

Than again, Berkeley is a world renowned research institute that has no partisan agenda.

If it makes you feel better they say bad things about liberals too.
Give me a break. Bezerkly is even reviled by most Californian Democrats as being on the Lunatc Fringe. In Ca it is known as the Peoples Republic of Bezerkly.

This is what someone says when they don't understand the difference between the scientific method and FOX news comming to a conclusion. Thier both just as credible right?
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
3
0
Originally posted by: Corn
How *not* suprising that you bought it hook, line and sinker.

Moonie does have a tendency for one dimensional thinking. Lately he's taken to repeating as fact lies he's heard on late night talk radio. Critical thinking not required. As far as Moonie is concerned, all humanity really needs is more "yes men".
Hell Dubya is the epitome of a Yes Man!
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Here probably the concise differnece I've found without almost calling people Nazis or Commis: They don't seem to be all that differnent only matter where one lies on the spectrum.

In defining the differences between liberalism and conservatism, there are five main political spectrums to consider. These are:

1. Individualism vs. Altruism
2. Anarchy vs. Organization
3. Democracy vs. Constitutionalism
4. Equality vs. Merit
5. Competition vs. Cooperation

Let's define each spectrum, and see where liberalism and conservatism reside on them.

Spectrum One: Individualism vs. Altruism

An individualist (in this case) is someone who is 100 percent self-interested. An altruist is someone who is 100 percent interested in the well-being of others. Of course, there is a spectrum between these two positions.

There are many ways to believe in pure individualism and still allow that individuals can cooperate in the sort of interdependent, specialized society that makes us all richer. Libertarians and extreme conservatives believe in the "invisible hand," a term coined by 18th century economist Adam Smith. In his desire to get rich, a baker bakes bread for hundreds of people, and in this he is led by an "invisible hand" to feed society, even though such altruistic notions were not part of his original intention. When individuals are allowed to seek their own rewards, the argument goes, the common interest naturally takes care of itself. No central authority needs to consciously promote the common interest.

But liberals can be pure individualists too. They point out that the "invisible hand" is an important concept, but it hardly works in all cases. The criminal seeks his own self-interest, yet causes harm to society. A polluter finds it cheaper to dump pollution than to treat it, and this self-interest is equally harmful to society. Because it is in the self-interest of individuals to live in crime-free and pollution-free societies, they have a need to defend the common interest. In short, there are selfish reasons to promote the common good through government.

A good many other people, however, believe that humans are not 100 percent individualists; rather, they naturally possess a degree of genuine altruism as well. Perhaps the clearest example is romantic and sexual behavior, which is genetic (hormonal). The resulting social union of man and woman is responsible for the creation of new individuals in the first place. And nature has given us maternal and paternal instincts which cause us to sacrifice unselfishly for the survival of our children. This school of thought claims there are also non-family examples of natural altruism as well. These arguments will be addressed in a later section.

Spectrum Two: Anarchy vs. Organization

There are many definitions of anarchy, but for our purposes here let us define it as no laws and no governments. Competition is the main characteristic of such a society. It's survival of the fittest -- kill or be killed.

This is not to say that order and cooperative groups do not arise in anarchy; after all, order and cooperative groups seems to have arisen spontaneously in the anarchy of nature. It's just that they are not centrally planned. (Or appear to be.)

In a perfectly organized society, a central organization plans every aspect of life. Cooperation and coordination are its primary traits. Most people entertain the mistaken belief that the centralized government needed to run such a society can only be a dictatorship, but this is hardly true. A highly centralized government can also be democratic, as proven by the social democracies of Northern Europe. (If this is difficult to picture, then imagine a country where people vote on literally everything, from the price of tea to the safety features of automobiles. The government then puts these ballot results into action.) Nor does the central organization have to be a government; theoretically, it could also be a giant business monopoly (like "The Company" in the movie Aliens.)

Anarchy is the ultimate in individual freedom (meaning individuals can do anything they want); a democratically organized society is the ultimate in group freedom (meaning that the majority can do anything it wants). However, most people desire neither of these extremes, and prefer their government to be somewhere in the middle of this spectrum.

A common philosophy of moderation is this: government should support and promote those forms of individual freedom and self-interest which advance the common interest, and prevent those forms of individual freedom and self-interest which harm it.

Although this philosophy is widespread, few people agree on how it should be implemented. Conservatives, for instance, believe that government should allow the invisible hand to work on the free market -- an example of self-interest that advances the common interest. And they believe that government should prevent and punish crime -- an example of self-interest that harms the common interest.

Liberals, on the other hand, believe that government can actively promote, not just allow, the free market. For example, the government can build roads, wire the countryside for electricity and phone service, launch communication satellites and provide economic statistics, all of which allow the free market to flourish. (Conservatives tend to believe these should privatized, but whether this is even possible is one of the controversies we shall explore later on.)

And liberals believe that the government should be more active in preventing harmful self-interest. For example, they believe government should regulate corporate polluters. Conservatives oppose this, but it is inconsistent with the very philosophy that generates their position on crime.

Spectrum Three: Democracy vs. Constitutionalism

Democracy has been with us for thousands of years, but most of these experiments have ended badly. It was the rise of individual rights in the 18th century, as protected by the Constitution, that has distinguished the United States and made it such a successful democracy. (At least so far!)

The Founding Fathers also knew that democracy only works if the voters are educated. But in the 18th century, the overwhelming majority of Americans were illiterate. So they created a representative democracy, or a republic, in which laws were voted upon not by the people, but their elected representatives. For this reason, the United States is technically not a pure democracy, but a constitutional republic -- a fact which conservatives are always quick to point out.

Many of the Founders advocated a government where representative democracy, the constitution and the courts form a system of checks and balances. The entire rational behind such a triangular system is to prevent too much power from accumulating in any one segment of society. We all know the old adage: power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Liberals acknowledge the value of all three corners of this system. If anything, they would argue that democracy could be strengthened, because mass education has largely wiped out illiteracy in America. Therefore, more direct forms of democracy are possible, like state or even national referendums. More radical liberals advocate replacing our representative democracy with a direct one -- but there is a real question of whether or not the people are that educated.

Conservatives, on the other hand, argue that the constitution should be strengthened, and democracy proportionately weakened. Why? Because they perceive that the Constitution gives them the individual freedom to act however they want, as long as they don't violate other people's individual freedom. Democracy, on the other hand, often tells individuals what to do. If a law you voted against is passed, your personal will is denied. In other words, democracy forces individuals in the minority to act in the interest of the majority, which is why conservatives tend to oppose it. Libertarians take this opposition to an extreme.

Spectrum Four: Equality vs. Merit

The debate between equality vs. merit is one of the oldest in our society. When merit is rewarded, competition becomes supreme, the fittest survive, and people get what they deserve. When rewards are given out equally, people become more pleasant and civilized to each other, but incentive falls, since trying harder doesn't get you anywhere.

For classification purposes, there are three types of societies: egalitarian, moderated meritocracy, and unrestricted meritocracy.

Socialism is the best example of an egalitarian society. When Marx wrote "From each according to his ability, and to each according to his needs," he was acknowledging that people are certainly born with different abilities, but they should be rewarded equally.

Libertarianism is the closest example of an unrestricted meritocracy, where there are the fewest constraints on the fittest reaching the top. Unfortunately, we have no historical examples of such a government.

Conservatism and liberalism are examples of moderated meritocracies. In a moderated meritocracy, the most successful continue to be rewarded the most, but a percentage of their power or income is redistributed back to the middle and lower class. Liberals, who lean more towards equality, believe the degree of redistribution should be rather high; conservatives, who lean more towards merit, believe that it should be rather low. In our economy, a progressive tax code achieves this effect, and liberals and conservatives argue over how steep its progressivity should be.

Spectrum Five: Competition vs. Cooperation

In general, the right favors competition; the left, cooperation.

The advantage of competition is that it drives humans to their maximum potential and maximum performance. The disadvantage of competition is that it can be destructive.

The advantage of cooperation is that we are all stronger together than we are separately. The disadvantage of cooperation is that it diminishes incentive, since trying harder than the next person will not achieve anything.

There is a complex interplay between competition and cooperation in human society (and, indeed, in all animal life). It is possible to engineer society to emphasize competition (by emphasizing the individual) or to emphasize cooperation (by emphasizing society). Finding the right mix requires an accurate understanding of the roots of competition and cooperation, as well as a knowledge of game theory (which is the science of competition and cooperation).

.
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
3
0
Originally posted by: Corn
Hell Dubya is the epitome of a Yes Man!

That he is.....by and far he's a better Democrat than Clinton was a Republican. ;)
Hmmm... LOL:D Clinton was to Moderate and too popular with the Ladies to be a good Republican.
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
Originally posted by: Zebo
Here probably the concise differnece I've found without almost calling people Nazis or Commis: They don't seem to be all that differnent only matter where one lies on the spectrum.

In defining the differences between liberalism and conservatism, there are five main political spectrums to consider. These are:

1. Individualism vs. Altruism
2. Anarchy vs. Organization
3. Democracy vs. Constitutionalism
4. Equality vs. Merit
5. Competition vs. Cooperation

Let's define each spectrum, and see where liberalism and conservatism reside on them.

[ deleted for space ]

Great article, Zebo - fascinating read. Thanks for posting it.

It's a shame all you wonderful conservatives couldn't find something useful to contribute instead of your predictable, spiteful attacks (with maybe one or two exceptions). You are a shameful bunch, incapable of considering anything that even hints you may have areas for improvement. On a postive note, you did a great job of demonstrating the article's first two points: agression and dogmatism.
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
3
0
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Originally posted by: Zebo
Here probably the concise differnece I've found without almost calling people Nazis or Commis: They don't seem to be all that differnent only matter where one lies on the spectrum.

In defining the differences between liberalism and conservatism, there are five main political spectrums to consider. These are:

1. Individualism vs. Altruism
2. Anarchy vs. Organization
3. Democracy vs. Constitutionalism
4. Equality vs. Merit
5. Competition vs. Cooperation

Let's define each spectrum, and see where liberalism and conservatism reside on them.

[ deleted for space ]

Great article, Zebo - fascinating read. Thanks for posting it.

It's a shame all you wonderful conservatives couldn't find something useful to contribute instead of your predictable, spiteful attacks (with maybe one or two exceptions). You are a shameful bunch, incapable of considering anything that even hints you may have areas for improvement. On a postive note, you did a great job of demonstrating the article's first two points: agression and dogmatism.
And you Liberals prove the same thing every day here in this Forum. Yo guys are as pathetic as the Utlra Conservatives... out on the Lunatic Fringe with no idea how the majority of Americans feel!

 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Originally posted by: Zebo
Here probably the concise differnece I've found without almost calling people Nazis or Commis: They don't seem to be all that differnent only matter where one lies on the spectrum.

In defining the differences between liberalism and conservatism, there are five main political spectrums to consider. These are:

1. Individualism vs. Altruism
2. Anarchy vs. Organization
3. Democracy vs. Constitutionalism
4. Equality vs. Merit
5. Competition vs. Cooperation

Let's define each spectrum, and see where liberalism and conservatism reside on them.

[ deleted for space ]

Great article, Zebo - fascinating read. Thanks for posting it.

It's a shame all you wonderful conservatives couldn't find something useful to contribute instead of your predictable, spiteful attacks (with maybe one or two exceptions). You are a shameful bunch, incapable of considering anything that even hints you may have areas for improvement. On a postive note, you did a great job of demonstrating the article's first two points: agression and dogmatism.
And you Liberals prove the same thing every day here in this Forum. Yo guys are as pathetic as the Utlra Conservatives... out on the Lunatic Fringe with no idea how the majority of Americans feel!

Just wait, the guy that wrote this article is planning on doing a similar one on liberals. Should be interesting.
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
Originally posted by: HombrePequeno
rolleye.gif


Why don't I just quote some of Ann Coulter's book and say that all liberals are traitors. That'd be about as unbiased.
How so? What, specifically, do you find biased? More importantly, what is your basis for considering it biased other than your disagreement with its conclusions?

You're welcome to post some of Coulter's hate-filled spews. I'm sure to whatever extent she uses specific information -- as opposed to empty name-calling -- there will be dozens of people who will dissect her nonsense, point by point. The "liberals" here don't seem to have nearly as much problem presenting their positions and supporting them with coherent arguments rather than just attacking the messenger and dodging the issues.
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
Originally posted by: charrison
Just wait, the guy that wrote this article is planning on doing a similar one on liberals. Should be interesting.
I agree. I look forward to reading it.

 

Orsorum

Lifer
Dec 26, 2001
27,631
5
81
1.2 Why is tradition a source of greater wisdom?

It is a network of commonly accepted attitudes, beliefs and practices that evolves through strengthening of things that work and rejection of things that lead to conflict and failure. It therefore comprises a collection of habits that have proved useful in a huge variety of practical affairs, and a comprehensive and generally coherent point of view that reflects very extensive experience and thought. Through it we know subtle and fundamental features of the world that would otherwise escape us, and our understanding of those things takes on concrete and usable form.

The usual alternative to reliance on tradition is reliance on theory. Taking theory literally can be costly because it achieves clarity by ignoring things that are difficult to articulate. Such things can be important; the reason politics and morals are learned mostly by experience and imitation is that most of what we need to know about them consists in habits, attitudes and implicit presumptions that we couldn't begin to put into words. There is no means other than tradition to accumulate, conserve and hand on such things.

Other considerations also support the wisdom of relying on tradition, if not specifically of tradition itself. For example, tradition typically exists as the common property of a community whose members are raised in it. Accordingly, it normally unites more than divides, and is far more likely than theory to facilitate life in common.

From your source, CkG. That's all I needed to read before I started laughing. Thanks for the jokes!
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Great article, Zebo - fascinating read. Thanks for posting it.

It's a shame all you wonderful conservatives couldn't find something useful to contribute instead of your predictable, spiteful attacks (with maybe one or two exceptions). You are a shameful bunch, incapable of considering anything that even hints you may have areas for improvement. On a postive note, you did a great job of demonstrating the article's first two points: agression and dogmatism.
And you Liberals prove the same thing every day here in this Forum. Yo guys are as pathetic as the Utlra Conservatives... out on the Lunatic Fringe with no idea how the majority of Americans feel!
Blah, blah, blah. Do you have anything to back this up, or is it just more noise, blind knee-jerk bashing of everyone and everything you disagree with?

 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: Orsorum
1.2 Why is tradition a source of greater wisdom?

It is a network of commonly accepted attitudes, beliefs and practices that evolves through strengthening of things that work and rejection of things that lead to conflict and failure. It therefore comprises a collection of habits that have proved useful in a huge variety of practical affairs, and a comprehensive and generally coherent point of view that reflects very extensive experience and thought. Through it we know subtle and fundamental features of the world that would otherwise escape us, and our understanding of those things takes on concrete and usable form.

The usual alternative to reliance on tradition is reliance on theory. Taking theory literally can be costly because it achieves clarity by ignoring things that are difficult to articulate. Such things can be important; the reason politics and morals are learned mostly by experience and imitation is that most of what we need to know about them consists in habits, attitudes and implicit presumptions that we couldn't begin to put into words. There is no means other than tradition to accumulate, conserve and hand on such things.

Other considerations also support the wisdom of relying on tradition, if not specifically of tradition itself. For example, tradition typically exists as the common property of a community whose members are raised in it. Accordingly, it normally unites more than divides, and is far more likely than theory to facilitate life in common.

From your source, CkG. That's all I needed to read before I started laughing. Thanks for the jokes!

So are you saying that theory is better than something that is known?
If not, what is so funny about it?

CkG
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
""Hell Dubya is the epitome of a Yes Man!""

Why do people say this? If anything he is in total control of his whitehouse and I don't think "stupid" at all like so many seem to. Sure he's not "cultured" and not pretensious but to think he's dumb is just stupid.
 

jjones

Lifer
Oct 9, 2001
15,424
2
0
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: jjones
On a lighter note, they did admit that at the core political liberalism is the fear of individual responsibility. ;)
Hehe, the fear of individual responsibility is not a liberal fear. That is just another conservative fear, the fear of the lack of personal responsibility. You just have to look at how you are, or used to be, those of you who have grown up passed this kind of thing. You have to understand what we fear, it's punishment, humiliation, and loneliness, the withholding of love. This is how we were trained and how we came to have Swedish syndrome. Conservatives are good people who are good out of fear. God's punishment. the law, social ostracism, etc. Without this personal responsibility, personal terror, they fear chaos, the unleashing of their own repressed feelings that were stuffed at rage stage as children. For them to feel is the end of the world. All hell will break loose. No, only very bad memories.
There you go, proving my point again. ;)

Liberals fear punishment so they seek to water down societal rules; they fear humiliation and wrap themselves in a blanket of moral ambiguity; they fear loneliness and assure themselves of the brotherhood of man. Liberals are fearful people that are afraid to see that the only thing sneaking up on them is their shadow.

Not sure about the Swedish syndrome unless that's our love/hate relationship with chocolate. ;) :D

Edit: Oops, my bad. That Swedish syndrome thing must be our penchant for chasing blond, buxom women. :D

 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,767
6,770
126
Nice post there Zebo. As to your comment on Bush I see him as so infected with:

* Fear and aggression
* Dogmatism and intolerance of ambiguity
* Uncertainty avoidance
* Need for cognitive closure
* Terror management

That his decisions are clean and crisp, lacking only correctness in the main. He is supremely confident of his capacity to make snap judgments without regard to consequence.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,767
6,770
126
OOOOPs JJ I meant the Stockholm Syndrome and of course my post looked like proving your point. Mine isn't visible to you. It's blocked by fear of pain.
 

jjones

Lifer
Oct 9, 2001
15,424
2
0
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
OOOOPs JJ I meant the Stockholm Syndrome and of course my post looked like proving your point. Mine isn't visible to you. It's blocked by fear of pain.
Fear of pain?!? Bring it on!!! :p

 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
3
0
Originally posted by: Zebo
""Hell Dubya is the epitome of a Yes Man!""

Why do people say this? If anything he is in total control of his whitehouse and I don't think "stupid" at all like so many seem to. Sure he's not "cultured" and not pretensious but to think he's dumb is just stupid.
Why do I think he is a yes man? Well for starters he filled his cabinet up with Oil Men abd Neo Cons.. Those who are the back bone of the Republican Hierchy. Secondly he let himself get drawn into the Iraq War based on false information (whether he knew or not it was false info has yet to be determined)

Frankly he hasn't demonstrated to me that he is a worthwhile leader.Sure he came across strong after 9/11 but I believe that anyone in his position would have come across as the same considering the circumstances and the pool of talented spin doktors at any leaders disposal!
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Nice post there Zebo. As to your comment on Bush I see him as so infected with:

* Fear and aggression
* Dogmatism and intolerance of ambiguity
* Uncertainty avoidance
* Need for cognitive closure
* Terror management

That his decisions are clean and crisp, lacking only correctness in the main. He is supremely confident of his capacity to make snap judgments without regard to consequence.

Well YEAAA. Any uber rich and powerful child, who never had to work and comprimise with others and has a dependancy problem will be like this.. But this does'nt make his leadership dumb or a fly by the seat of his pants opperation.. It's CALCULATED selfishness in the exteme, a veiw of superior genetics, a destiny for some to rule and manage capital while other must work it for them. But the rules should'nt be impeded in anyway because after all in a capitalist society they are the demigods destiny has chosen to rule.. JMO of course.

I imangine he sees himself as King George instead of the president.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,767
6,770
126
Originally posted by: jjones
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
OOOOPs JJ I meant the Stockholm Syndrome and of course my post looked like proving your point. Mine isn't visible to you. It's blocked by fear of pain.
Fear of pain?!? Bring it on!!! :p
You want pain, feel what you really feel.

 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: jjones
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
OOOOPs JJ I meant the Stockholm Syndrome and of course my post looked like proving your point. Mine isn't visible to you. It's blocked by fear of pain.
Fear of pain?!? Bring it on!!! :p
You want pain, feel what you really feel.

Hehea