Insight as to why Francenow dislikes Poland.

[BaliBabyDoc]

your knowledge of history is pathetic
read this about alexander dubcek.
lech walensa would have ended up like dubcek if it wasn't for Reagan.

Curiously, I read your link . . . expecting something resembling pertinent information. Not only does dubcek bear little resemblance to Walesa . . . it doesn't even mention Poland. And of course the Poland link . . . doesn't even mention the US or Reagan as significant factors in the fall of Communism. In fact, it is substantially comparable to the link I provided.

Let me see if I can follow your tangential thoughts . . . read this about Bush. George Bush would have ended up like . . . himself . . . if it wasn't for Jesus.

 

[heartsurgeon]

Over the following years the Jaruzelski regime became even more unpopular as economic conditions worsened. Under Mikhail Gorbachev the Soviet Union was no longer prepared to use military force to keep communist parties in satellite states in power. The Polish Communist party was finally forced to again negotiate with Walesa and his colleagues in a revived Solidarity movement. The result was the holding of parliamentary elections in September 1989 which led to the establishment of a Solidarity led government.

for those of you that were in diapers back then..Reagan was President from 1981-1989. the reason the Soviets were "no longer prepared to use military force to keep communist parties in satellite states in power" was because the soviets were broke, and Reagan and the "star Wars" initiative is why they went broke...

Alexander Dubcek is an example of what would have happened to lech walesa had the Soviets not been pushed to the brink of economic collapse..they roled in the tanks (there were massive demonstrations against this occupation all over europe, i know, because i was there when it happened), crushed the anti-communist forces, and in a couple of weeks, the europeans sat back down on their hands and acted like nothing had happened.

I read your link . . . expecting something resembling pertinent information. Not only does dubcek bear little resemblance to Walesa . . . it doesn't even mention Poland

i forgot you spend all day with kids...i'll try to keep the references more "concrete" so you can handle them better.

 

[B00ne]

Bali: there is no use arguing with some kind of ppl. Certain ppl are notorious in crediting America being responsible for everything,being first, best, whatever as long as it is something are positive - even if untrue or skewed it pampers their insecure nationalistic souls. When it is something negative others are responsible or prevented and mislead America to do the right thing because America is always right and the ultimate true good in this world. Gods own country so to speak

 

[Bitdog]

I always thought Regan blundered into the credit of the communism collaps.
Regan actually thought that STAR WARS would work, dispite the fact that all the edcucated people told him it wouldn't.
Then Regan pored in massive money & ended up with very little in return.
He also pored massive money into the drug war, and we all know how well he won that war.
If anything STAR WARS may have been one of the last straws on the communist party.
BUT, I think Levi's & McDonalds ended communism. Under comunism, used Levi pants cost a fortune.
AND, a McDonalds burger ad drifting accross the air ways, showed them things they couldn't have.
A picture is worth a thousand words.

 

[heartsurgeon]

i don't recall the Germans putting up a big fuss when the soviet tanks rolled into Prague...

reminded me of what the West Germans did to bring about the defeat of the Soviet Union, and the release of Poland from communist hegemony? The last time the Germans did anything with Poland was.............oh, best to let that one go unmentioned...

 

[tnitsuj]

Gorbachev killed the Soviet Union, along with almost 80 years of failed economic policy. The US might have helped, but we weren't even the major cause.

 

[heartsurgeon]

The US might have helped

well at least there's a glimmer of hope for you......

our buddy from Darmstadt, Germany thinks (at least i believe he is implying this) the GERMANS helped the Poles gain independance..
HAHAHAHAH now that's putting some wicked spin on history and the facts..bomb the daylights out of a country, reduce it to rubble, commit genocide within its borders, let a communist dictatorship overrun the country, all the while knowing the communist system would fail, and the Poles would be free again! That German weed must be some potent stuff.....

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

for those of you that were in diapers back then..Reagan was President from 1981-1989. the reason the Soviets were "no longer prepared to use military force to keep communist parties in satellite states in power" was because the soviets were broke, and Reagan and the "star Wars" initiative is why they went broke...

Let me see if I can explain this so even a brutish surgeon can understand. The dysfunctional totalitarian regime in Poland (with assistance from Kremlin planners) was running the Polish economy (and that of the Warsaw Pact) into the ground during the early 1980s. Solidarity was just as much a revolt against economic conditions as it was sociopolitical. Walesa's Nobel Prize was awarded in 1983 as was his Time Man of the Year, IIRC. Reagan announced his Star Wars initiative on March 23, 1983. Accordingly, Reagan doesn't even fulfill the temporal relationship necessary to prove causation.

The most important factors in Poland's liberation:

1) Dysfunctional state
2) Walesa/Solidarity: sustained populist uprising
3) Pope John Paul II: sustained populist uprising in a largely Catholic country
4) Gorbachev: refused to provide military support for dysfunctional Warsaw Pact regimes

Reagan conquered Communism? Not hardly . . . Reagan was a master of rhetoric and taking credit for events well beyond his influence.

Mr. Gorbachev tear down this wall . . .

. . . was nothing more than grandstanding. The eventual fall of the wall was set in motion decades beforehand.

But perhaps even more important, the drive for democracy within the Polish party challenged the Leninist doctrine of centralized party discipline. Poland's festering economic crisis also put a drain on the whole Soviet bloc, whose member nations' economies were interlocked within the COMECON trade organization. And in Moscow's worst-case scenario, the "Polish disease" might infect other East bloc countries and the Ukraine, posing a threat to the future of the Soviet empire.

I repeat this was the late 70s, early 80s. Jimmy Carter would have presided over the same fall of the Soviet Empire . . . or dare I say . . . President Mondale.Q

 

[heartsurgeon]

"On December 23, 1981, in an address to the nation, U.S. President Ronald Reagan condemned the recent Communist crackdown on Solidarity--Poland's popular trade union movement. Solidarity was founded by shipyard worker Lech Walesa in 1980, calling for improved conditions for workers and greater liberty in Polish society. Under Walesa's guidance, the organization rapidly grew in size and political influence, and soon became a threat to the authority of Poland's Communist government. In 1981, a national strike calling for the establishment of a five-day workweek paralyzed the nation, and in response, Communist authorities appointed Soviet Army General Wojciech Jaruzelski as Polish leader. When Solidarity announced plans to hold a referendum on Jaruzelski's regime, martial law was declared, Walesa and other Solidarity leaders were arrested, and Solidarity was made illegal. In late December, President Ronald Reagan imposed economic reprisals against the U.S.S.R. for its organizing role in the Communist crackdown. "

Lech Walesa was ultimately released when Soviet military control of Poland was no longer economically feasible. Walesa later praised the American system of free markets and democratic pluralism. "It has been efficient in this country and it will be efficient in our country as well." and thanked "presidents Ronald Reagan and George Bush for their help in the eventual overthrow of the communists" from a speech 1996 at Sam Houston University.

Sheesh, your spending to much time around kids..you need to talk with grownups more often..

President Mondale

i suppose you think Reagan stole the election from Mondale ?
49/50 states vote Reagan
Home state of Minnesota and D.C. vote Mondale (worse defeat since Roosevelt beat Hoover)

your really starting to worry me BBD....to much time with the ADD crowd...

 

[adlep]

I am sorry to say, but once again, Regan did not have anything to do with the end of communism.
You MUST UNDERSTAND that the Soviets were STILL more than able to take over Poland even before the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991. There were many Soviet bases in Poland even around 1992, so taking over my homeland would not be a difficult taks. The Soviets were weaken but still more than capable of mounting the counter offensive...
Edit: Between 1979 and 1981 (Martal Law crackdown) the Solidarity movement had like 5 million registered members and probably 2x of that size not registered supporters. All of these people wanted to end the communism. Almost all of the Polish society around 1980 wanted democracy and was influenced by the "Western" values and traditions.
So, what I really do not understand is how the heck Mr. Regan could play any role in that. As far as I remember he came to power only a year before Martial Law was introduced in Poland.
So, to say HE ended the communism is a gross misunderstanding.
He probably helped somewhat, but his role in ending the eastern block was symbolic at best...

U.S. President Ronald Reagan condemned the recent Communist crackdown on Solidarity--Poland's popular trade union movement. Solidarity was founded by shipyard worker Lech Walesa in 1980, calling for improved conditions for workers and greater liberty in Polish society.

Ha ha ha... and that call of his call did what?

Right...
Most likely it scared the Soviets to death...Not...

It was just a matter of politics for this guy. Nothing more. Look at Afganistan durring the 80s or at Iran Contras....
Blah...

i believe the Poles understand better than most in this forum that the U.S. was responsible for defeating Communism and having that yoke removed from their back.

Ha ha ha ha lol , :beer:
I believe that Mr. Rosevelt has sold us to Stalin in 1945 (in Yalta conference) therefore he is responsible for communism in Poland in the first place. Once again, everything is a matter of politics.
I believe that the United States did relatively little to help Poland.
US did not defeat the communism. It is/was not a role of the US in the first place to do that. It is a matter of the repressed society to take the matter into its own hands and decide what is the best option OUT of the crisis.
You call us kids here, yet YOUR statements are ignorant.
Once again, look at what is going on in Iraq now...
The only thing US has introduced over there is CHAOS and anarchy. The real change has to come from within of the society.

for those of you that were in diapers back then..Reagan was President from 1981-1989. the reason the Soviets were "no longer prepared to use military force to keep communist parties in satellite states in power" was because the soviets were broke, and Reagan and the "star Wars" initiative is why they went broke...

Not true.
In December 1981 Soviets were mounting yet another miliary intervention into Poland. Polish Gen. Jaruzelski realizing the danger has introduced the Martial Law to give the Soviets the impression that HE is in control.
Around 1981 the Soviets were still capable of a big punch, in fact they were capable of throwing a punch right until the end...

 

[heartsurgeon]

I believe that Mr. Rosevelt has sold us to Stalin in 1945 (in Yalta conference) therefore he is responsible for communism in Poland in the first place. Once again, everything is a matter of politics.
I believe that the United States did relatively little to help Poland.
US did not defeat the communism. It is/was not a role of the US in the first place to do that. It is a matter of the repressed society to take the matter into its own hands and decide what is the best option OUT of the crisis.
You call us kids here, yet YOUR statements are ignorant.
Once again, look at what is going on in Iraq now...
The only thing US has introduced over there is CHAOS and anarchy. The real change has to come from within of the society.

Yep, you did all by yourselves...that's the way i remember it now...

 

[Alistar7]

Originally posted by: DamnDirtyApe
What does this article have to do with France? While that country was one of the most vocal opponents of the invasion of Iraq, every country in Europe except Poland was also against it.

And as to the above, I'm sure most Germans would be happy to have US troops withdrawn from their territory. A total pullout would have only a minor economic effect on Europe's largest economy.

I thought Italy and Spain were also for this, along with other smaller countries.....

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

Walesa later praised the American system of free markets and democratic pluralism. "It has been efficient in this country and it will be efficient in our country as well." and thanked "presidents Ronald Reagan and George Bush for their help in the eventual overthrow of the communists" from a speech 1996 at Sam Houston University.

Miss Manners would call that a polite complement . . . not necessarily true but appropriate given the circumstances.

i suppose you think Reagan stole the election from Mondale ?

Nope . . . I think Mondale got his butt kicked fair and square. Granted the American population's penchant for electing marginally functional males is astonishing.

 

[adlep]

Yep, you did all by yourselves...that's the way i remember it now...

We are a little bit sarcastic aren't we?
Probably the US government has offered some assistance, but then the entire effort to overthrown the red regime would lead to nothing without the SUPPORT OF THE MASSES + you have to remeber that the process of deterioration of the communism in Eastern Europe started in the 60s. Mr Regan was still a governor of California at that time. And I dont think he really cared about POland or any other Eastern European country....
Once again the US played some role, but then to say that the Regan has overthrown the communism for the Poles isn't very smart...

 

[heartsurgeon]

yes, the poles are brave and strong people, and remarkably likable as well.

they have been treated poorly in history by their neighbors.

they no doubt played the central role in pushing communism out of poland

this did not happen in a vacumn, and the rapid pace at which the soviet empire disintegrated was precisely because of reagan's will to compete with and defeat the soviets, rather than appease and placate them. he forced them to keep pace with our military build up, which they could not economically sustain, and this internal lack of funds and resources allowed freedom to express itself throughout eastern europe.

i tried (apparently in vain) to provide a history lesson, where in Czechoslovakia, years early, a similar "velvet revolution" was attempted against soviet hegemony, and this was crushed OVERNITE with tanks and troops, made possible by the financial resources of the soviets. The rest of Europe whimpered, held a few midnite vigils with candles, and then promptly forgot about the czechs.

reagan made a huge difference. reagan accelerated the demise of the soviet union to the point that people couldn't believe it was happening so fast, when it happened. If you weren't around then, you've got no idea how rapidly it occurre3, and how it took people by surprise. if it was so "inevitable" and reagan's influence so slight, then why the utter amazement at how fast it came crashing down. historical revisionism will not be allowed to go unchallenged. Reagan's role was central in the defeat of communism, and the end of the cold war. what ever prosperity we have now (which many of you attribute to clinton), we would not have if we were still involved in an active "cold war" with another superpower..

 

[B00ne]

Originally posted by: heartsurgeon

The US might have helped

well at least there's a glimmer of hope for you......

our buddy from Darmstadt, Germany thinks (at least i believe he is implying this) the GERMANS helped the Poles gain independance..
HAHAHAHAH now that's putting some wicked spin on history and the facts..bomb the daylights out of a country, reduce it to rubble, commit genocide within its borders, let a communist dictatorship overrun the country, all the while knowing the communist system would fail, and the Poles would be free again! That German weed must be some potent stuff.....

oukayy - whatever you say.

 

[Zebo]

The conservative myth that Ronald Reagan ended communism by out-spending the USSR and making speeches is simply that- a myth ...conservatives hope the longer they repeat it it will become true. Like big governemnt liberals when it's republican presidents who grow the size and scope of governemnt.

If anything it PROLONGED the envitable by forcing them to crack down even more in thier police state and fear of loosing face to RR grandstanding..communism reduces the incentive to work, since everyone is relying on some else for the goods and police state artiscoracy did'nt help much either. They were giving up collectively as early as 1970.



In his own words: RR biography:

The Soviet economy was being held together by baling wire. In Poland and other Eastern-bloc

countries, the economies were also a mess, and there were rumblings of nationalist fevor within

the captive Soviet empire. If they didn't make some changes, it seemed clear to me that in time

that Communism would collaspe of its own weight, and I wondered how we as a nation could use

these cracks in the Soviet system to accelerate the process of collaspe

 

[heartsurgeon]

If anything it PROLONGED the envitable

Good God man! there is an endowed chairmanship in History at Harvard awaiting you!
What monumental revisionism!
What refreshingly guiltless butchery of facts!
Hitlerian!, No! Stalinesque!

you are sans tache!