Insight as to why Francenow dislikes Poland.

Jan 12, 2003
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We'll be building military bases in Poland in the not-too-distant future and downsizing in Germany. Both countries have the French to thank.
 

Czar

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
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Originally posted by: xxxxxJohnGaltxxxxx
We'll be building military bases in Poland in the not-too-distant future and downsizing in Germany. Both countries have the French to thank.
but are you forgetting it were Frence, Germany and Russia who were the primary countries opposing the war?
why should France get the blame for US pulling out of Germany?
 
Jan 12, 2003
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Originally posted by: Czar
Originally posted by: xxxxxJohnGaltxxxxx
We'll be building military bases in Poland in the not-too-distant future and downsizing in Germany. Both countries have the French to thank.
but are you forgetting it were Frence, Germany and Russia who were the primary countries opposing the war?
why should France get the blame for US pulling out of Germany?
...because I wholeheartedly believe the Germans followed France's lead; otherwise, had France of supported the effort, Germany would have had more pressure to "play with the team." Facts? Nope...personal opinion?that is all.

 

Czar

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
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Originally posted by: xxxxxJohnGaltxxxxx
Originally posted by: Czar
Originally posted by: xxxxxJohnGaltxxxxx
We'll be building military bases in Poland in the not-too-distant future and downsizing in Germany. Both countries have the French to thank.
but are you forgetting it were Frence, Germany and Russia who were the primary countries opposing the war?
why should France get the blame for US pulling out of Germany?
...because I wholeheartedly believe the Germans followed France's lead; otherwise, had France of supported the effort, Germany would have had more pressure to "play with the team." Facts? Nope...personal opinion?that is all.
ah, just your opinion that puts the blame on France, ok then

 
Jan 12, 2003
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In short, it is easiest for us to punish the ?Axis of Weasels? by removing U.S. dollars in the member?s country we currently ?occupy.?
 

DamnDirtyApe

Senior member
Apr 30, 2001
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What does this article have to do with France? While that country was one of the most vocal opponents of the invasion of Iraq, every country in Europe except Poland was also against it.

And as to the above, I'm sure most Germans would be happy to have US troops withdrawn from their territory. A total pullout would have only a minor economic effect on Europe's largest economy.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
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Maybe if Bush wins reelection we can get the whole world to team up against us. I love us vs them.
 

arsbanned

Banned
Dec 12, 2003
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I'm sure most Germans would be happy to have US troops withdrawn from their territory. A total pullout would have only a minor economic effect on Europe's largest economy.
Regardless of ones stance on the issue, removing all bases and troops and canceling all contractural arrangements with Germany will have a major impact on the German economy.

From a Guardian article (which presumably would apply the most positive spin for the Germans):

German industry earns billions of euros every year from supporting the US Army Europe which, although reduced from its Cold War heights, still totals 42,000 troops and 785 tanks - almost three times as many as the British Army owns. Many of these soldiers and their fighting equipment, including Apache helicopters, have already been sent to the Gulf.

German industry is heavily involved in supporting the US presence. Among the defence companies which stand to lose out are missile-maker Diehl, aerospace and defence giant EADS Deutschland, armaments maker Rheinmetall and vehicle maker Krauss-Maffei Wegmann.
Article
 

kage69

Lifer
Jul 17, 2003
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every country in Europe except Poland was also against it.
Are you generalizing, or uninformed? Poland was not by itself in support for the US, sorry.
 
Jan 12, 2003
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Originally posted by: DamnDirtyApe

And as to the above, I'm sure most Germans would be happy to have US troops withdrawn from their territory. A total pullout would have only a minor economic effect on Europe's largest economy.

Yea, okay...you have any idea how many civilians we employ there and how much we pay each locality for the land usage/maneuver damage, etc? Moreover, how much more of a % of their GDP do you think they would have to spend to pick up the slack in their defense when we exit?
 

DamnDirtyApe

Senior member
Apr 30, 2001
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Originally posted by: arsbanned

From a Guardian article (which presumably would apply the most positive spin for the Germans):
Why would you presume this? The Guardian is a UK paper, and is not especially left-wing from what I gather.

And given that Germany's GDP for 2003 is approximately
$2.184 trillion, the term 'billions of Euros' is not specific enough to really tell us anything useful.
 

Martin

Lifer
Jan 15, 2000
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Originally posted by: xxxxxJohnGaltxxxxx
Originally posted by: Czar
Originally posted by: xxxxxJohnGaltxxxxx
We'll be building military bases in Poland in the not-too-distant future and downsizing in Germany. Both countries have the French to thank.
but are you forgetting it were Frence, Germany and Russia who were the primary countries opposing the war?
why should France get the blame for US pulling out of Germany?
...because I wholeheartedly believe the Germans followed France's lead; otherwise, had France of supported the effort, Germany would have had more pressure to "play with the team." Facts? Nope...personal opinion?that is all.
Yet, reality shows us otherwise. It was France that followed Germany's lead. You don't remember, but there was an election campaign in the summer of 2002 in Germany and Schroder's opposition to the war (and the endless america bashing) is what got him re-elected.

France started around October or November IIRC, even if they were more vocal by the end.

http://www.wadsworth.com/politicalscience_d/special_features/popups/in_the_news/september_2002_issues.html#Issue_1
 

308nato

Platinum Member
Feb 10, 2002
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Originally posted by: DamnDirtyApe
A total pullout would have only a minor economic effect on Europe's largest economy.
What do you consider "minor" ?

The overall economy would correct itself over time for sure...but...what of all the "little" people that make up that economy ? Some areas would be devastated, or is that still "minor" ?

 

arsbanned

Banned
Dec 12, 2003
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Why would you presume this? The Guardian is a UK paper, and is not especially left-wing from what I gather.
We're getting off topic, but I can tell you, you gather wrong. It is generally considered to be a left wing news outlet.

Here, we'll let the Brits describe it themselves:
The Guardian Newspaper
The Guardian Newspaper of Manchester and London has a relatively small but loyal readership compared to other quality national daily papers. Politically left of centre, it is generally sympathetic to socialist ideals and values. As it's name suggests, it also champions the causes of minority interests and pressure groups
Link

Anyway, we'll have to disagree on what economic impact the U.S. dissolving ties with Germany will have on Germany. Yeah, Germany has a big economy, but it will be affected. I'm not saying that's right or wrong, it just is.
 

AndrewR

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
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Originally posted by: kage69
every country in Europe except Poland was also against it.
Are you generalizing, or uninformed? Poland was not by itself in support for the US, sorry.
Or was he just plain lying, hoping that no one would notice? He doesn't seem keen to answer.
 

BaliBabyDoc

Lifer
Jan 20, 2001
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Yet, reality shows us otherwise. It was France that followed Germany's lead. You don't remember, but there was an election campaign in the summer of 2002 in Germany and Schroder's opposition to the war (and the endless america bashing) is what got him re-elected.

France started around October or November IIRC, even if they were more vocal by the end.
Who needs facts when they've got opinions?

It's difficult to argue with Polish leaders that feel the need to support the removal of despotic regimes . . . considering the scarred history of Eastern Europe. OTOH, Poland has been on the US dole for years . . . a process that was accelerated during the early years of Bush, the Lesser. The leadership of Poland, like S. Korea, Japan, and several other countries cannot afford to say "No" to the US. But Polish leaders owe their current state of development to the EU. And the future of Poland lies in the support of it's EU counterparts . . . not as a foreign depot for militant, authoritarian regimes.
 

heartsurgeon

Diamond Member
Aug 18, 2001
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Polish leaders owe their current state of development to the EU.
i believe the Poles understand better than most in this forum that the U.S. was responsible for defeating Communism and having that yoke removed from their back.
The europeans didn't "defeat communism", the U.S. lead by Ronald Reagan defeated communism, and ultimately freed Poland from being a Communist satrap.
 

heartsurgeon

Diamond Member
Aug 18, 2001
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It is generally accepted that Reagan promoted the rapid collapse of the Soviet Union by forcing them to direct more of their resources into military spending, which they were unable to sustain. This brought about the internal collapse to the goverment as it was less and less able to met the basic needs of its populace.
 

adlep

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2001
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The europeans didn't "defeat communism", the U.S. lead by Ronald Reagan defeated communism, and ultimately freed Poland from being a Communist satrap.
Nah, thats not true. As a matter of fact it is one of the more ignorant statements.
I am Polish so I know better :p
Nothing against Regan, but then again US had a very remote influence over the Eastern Block countries, even back in the 80's.
The communism could not end WITHOUT the Poles, Russians, Czechs, Romaninans, Hungarians, to actually end it and take the "democracy path".
?
Don't agree with me?
Look what is going on right now in Iraq.
The US have done ALL OF the work, yet it is going to take a lot of time and effort (and US $$$ resources) to build the civil society in Iraq, even with the humongous US material assistance.

Conclusion: Wihtout the WILL of the people to have a free society, you will not have a free society.
The kind, supportive statements of the US leaders, and the US money will not be enough without the help of the society itself.
Threfore, your statement is false....

It is generally accepted that Reagan promoted the rapid collapse of the Soviet Union by forcing them to direct more of their resources into military spending, which they were unable to sustain. This brought about the internal collapse to the goverment as it was less and less able to met the basic needs of its populace.
Another false statement/misconception.
The societies of Eastern Europe were ready to abandon the communism in 1968. By the late 60s it was very clear that the entire system in inefficient. People were ready to abandon it around 68 (Czechs and Poles).
The only way it was possible for the Polish regime to survive in the 70s was to ask the Western countries for grands and loans, promptly granted....? :|
 

BaliBabyDoc

Lifer
Jan 20, 2001
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believe the Poles understand better than most in this forum that the U.S. was responsible for defeating Communism and having that yoke removed from their back.
The europeans didn't "defeat communism", the U.S. lead by Ronald Reagan defeated communism, and ultimately freed Poland from being a Communist satrap.
I would make a joke about sampling the midazolam . . . but no responsible anesthesiologist would let a surgeon get within arms reach of the IV anesthetics.

The US defeated Communism . . . hmm like Cuba (oops that's socialist), how about Vietnam (nope), oh I know the largest Communist country on the planet, China . . . nope, maybe North Korea . . . stay tuned? Much like Clinton rode a wave of economic good fortune . . . the Reagan years coincided with the fall of a dysfunctional totalitarian state. And when it comes to having the yoke removed from their back most Poles would say "Lech" not Ronald. In fact, Walesa received a Nobel Prize in 1983 and was named Time Man of the Year . . . I guess Reagan worked fast.


Poland's recent history . . . path to Freedom . . . working from within

For someone not old enough to vote for Reagan or Bush (the Greater) . . . it's curious that I have a more accurate perspective on 20th century history than my elders. Those one room schoolhouses apparently left much to be desired.
 

heartsurgeon

Diamond Member
Aug 18, 2001
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for those of you who have a dificult time reading, communism, and the ability of the soviet union to militarily control it's
satraps (you apparently don't remember the bulgarians, lead by soviet generals rolling the tanks into Prague) collapsed becuase the soviets did not have the resources to maintain its huge military. this allowed social dissent to blossom and express itself. there was always dissent in the former soviet union and easter europe.....except when the soviets had enough resources, they would militarily crush it.

your knowledge of history is pathetic
read this about alexander dubcek.
lech walensa would have ended up like dubcek if it wasn't for Reagan.
 

BaliBabyDoc

Lifer
Jan 20, 2001
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Pathetic . . . indeed . . .

History of mid-late 20th century Poland
If any one event had helped to create the psychological climate in which Solidarity trades union emerged, it was the visit of Pope John Paul II to his homeland in June 1979. From the moment that the Pope knelt in Warsaw's airport to kiss the ground, he was cheered wildly by millions of Poles. John Paul never criticized the Communist regime directly, nor did he have to: his meaning was plain enough. "The exclusion of Christ from the history of man is an act against man," he told an enormous outdoor congregation in Warsaw. With that hardly veiled allusion to Communism, a deafening roar of approval filled the great city square. Says a Polish bishop of that day: "The Polish people broke the barrier of fear. They were hurling a challenge at their Marxist rulers."

During the August 1980 defiance of the communist authorities, the Lenin shipyard functioned as the emotional center of an extraordinary national movement. Festooned with flowers, white and red Polish flags and portraits of Pope John Paul II, the plant's iron gates came to symbolize that heady mixture of hope, faith and patriotism that sustained the workers through their vigil.
It must have been the GOP nomination of Reagan that motivated the Polish.

Some 900,000 Poles quit the Communist party after August 1980, reducing its strength to a mere 2.5 million, only 7% of the population. The resignations increased in October when the Central Committee urged party members, about 1 million of whom belonged to Solidarity, to quit the union. In a strikingly candid statement, Central Committee Member Marian Arendt recently told a Polish weekly: "Mostly it is workers who are leaving (the party). Once I was so naive as to think that a few evil men were responsible for the errors of the party. Now I no longer have such illusions. There is something wrong in our whole apparatus, in our entire structure. "The party was on the verge of total collapse.
All the while, the Kremlin watched with rising anxiety. Solidarity's very existence was incompatible with the Communist Party's monopoly of power. But perhaps even more important, the drive for democracy within the Polish party challenged the Leninist doctrine of centralized party discipline. Poland's festering economic crisis also put a drain on the whole Soviet bloc, whose member nations' economies were interlocked within the COMECON trade organization. And in Moscow's worst-case scenario, the "Polish disease" might infect other East bloc countries and the Ukraine, posing a threat to the future of the Soviet empire.
In case you didn't bother to read these comments reflect 1981-1982 events.

Over the following years the Jaruzelski regime became even more unpopular as economic conditions worsened. Under Mikhail Gorbachev the Soviet Union was no longer prepared to use military force to keep communist parties in satellite states in power. The Polish Communist party was finally forced to again negotiate with Walesa and his colleagues in a revived Solidarity movement. The result was the holding of parliamentary elections in September 1989 which led to the establishment of a Solidarity led government.
Funny I don't see Reagan anywhere?

 

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