• We should now be fully online following an overnight outage. Apologies for any inconvenience, we do not expect there to be any further issues.

Initial AMD Hammer will have a PR rating of 3400+. I'll take two.

Page 3 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

Wingznut

Elite Member
Dec 28, 1999
16,968
2
0
so many people here that are saying that the pr system sux seem to either forget or not know that AMD never said that the pr system was a comparison to the P4 chips.
From AMD's Athlon XP FAQ...

"Model numbers are designed to communicate the relative application performance among the various AMD Athlon XP processors. The AMD Athlon XP processor 2200+ can outperform an Intel Pentium® 4 processor operating at 2.2GHz on a broad array of end-user applications."

So, which is it? Who knows?


Btw, do you guys know who validates AMD's benchmarks? Arthur Andersen. (Except now, AMD's site just refers to them as "Andersen.)

I'm not saying that there's necessarily any inconsistancies going on... But who's going to trust Arthur Andersen, about anything, any more?

 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,402
8,574
126
Originally posted by: SexyK

Right now, Intel is making the fastest chips in the world, both in MHz and in pure power.
Kramer

IBM and power4 might have something to say about that. heck, the itanium 2 team might have something to say about that.


the real difference here isn't the chip design, its the engineering $$$ and minds that intel can spend to bring out .13 far before everyone else, do better core revisions, etc. how many other manufacturers are shipping .13u parts in volume? any? AMD is shipping some, TSMC can't get it right, etc. add to the fact that most of AMD's r&d money and man-hours are probably going to the hammer project right now and the k7 withers on the vine.
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,402
8,574
126
Originally posted by: Wingznut PEZ


Btw, do you guys know who validates AMD's benchmarks? Arthur Andersen. (Except now, AMD's site just refers to them as "Andersen.)

I'm not saying that there's necessarily any inconsistancies going on... But who's going to trust Arthur Andersen, about anything, any more?
c'mon wingz... at least you can be above the FUD.
 

socketman

Member
Mar 4, 2002
116
0
0
Why did this become a discussion about AMD's PR rating? The original post was Hammer will debut at 3400+ and some speculated speeds of 2.6 gigs (for that high a PR rating)..

Guys... no and no. It wont be 3400 or anywhere near 2.6 gigs

So quit getting your hopes up. I dont want to see any crushed spirits in December when the darn thing finally gets benchmarked. AMD is making Hammer now so they will have enough to ship by late december. Which means whatever design they have now is what they are going with. And what they are going with is NOT 3400+ at 2.6

I will bookmark this thread, and come December I got $100 that says no 2.6 or anything near that. Any takers?
 

imgod2u

Senior member
Sep 16, 2000
993
0
0
Well, back on topic. I think someone had a point. The general buzz about Hammer has been the PR rating of 3400+ (and due to AMD's track record with their current PR's, I'd give it some credit). They've already broken the hype they built around an October release. Most of the hype over 64-bit has been broken by now. This is one of the last things they have to go on as far as initial entry "umpf". At this point, in order not to disappoint their rabid fans any more, they have to release a PR 3400+. Even if it has to be delayed 3 months. Of course it won't have the same effect as if it were released in October of this year but hey, a little hype is better than lots of dissappointment.
As for the PR, really, this has been banged over and over again (federal prison style). Don't drag it out again.
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,402
8,574
126
Originally posted by: imgod2u
Well, back on topic. I think someone had a point. The general buzz about Hammer has been the PR rating of 3400+ (and due to AMD's track record with their current PR's, I'd give it some credit). They've already broken the hype they built around an October release. Most of the hype over 64-bit has been broken by now. This is one of the last things they have to go on as far as initial entry "umpf". At this point, in order not to disappoint their rabid fans any more, they have to release a PR 3400+. Even if it has to be delayed 3 months. Of course it won't have the same effect as if it were released in October of this year but hey, a little hype is better than lots of dissappointment.
As for the PR, really, this has been banged over and over again (federal prison style). Don't drag it out again.

i, for one, would be happy if it was the same as whatever intel had at the time of release.
 

Carrot44

Golden Member
Oct 9, 1999
1,763
0
76
Q4 Where is the AMD Athlon XP processor manufactured? What process technology is used?
A4 The AMD Athlon XP processor is manufactured on AMD's advanced 0.13 micron copper process technology at Fab 30 in Dresden, Germany

Would love to tour this advanced facility :D Anybody want to buy me a ticket?

Ken
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,785
6,345
126
Originally posted by: Wingznut PEZ
so many people here that are saying that the pr system sux seem to either forget or not know that AMD never said that the pr system was a comparison to the P4 chips.
From AMD's Athlon XP FAQ...

"Model numbers are designed to communicate the relative application performance among the various AMD Athlon XP processors. The AMD Athlon XP processor 2200+ can outperform an Intel Pentium® 4 processor operating at 2.2GHz on a broad array of end-user applications."

So, which is it? Who knows?


Btw, do you guys know who validates AMD's benchmarks? Arthur Andersen. (Except now, AMD's site just refers to them as "Andersen.)

I'm not saying that there's necessarily any inconsistancies going on... But who's going to trust Arthur Andersen, about anything, any more?


Wingz, WTH was that? I expect more from you than this lame attempt at FUD!

Yea, AA sucks and all, but you damn well know that every reputable site on the net confirms that AMD has yet to deceive anyone regarding performance of the Athlon.

Anyway, it always shocks me how some are so vehement about the alleged "deception" of AMD's PR rating. Were you equally vehement when Intel kept the MHZ rating from PIII to P4? Was/is a P4 1400mhz actually faster than a PIII at 1000mhz?
 

Wingznut

Elite Member
Dec 28, 1999
16,968
2
0
FUD... Probably the single worst acronym on the net...

Fear... Nope, I'm certainly not in fear of anything I've said.
Uncertainty... I'm certain of everything I said above.
Doubt... Nope, I have no doubt in what I said.


So, what does FUD have to do with anything???

And what did I say that wasn't the absolute truth?
 

Degenerate

Platinum Member
Dec 17, 2000
2,271
0
0
This is one of the last things they have to go on as far as initial entry "umpf". At this point, in order not to disappoint their rabid fans any more, they have to release a PR 3400+. Even if it has to be delayed 3 months. Of course it won't have the same effect as if it were released in October of this year but hey, a little hype is better than lots of dissappointment.

Yeah true. I actually think that on a broader scale, where most of the targetd people dont know anything about computers, AMDneeds to release something with a high PR rating (probably 3000+) for them to be successful. Whether their CPU really do compare to a P4 3.0Ghz or not, they will suffer if they don't. My guess right now about the release date would be probably early next year.
 

Snoop

Golden Member
Oct 11, 1999
1,424
0
76
I'm not saying that there's necessarily any inconsistancies going on... But who's going to trust Arthur Andersen, about anything, any more?
The point is, who really cares who validates the benchmarks for AMD. AMD's rating system, viewed by most rational observers, has been on the conservative side and is definately not deceiptful. Without this system,the uninformed customer would be the only one being deceived, especilly in the case of the early P4's, which did not compare well clock for clock with its counterparts. Also, AMD's choosing of Arthur Anderson was done because at the time over a year ago, AA was a highly respected and Visible accounting agency which lended credence to their PR ratings.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,785
6,345
126
Originally posted by: Wingznut PEZ
FUD... Probably the single worst acronym on the net...

Fear... Nope, I'm certainly not in fear of anything I've said.
Uncertainty... I'm certain of everything I said above.
Doubt... Nope, I have no doubt in what I said.


So, what does FUD have to do with anything???

And what did I say that wasn't the absolute truth?


Whatever dude. Didn't you leave AT not too long ago because of the crap your trying to pull now?
 

Wingznut

Elite Member
Dec 28, 1999
16,968
2
0
Nope... That's not at all why I quit posting for a while.

Besides... What did I say that was untrue?

Look... It's not that big of a deal. Just something that someone here pointed out to me, and I thought it was interesting.

Just drop it. It's not a big deal.
 

Rand

Lifer
Oct 11, 1999
11,071
1
81
Originally posted by: Wingznut PEZ

Fear... Nope, I'm certainly not in fear of anything I've said.
Uncertainty... I'm certain of everything I said above.
Doubt... Nope, I have no doubt in what I said.

So, what does FUD have to do with anything???

The term FUD is generally taken to mean that the person perpetrating FUD is trying to subtley insinuate potential problems with any product and hence create Fear/Uncertainty/Doubt regarding said product within another person.
It does not imply that the person spreading FUD bears those emotions him/herself.


And what did I say that wasn't the absolute truth?

Nothing.
You quoted AMD's FAQ mentioning the AthlonXP 2200+ is supposedly able to outperform an Intel Pentium 4 at 2.2GHz.
Following that you mentioned AMD used Arthur Anderson to validate their Model rating scheme and stated a distrust of the validity of anything Arthur Anderson has analyzed.

Stating that Arthur Anderson is untrustworthy and AMD employs (employed?) them to validate their results could be viewed as a statement that AMD's results cannot be trusted.
I do not believe you meant to spread FUD, but I can see how one could misconstrue your statement.


FWIW, at the time Arthur Anderson initially audited AMD's Model Rating scheme to help re-assure consumers of their authenticity they were widely regarded as one of the two most reputable corporate accounting and finance/consulting firms in the world. Given that position at the time it only made logical sense for AMD to utilize them to validate their product naming scheme.

I mention the above to show potentially legitimate and honest reasoning for utilizing Arthur Anderson.
Another potential reason is that AMD contacted them under the desire for Arthur Anderson to fraudulently misrepresent their AthlonXP Model Rating scheme.

Quite a large number of influcential tech companies such as Nokia, Sun, Hynix, Micron, and Microsoft have all emplyed Arthur Anderson in the past.
Even Intel themselves once used Arthur Anderson to validate test results done by their IOMeter application simulation suite of utilities.

If one distrusts everything Arthur Anderson has validated then one distrusts results boasted by quite a number of tech companies and corporations in other fields.


In any case, whether AMD did employ Arthur Anderson because they specifically were willing to be a little 'lenient' in their testing I do not know, I don't think anyone besides Arthur Anderson and AMD themselves know that.
Given the amount of scrutiny Arthur Anderson's past dealing are under I would hope that any other illegally conducted analysis will come to light.

In my mind, any validation methodology that Arthur Anderson employed could not hope to be as consistent and thorough as the huge multitudes of benchmarks employed by a lathe number of hardware review sites on the internet.
Those are the results I would be inclined to put my faith in- not Arthur Anderson's published results.

From the results I have seen, and my own experience I consider the AMD AthlonXP 2200+ microprocessor to be fully comparable on average with an Intel Pentium 4 2.2GHz assuming both processors are run on their respective highest performance officially supported platform, I also consider them fully comparable on average when both platforms are the lowest performance options fully supported.

I believe most people trust view AMD Model Rating scheme as being realistic based upon published test results from independent review sites, not based upon Arthur Anderson's test results.

I also view Arthur Anderson with a great deal of distrust. I do not distrust their results in reference to the AthlonXP because those have been independently verified by other sources I DO consider trustworthy, not the least of which is myself.

If I was to pick out published Arthur Anderson results that I do disagree with it would be those presented by Microsoft on the launch of Windows 2000 Professional showing significant performance increases for IIS run on 2000 vs. NT 4.0.
As a matter of interest Microsoft still has an ongoing alliance with Arthur Anderson that is published on their site.
 

ToBeMe

Diamond Member
Jun 21, 2000
5,711
0
0
But the rating system AMD is using is flawed and becomes more so with each release.

PR = 1500 + ((True_MHz - 1333) * 1.5)

That formula shows how at 1733MHz (the fastest Athlon XP available today), the PR rating evaluates to: 1500 + ((1733 - 1333) * 1.5) ==> 1500 + (400 * 1.5) ==> 1500 + 600 ==> 2100+. The difference between the true MHz and 2100+ rating represents a 21.2% overstatement from clock speed.

However, note also that as you move higher, a 2.0GHz Athlon XP's (2000MHz) value, for example, becomes: 1500 + ((2000 - 1333) * 1.5) ==> 2500+. The true MHz and 2500+ rating now represents a 25% (!!) overstatement from clock speed, an increase of 3.8% over that at 2100+! And the overstatement only *GETS WORSE* as frequencies increase.

AMD's upcoming Hammer, which is reported to be rated at 3400+, will equate to a 2600MHz (using the above formula), an overstatement of 30.8%. I'm forced to say it, but that is unacceptable. :(

The following series demonstrates this increase in discrepancy as frequencies rise (note that Ri = Relative Increase from previous model number, Ti = Total Increase from 1500+ baseline):

1333MHz = 1500+ = 12.5% overstatement
1400MHz = 1600+ = 14.3% overstatement (RI=1.8%, Ti=1.8%)
1466MHz = 1700+ = 16.0% overstatement (RI=1.7%, Ti=3.5%)
1533MHz = 1800+ = 17.4% overstatement (RI=1.4%, Ti=4.9%)
1600MHz = 1900+ = 18.8% overstatement (RI=1.4%, Ti=6.3%)
1667MHz = 2000+ = 20.0% overstatement (RI=1.2%, Ti=7.5%)
1733MHz = 2100+ = 21.2% overstatement (RI=1.2%, Ti=8.7%)

A difference of 400MHz represents a difference of 8.7%. While a total delta of 8.7% between low-end and high-end models is almost acceptable, anything beyond this point will produce an overstatement that is not acceptable. And the law of diminishing returns will play a greater and greater role (until Athlon XP undergoes an architectural change). In short, the model number formula breaks down for the three reasons stated previously.

In my opinion, AMD will be *FORCED* to take a different approach to measuring performance on its processors (hopefully AMD will do it in concert with an industry-wide movement). If the company does not change its approach and there is no industry-wide movement, AMD will surely face significant criticism from enthusiasts, consumers, and competition alike for its increasingly skewed values.

AMD is now faced with Intel's might and power! Even more damning to AMD's image, Intel will directly benefit from continued use of the model number system as processors ramp up in speed. Why? Because early AMD model numbers often represented a conservative comparison, e.g., a 1600+ Athlon XP was faster than a Pentium 4 1600MHz CPU. But as model numbers increase the overstatement also increases, and higher model numbers will definitely not show the overstatement the lower ones did. AMD's chips will begin to seem slow and outdated because the increase in clock speed necessary to carry out a linear progression of work performed is not commensurate with Intel's. Intel gains a noticeable amount with each release ... AMD's releases aren't moving quite as fast.

As a result, even without the introduction of Northwood, it would've soon been such that Intel's processors at a given numeric value significantly overshadow the performance of Athlon XPs at a model number of the same numeric value. This would even have been true on the standard benchmarks used by AMD to demonstrate its TPI! As the law of diminishing returns and the increased overstatement will only get worse, Intel can smile, because it's all working against AMD.

The Pentium 4 architecture, with its much faster front-side bus and less work per clock, has more "breathing room" before those same laws affecting AMD begin to slap it in the face. And, in the very near future, Intel can claim the following: "Even with their 'bad science' model numbers, our processors still outperform on the very tests they were using a few months ago to show how much faster they were!" And the laughter will be heard over the cigar smoke.

Bottom line: People will buy Intel's story hand over fist because it *WILL BE TRUE* (in the very near future). In short, AMD needs to address the performance separation between its model numbers and the Pentium 4 performance, for without a significant architectural increase (such as increasing Athlon XP's FSB to 333MHz, or incorporating the memory controller on the Athlon die), Intel's Pentium 4 will, undoubtedly, remain the speed king throughout the rest of Athlon's life.
 

Diable

Senior member
Sep 28, 2001
753
0
0
Originally posted by: sandorski

Anyway, it always shocks me how some are so vehement about the alleged "deception" of AMD's PR rating. Were you equally vehement when Intel kept the MHZ rating from PIII to P4? Was/is a P4 1400mhz actually faster than a PIII at 1000mhz?


A 2.53GHz P4 actually runs at 2.53GHz(19x133mhz) and a 1.2GHz P3 its actually runs at 1.2GHz(9X133mhz), so its indeed proper for Intel to keep the same mhz rating for the P4's that they used with the P3's, plus math hasn't changed .

Your commit about the P3 beating a P4 is so dated that it make you look stupid. When the 1.4GHz P4 was released no software on the market was SSE2 optimized so yes a 1GHz P3 could beat a 1.4GHz P4. But now that most new cpu intensive apps(3dStudio, Photoshop etc.)are SSE2 optimized that same P4 will spank that P3.
 

Tipnmo101

Senior member
Sep 18, 2000
451
0
76
It would be disappointing for the average consumer to buy a XP 2200 and find out its only 1.8GHz, but what about the consumer that buys an Intel 2.2GHz and finds out that its only as fast as a 1.8?. if you consider one company deceitful, the other is just as deceitful?

edit//add
I think the PR system can be confusing and causes controversy?. But someday people will have to realize that mhz isn?t the bottom line anymore? maybe this is the start

2nd edit//add
If the market doesn?t realize the difference between two processors at the same clock speed, AMD may change its approach? then we would have 2 company?s in a race to scarify as much as possible just to make its processor look faster to the consumer?. Is that what we want?
 

Wingznut

Elite Member
Dec 28, 1999
16,968
2
0
See, now that's one reason why I don't care for the PR rating. It's not logical, it's not rational, and there's no reasonable methodology behind it.

It makes no sense that the delta between PR and actual speed should get larger, with zero core improvements.

Actually... It's arguable, that with the P4's core improvements, that the PR should actually scale closer to the actual speed (since the P4 gets significantly faster at like clockspeeds.)

Being an analytical person by nature, this model is unacceptable. If I tried to present a "formula" such as the one the PR uses in my job, I'd be laughed right out of the room.

Like SexyK stated earlier, if you follow this PR model, then you come to the conclusion that a Willamette 1300mhz is just as fast as a 1300mhz Tbird. How is that not completely flawed???

If AMD were to say, "Using these benchmarks [being specific], we state that the Athlon XP 1800mhz is comparable to a P4-2200mhz", then that would make a little bit more sense. It would be more accurate.


The other reason is benchmarks. Who's to say what benchmarks are used? (Well, in this case, obviously AMD is the one who says.)

Take 3D rendering, for example. If you use Maya, then the AMD 1800mhz's PR seems to fit. But if you use Adobe or Lightwave, then the 1800mhz is actually slower than a 1600mhz Willamette!

In audio... Use LAME, and the AMD competes. Use MusicMatch or MP3 Maker, and it falls short of it's PR.

Those are only two examples. But I can find an example like that for pretty much every benchmark.


The day that AMD's PR rating runs into the brick wall, is the day they release the Athlon 1933mhz. This will be called a "2400+", but it will not live up to a P4-2.4b in the majority of the latest benchmarks.


Rand, I'm not trying to spread anything. Never have, never will.

When I say something that is not true, feel free to call me on it. Until then, I don't see what the big deal is. :eek:
 

MadRat

Lifer
Oct 14, 1999
11,999
307
126
<<The following series demonstrates this increase in discrepancy as frequencies rise (note that Ri = Relative Increase from previous model number, Ti = Total Increase from 1500+ baseline):

1333MHz = 1500+ = 12.5% overstatement
1400MHz = 1600+ = 14.3% overstatement (RI=1.8%, Ti=1.8%)
1466MHz = 1700+ = 16.0% overstatement (RI=1.7%, Ti=3.5%)
1533MHz = 1800+ = 17.4% overstatement (RI=1.4%, Ti=4.9%)
1600MHz = 1900+ = 18.8% overstatement (RI=1.4%, Ti=6.3%)
1667MHz = 2000+ = 20.0% overstatement (RI=1.2%, Ti=7.5%)
1733MHz = 2100+ = 21.2% overstatement (RI=1.2%, Ti=8.7%)

A difference of 400MHz represents a difference of 8.7%. While a total delta of 8.7% between low-end and high-end models is almost acceptable, anything beyond this point will produce an overstatement that is not acceptable. And the law of diminishing returns will play a greater and greater role (until Athlon XP undergoes an architectural change). In short, the model number formula breaks down for the three reasons stated previously.>>

Your point does hold alot of merit. Its even more unacceptable when you consider that the memory interface becomes less efficient relative to the processor speed as the clock speeds increase. Basically a 2100+ is more memory starved than the 1500+ model although the 2100+ is rated 8.7% more efficient...

If we adjust for the discrepancies we get:

1333MHz = 1500+
1400MHz = 1575+
1466MHz = 1650+
1533MHz = 1725+
1600MHz = 1800+
1666MHz = 1875+
1733MHz = 1950+
1800MHz = 2025+
1866MHz = 2100+
1933MHz = 2175+

In order to ACCURATELY match Pentium4/400 processors we'd have to RAMP UP the FSB speeds considerably to 178MHz, or DOWN to 90MHz or 100MHz:

1500+ = 1333MHz = 7.5 x 178fsb or 15 x 90fsb (or maybe 13 x 100fsb = 1300MHz, 13.5 x 100fsb = 1350MHz)
1600+ = 1420MHz = 8 x 178fsb or 16 x 90fsb (or maybe 14 x 100fsb = 1400MHz, 14.5 x 100fsb = 1450MHz)
1700+ = 1530MHz = 8.5 x 178fsb or 17 x 90fsb (or maybe 15 x 100fsb = 1500MHz, 15.5 x 100fsb = 1550MHz)
1800+ = 1600MHz = 9 x 178fsb or 18 x 90fsb (or maybe 16 x 100fsb = 1600MHz)
1900+ = 1690MHz = 9.5 x 178fsb or 19 x 90fsb (or maybe 16.5 x 100fsb = 1650MHz, 17 x 100fsb = 1700MHz)
2000+ = 1780MHz = 10 x 178fsb or 20 x 90fsb (or maybe 17.5 x 100fsb = 1750MHz, 18 x 100fsb = 1800MHz)
2100+ = 1867MHz = 10.5 x 178fsb or 21 x 90fsb (or maybe 18.5 x 100fsb = 1850MHz, 19 x 100fsb = 1900MHz)
2200+ = 1960MHz = 11 x 178fsb or 22 x 90fsb (or maybe 19.5 x 100fsb = 1950MHz, 20 x 100fsb = 2000MHz)
Final Ratio = between .8886... and .9

In order to ACCURATELY match Pentium4/533 processors we'd (again) have to DROP DOWN the FSB speeds back to 133MHz:

2266+ = roughly 2013MHz = 2000MHz = 15 x 133fsb
2333+ = roughly 2070MHz = 2066MHz = 15.5 x 133fsb
2400+ = roughly 2133MHz = 2133MHz = 16 x 133fsb
2466+ = roughly 2191MHz = 2200MHz = 16.5 x 133fsb
2533+ = roughly 2250MHz = 2266MHz = 17 x 133fsb
2600+ = roughly 2310MHz = 2333MHz = 17.5 x 133fsb
2666+ = roughly 2370MHz = 2400MHz = 18 x 133fsb
2733+ = roughly 2430MHz = 2466MHz = 18.5 x 133fsb
2800+ = roughly 2490MHz = 2533MHz = 19 x 133fsb
Final Ratio = .888349

In order to ACCURATELY match next-generation Pentium4/677 processors we'd (again) have to slightly JUMP UP the FSB speeds back towards 150MHz or 166MHz:

2666+ = roughly 2370MHz = 2400MHz = 16 x 150fsb (or maybe 14 x 166fsb = 2324MHz, 14.5 x 166fsb = 2407MHz)
2833+ = roughly 2517MHz = 2550MHz = 17 x 150fsb (or maybe 15 x 166fsb = 2490MHz, 15.5 x 166fsb = 2573MHz)
3000+ = roughly 2666MHz = 2700MHz = 18 x 150fsb (or maybe 16 x 166fsb = 2656MHz, 16.5 x 166fsb = 2740MHz)
3166+ = roughly 2813MHz = 2850MHz = 19 x 150fsb (or maybe 17 x 166fsb = 2822MHz, 17.5 x 166fsb = 2905MHz)
3333+ = roughly 2961MHz = 3000MHz = 20 x 150fsb (or maybe 18 x 166fsb = 2988MHz, 18.5 x 166fsb = 3071MHz)
Final Ratio = between .8717179 and .9

I seriously doubt we'll see an increase to 178MHz front-side bus to perfectly scale with the Pentium4/400s. And it makes absolutely ZERO sense to scale back to a 133MHz front-side bus to perfectly scale with the Pentium4/533s! And its a farce to think that the XP core will scale to 2700MHz anytime soon. So it looks like AMD will have to rethink thier PR scheme.

The only fair way for AMD to use their current Athlon-Palomino or Athlon-Tbred PR scheme in the future is to use a ratio of around 90% of the Pentium4 speed with which it compares. I am willing to bet the house that AMD won't be offering a HAMMER at 3GHz using a PR 3400+. The rumoured ratio of .76 for the supposed 2.6GHz Hammer with a PR 3400+ had better imply an IPC some 20% better than the Athlon-Palomino core. Not likely.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
Originally posted by: ToBeMe
....

Being the curious type, I decided to see how long the current rating system would last given no changes in either the Athlon XP or the P4 and that they would scale perfectly (plotting Mhz vs performance would yield a straight line). I started by assuming that an Athlon XP 1800+ (1.53 ghz) performed about like a P4 2.0A. According to Anand's benchmarks, this is true, with the exception of SSE2 apps (which are hardly the majority). That gives us the fact that the Athlon XP requires 76.5% of the clockspeed of the P4 to perform at about the same level (1530/2000=.765). So in order to keep up, for every 100 mhz the P4 increases, the Athlon XP needs to increase 76.5 mhz. I then calcuated the AMD product rating given the formula ToBeMe posted. Here's the results.

AMD Mhz:Intel Mhz:AMD PR
1530 2000 1795.5
1606.5 2100 1910.25
1683 2200 2025
1759.5 2300 2139.75
1836 2400 2254.5
1912.5 2500 2369.25
1989 2600 2484
2065.5 2700 2598.75
2142 2800 2713.5
2218.5 2900 2828.25
2295 3000 2943
2371.5 3100 3057.75
2448 3200 3172.5
2524.5 3300 3287.25
2601 3400 3402

As you can see, the current rating system doesn't stop being accurate until you approach 2.6 ghz and a 3400+ model rating. Now this assumes a lot of things, and it's safe to say that neither platform will scale perfectly, but I do not yet see any indication that the Athlon XP is slipping in performance increase per clock increase. Perhaps this will start to happen, but Barton should help out somewhat, and by the time RP ratings of 3400 are being reached, it would be time for Hammer. Hmm, that's exactly the speed where it might start being needed. Maybe AMD is more on top of things that some of you guys give them credit for.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
Originally posted by: MadRat
<<The following series demonstrates this increase in discrepancy as frequencies rise (note that Ri = Relative Increase from previous model number, Ti = Total Increase from 1500+ baseline):

1333MHz = 1500+ = 12.5% overstatement
1400MHz = 1600+ = 14.3% overstatement (RI=1.8%, Ti=1.8%)
1466MHz = 1700+ = 16.0% overstatement (RI=1.7%, Ti=3.5%)
1533MHz = 1800+ = 17.4% overstatement (RI=1.4%, Ti=4.9%)
1600MHz = 1900+ = 18.8% overstatement (RI=1.4%, Ti=6.3%)
1667MHz = 2000+ = 20.0% overstatement (RI=1.2%, Ti=7.5%)
1733MHz = 2100+ = 21.2% overstatement (RI=1.2%, Ti=8.7%)

A difference of 400MHz represents a difference of 8.7%. While a total delta of 8.7% between low-end and high-end models is almost acceptable, anything beyond this point will produce an overstatement that is not acceptable. And the law of diminishing returns will play a greater and greater role (until Athlon XP undergoes an architectural change). In short, the model number formula breaks down for the three reasons stated previously.>>

Your point does hold alot of merit. Its even more unacceptable when you consider that the memory interface becomes less efficient relative to the processor speed as the clock speeds increase. Basically a 2100+ is more memory starved than the 1500+ model although the 2100+ is rated 8.7% more efficient...

But this is true of the P4 as well...so what's your point?

If we adjust for the discrepancies we get:

1333MHz = 1500+
1400MHz = 1575+
1466MHz = 1650+
1533MHz = 1725+
1600MHz = 1800+
1666MHz = 1875+
1733MHz = 1950+
1800MHz = 2025+
1866MHz = 2100+
1933MHz = 2175+

In order to ACCURATELY match Pentium4/400 processors we'd have to RAMP UP the FSB speeds considerably to 178MHz, or DOWN to 90MHz:

1500+ = 1333MHz = 7.5 x 178fsb (or 15 x 90fsb)
1600+ = 1420MHz = 8 x 178fsb (or 16 x 90fsb)
1700+ = 1530MHz = 8.5 x 178fsb (or 17 x 90fsb)
1800+ = 1600MHz = 9 x 178fsb (or 18 x 90fsb)
1900+ = 1690MHz = 9.5 x 178fsb (or 19 x 90fsb)
2000+ = 1780MHz = 10 x 178fsb (or 20 x 90fsb)
2100+ = 1867MHz = 10.5 x 178fsb (or 21 x 90fsb)
2200+ = 1960MHz = 11 x 178fsb (or 22 x 90fsb)

In order to ACCURATELY match Pentium4/533 processors we'd (again) have to DROP DOWN the FSB speeds back to 133MHz:

2266+ = roughly 2013MHz = 2000MHz = 15 x 133fsb
2333+ = roughly 2070MHz = 2066MHz = 15.5 x 133fsb
2400+ = roughly 2133MHz = 2133MHz = 16 x 133fsb
2466+ = roughly 2191MHz = 2200MHz = 16.5 x 133fsb
2533+ = roughly 2250MHz = 2266MHz = 17 x 133fsb
2600+ = roughly 2310MHz = 2333MHz = 17.5 x 133fsb
2666+ = roughly 2370MHz = 2400MHz = 18 x 133fsb
2733+ = roughly 2430MHz = 2466MHz = 18.5 x 133fsb
2800+ = roughly 2490MHz = 2533MHz = 19 x 133fsb

In order to ACCURATELY match next-generation Pentium4/677 processors we'd (again) have to slightly JUMP UP the FSB speeds back towards 150MHz or 166MHz:

2666+ = roughly 2370MHz = 2400MHz = 16 x 150fsb (or maybe 14 x 166fsb = 2324MHz, 14.5 x 166fsb = 2407MHz)
2833+ = roughly 2517MHz = 2550MHz = 17 x 150fsb (or maybe 15 x 166fsb = 2490MHz, 15.5 x 166fsb = 2573MHz)
3000+ = roughly 2666MHz = 2700MHz = 18 x 150fsb (or maybe 16 x 166fsb = 2656MHz, 16.5 x 166fsb = 2740MHz)
3166+ = roughly 2813MHz = 2850MHz = 19 x 150fsb (or maybe 17 x 166fsb = 2822MHz, 17.5 x 166fsb = 2905MHz)
3333+ = roughly 2961MHz = 3000MHz = 20 x 150fsb (or maybe 18 x 166fsb = 2988MHz, 18.5 x 166fsb = 3071MHz)

I seriously doubt we'll see an increase to 178MHz front-side bus to perfectly scale with the Pentium4/400s. And it makes absolutely ZERO sense to scale back to a 133MHz front-side bus to perfectly scale with the Pentium4/533s! And its a farce to think that the XP core will scale to 2700MHz anytime soon. So it looks like AMD will have to rethink thier PR scheme.

Uh...what?
 

Wingznut

Elite Member
Dec 28, 1999
16,968
2
0
But your logic already doesn't work, Rainsford. According to your chart, the Athlon 1800mhz is comparable to a P4-2400mhz. And if you look around today, you'll see that's not the case...

Besides, you aren't taking into account that the P4 has gotten faster (per clockspeed) with the implimentations of .13µ, 512 cache, and especially with the 533mhz FSB. And it will only continue to get faster, with future improvements.

Also, take into account that newer applications and benchmarks run faster on a P4 than the older ones did. That trend will continue.


Like I said above... IMHO, when AMD releases the Athlon 1933mhz, even the staunchest PR supporters won't be able to (rationally) justify it.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
You know guys, this whole argument about the RP rating would make more sense without future predictions. As of right now, it's still conservative. If you simply look at Anand's benchmarks, you will see that at a given RP/clockspeed, the Athlon XP is faster. That is true at every speed in almost every benchmark. If this ever becomes not true, AMD could change their rating system to make it once again true. We have no idea if they are going to do this, but it would be very easy for them to do, and there would be no reason not to do it. Arguing about how innacurate it will be many ghz from now with a completely different CPU is pointless. Let's just see what happens, but as of right now I think it works just fine. If it has problems, AMD will adjust it.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
Originally posted by: Wingznut PEZ
But your logic already doesn't work, Rainsford. According to your chart, the Athlon 1800mhz is comparable to a P4-2400mhz. And if you look around today, you'll see that's not the case...

Besides, you aren't taking into account that the P4 has gotten faster (per clockspeed) with the implimentations of .13µ, 512 cache, and especially with the 533mhz FSB. And it will only continue to get faster, with future improvements.

Also, take into account that newer applications and benchmarks run faster on a P4 than the older ones did. That trend will continue.


Like I said above... IMHO, when AMD releases the Athlon 1933mhz, even the staunchest PR supporters won't be able to (rationally) justify it.

As I said, I made a lot of assumptions. But my chart also assumes no changes to the CPUs themselves and no limiting factors (ie, cache, memory bandwidth). I think AMD is closer to those limits than Intel is, but I also think that future improvements by AMD will make a larger difference in performance per clock. It will be interesting to see what happens, but if Intel and AMD can both make changes that keep up with the limiting factors of their CPUs, then that chart will hold mostly true.

Also, I personally think that a 1933mhz Athlon XP will still perform on par with a 2.4B P4. The 1800mhz XP is pretty darn close, and that 133mhz increase should bring it those last few benchmark points. After that we should start to see Barton chips. I think it is far too soon (and there are far too many unknowns) to say whether or not the rating system will hold or not.