SunnyD
Belgian Waffler
Off Topic: Sometimes it makes you wonder whether the entire forum itself needs a timeout. There's nearly no other subforum here quite like Video. It's like watching gang riots in LA.
Sorry about the off topic comment, but that's pretty much all this thread has become useful for now.
Oh yeah I'm not by any means questioning whether the content of your posts were valid or necessary, I don't pretend to understand enough of what is going on in this thread to pass any manner of judgment.
Was just more saying as a casual observer that it does look ugly to someone who "walks in off the street" to poke their nose into a thread like this and then "kapow!" they see some real beatings (justified or not) coming thru the poster avatar of a mod. Not that it seeing it from a non-mod poster is any less striking.
And not that you were posting as a mod, everyone gets that, except potential new members to the site who don't fully understand the rules around here. For them its just shock and awe at what goes down. I hope they don't get the wrong impression and decide to keep on walking. New blood is good, healthy for an evolving site. But maybe use the woodshed, its out back, out of plain view by the people on the street, and for gods sake use the good rubber hoses on the bottom of his feet this time. :laugh:
So if the developers implement the multisample readback via DX10.1, do the NV drivers automatically "replace" that functionality via nvapi? Because if they don't, then nvapi is essentially useless unless the developer explicitly codes an alternative implementation with it.
Nemesis 1
Lifer
- Dec 30, 2006
- 11,366
- 2
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Ok . I see. I am on differant train of thought I believe.
I know. We Know NV is eyeballing the Hand held market. This is were I believe Open CL will have the biggest Impact. Right Now we have a few companies contending heavily for the SOC market . Arm / Atom would SEEM to have leg up. But NV isn't only player Looking hard at hand helds Intel/ Apple/ Imagination powerVR/ ARM /NV.
In the SOC even tho its not smart to count NV out . NV lost any hopes of making deal with Intel on SOC . Since Atom soon will be completely self supporting unit . The only graphics going on will be Intels or Power VR. Intel did leave door open for NV . Which I am sure they had to . NV can do contract with TSMC to do Tegra on Atom SOC . So NV isn't locked out.
But I got to say NV tegra better be really good if it hopes to compete with Power VR multi=core chip. We don't need to Be fan boyish about this tech . If it works as advertized i in the handheld segment. If it Scales higher its Good in any segment . Just have to compare all when released.
But thats my confusion on this subject . I believe most you guys are looking at just the top end performance aspects . I am looking right straight at Apple . Watching what their up to . I love open CL but I think its real valvue short term will be in hand helds .
If you look at The new power VR specs and keep in mind its hand held SOC were talking about its a monster chip . If NVs is better good for NV better for us. But I NOT counting Power VR out of very near future revolution.
What apple does with the Bigger performance systems as far as graphics in 2010 . I don't really care . My eyes are glued to the hand held market. This is were the action will be in 2010
Well, not entirely automatically.
The developer has to use the NVAPI to call "EnablePartialDX10.1Support()" or whatever it was called.
After that, you can create a DX10.1 device on an nVidia card (D3D10CreateDevice1() will not fail).
Then the multisample readback will simply work as expected.
What makes you say that?
GPGPU is mostly used for things like physics, video encoding, and scientific purposes (eg Folding@Home or whatever the compute centers at the universities do).
I don't really see what GPGPU has to do with handhelds. You're not going to use a handheld for high-performance computing.
So can you tell me what one would use OpenCL for on a handheld? I can't see any use.
Aside from that, handhelds are only one part of what Apple does.
Nemesis 1
Lifer
- Dec 30, 2006
- 11,366
- 2
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Were better to use the gpgpu than in a low power handheld. As I said read about the chip it is a GPGPU. If you can't see the value of that in a hand held . How can you see the value at the high end . Your a smart guy. Please promote PX if you desire but not at expense of other tech . Cuda is here Now . PX is here now . So what . Right now its kinda sucky. PX isn't the only future. You guys really should look at were the market is moving . Arm getting much stronger also . All these chips will take advantage of open CL . Were its going to be most notice able on Snow. It won't matter whos graphics are used. As long as open CL works on hardware . Its going to shine in APPLE country First. So Apple will be in drivers chair for a short time . Lets see what happens. Apple has always been behind MS in a few things . But Billy did steal fromApple and got away with it.
It funny Apple OSX . Because of small install base. Apple made snow what it should have been long ago . Native 64 bit. For Intel. Apples whole OSX is designed around Intel cpus. Yet at the same time its not . Apple . Jobs is smart. MS is trying to add Snow features but Apple has a big jump . Grand central is incrediable. Apple is Fast moving apps into the open CL standard . Because of apples small base there more nimble about stepping on backwards combatability. As Far as Ms going a boot camp type deal with Windows 7 and Xp . Go back read poster remarks on Apples boot camp . Many talk from differant sides of mouth when referring to MS boot camp comparred to Apple boot camp.
It funny Apple OSX . Because of small install base. Apple made snow what it should have been long ago . Native 64 bit. For Intel. Apples whole OSX is designed around Intel cpus. Yet at the same time its not . Apple . Jobs is smart. MS is trying to add Snow features but Apple has a big jump . Grand central is incrediable. Apple is Fast moving apps into the open CL standard . Because of apples small base there more nimble about stepping on backwards combatability. As Far as Ms going a boot camp type deal with Windows 7 and Xp . Go back read poster remarks on Apples boot camp . Many talk from differant sides of mouth when referring to MS boot camp comparred to Apple boot camp.
Thing is, a GPGPU is not useful for most tasks. Only for parallel tasks. I don't know of many applications for handhelds that rely on parallel tasks.
Why don't you name some actual tasks then, because as I already said, I can't think of any.
Modelworks
Lifer
- Feb 22, 2007
- 16,240
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- 76
Very true.
One of my favorite chips to work with is OMAP3530, I grabbed one of the beagleboard development kits. It is crazy how much power this thing has all in one chip.
Arm cpu at 600Mhz, OpenGL with 10 million poly output and a TI DSP running at 430Mhz. Along with 2Gb NAND x 16 (256MB), 2Gb MDDR SDRAM x32 (256MB @ 166MHz) all in one SOC.
Nemesis 1
Lifer
- Dec 30, 2006
- 11,366
- 2
- 0
Your being silly now. knock it off . Cause ya know better than that/ physics / raytracing parrellel programming all part of the hand held future . You know Power VR has a monster chip in the SOC sectors maybe even in the discrete sector time will tell. So you playing that down . This is were the true action will be for open cl. For you to imply physics and raytracing and parrellel programming as not being important is alarming. In the Hand held section. Maybe mods should look at your intent in this thread . Know offense but to me it appears to me your marketing. Why so closed minded.
I'm not putting anything down. Now I don't know about what PowerVR is working on currently, but I've always been a fan of PowerVR, and especially their tile-based deferred rendering. I've owned a PowerVR PCX2 card, and also a Kyro II, and ofcourse the DreamCast. I wouldn't think of putting them down, they've always been a very innovative company, with some good products.
Thing is, even on desktop systems, GPGPU only has very limited applications to me.
Handhelds would be even more limited I would think. You don't work with a handheld in the office all day. You want a proper workplace.
I'm not trying to be close-minded, I honestly ask you why you think GPGPU will be big on handhelds.
Okay, so you now mentioned physics and raytracing... Well, that would imply things like gaming and offline-rendering I suppose. But that is not what most people use their handhelds for, is it? That's my point. OpenCL may make it *possible* to do all these things on a handheld, but is it actually something that people want? I'm not arguing that GPGPUs in handhelds wouldn't be able to do the same as desktop devices (albeit slower), but I just think that many of these tasks are pretty much inherently desktop-related, not something people want to use a small portable device for.
And don't start on talking marketing or my intentions in this thread.
The way your posts read, Apple's handhelds are the only thing on the planet, almost literally. You completely ignore the desktop market, while this thread is very explicitly about Cuda+PhysX, which is currently only available on the desktop.
Nemesis 1
Lifer
- Dec 30, 2006
- 11,366
- 2
- 0
Well you should know what I am referring to . Here is info. If you don't believe that open cl is going to be hugh on this device. I just don't know what to say . Were talking SOC here . Massive power potencial here.
16 March 2009
Imagination Technologies launches advanced, highly-efficient POWERVR? SGX543MP multi-processor graphics IP family
Truly scalable multi-processing graphics technology offers ?super-high? performance points extending POWERVR?s market reach into new segments
Imagination Technologies, the multimedia chip technologies company, announces further details of the first POWERVR SGX graphics IP core with multi-processor (MP) core support. The technology, henceforth POWERVR SGX543MP, is being delivered to customers in SGXMP2 (two-core) to SGXMP16 (16-core) variants.
With the POWERVR SGX543MP family Imagination continues to extend its leadership of the embedded graphics acceleration market with blistering POWERVR solutions which address the rapidly growing demands for high performance graphics in a wide range of consumer electronics segments.
Imagination?s graphics IP cores now range from SGX520, the world?s smallest OpenGL? ES 2.0 mobile core, to SGX543MP16 for high-performance console and computing devices.
Some of the innovative technology behind POWERVR SGX543MP is being revealed in a keynote presentation at the 4th annual Multicore Expo (March 16 - 19 2009, Santa Clara, USA.)
Tony King-Smith, VP marketing Imagination Technologies says: ?The performance delivered by our latest POWERVR SGX543MP family is the ultimate statement of the highly linear scalability of our unique Series5XT architecture. With the ability to combine up to 16 SGX543 GP-GPU* cores on a single SoC, we are now able to deliver capabilities to our licensing partners previously only thought the domain of the discrete GPU chipset vendors, while maintaining our unrivalled power, area and bandwidth efficiency.?
One of the unique features of the recently announced POWERVR Series5XT architecture is that it enables highly linear scaling of all aspects of GPU performance, specifically vertex shading, pixel shading, primitive setup and overall GP-GPU functionality, whilst maintaining full software compatibility and with virtually no overhead in bandwidth usage.
The POWERVR SGX543MP family enables up to sixteen cores of POWERVR SGX543 programmable GP-GPU logic to be integrated in a high performance, multi-processor graphics solution without performance or silicon area compromises. Taking the already high-performance four-pipe POWERVR SGX543, and then scaling that performance up to between eight and 64 pipelines, POWERVR SGX543MP delivers performance comparable to many desktops, laptops and games consoles.
At 200MHz core frequency an SGX543MP4 (four cores) will deliver 133 million polygons per second and fill rates in excess of 4Gpixels/sec**. Higher frequencies or a larger number of cores each deliver more performance. At 400MHz core frequency an SGX543MP8 (eight cores) will deliver 532 million polygons per second and fill rates in excess of 16Gpixels/sec.
POWERVR SGX543MP features:
maintains the highest performance per mW of any embedded graphics core, a key benefit of POWERVR SGX
highly linear scaling (over 95% efficiency) of performance in both geometry (vertex processing) and rasterisation (pixel/fragment processing)
dynamic load balancing and on-demand task allocation at the pipeline level
no fixed allocation of given pixels to specific cores, enabling maximum processing power to be allocated to the areas of highest on-screen action
scalable GP-GPU compute power, which can be fully utilised through all Khronos APIs including OpenGL ES 2.x, OpenVG? 1.x and OpenCL?
use any number of cores from 2-16, even or odd
no additional work for software developers; using one driver stack for all SGX cores means applications see a common SGX architecture via the standard APIs regardless of number of cores used
no additional CPU load when using multiple cores or loss of performance
Continues King-Smith: ?This multi-core extension to the scalability of the POWERVR SGX architecture, beyond the existing POWERVR SGX520 and SGX53x and 54x families, takes our highly efficient technology into new market segments. Additionally the leading and ever-growing ecosystem of POWERVR Insider, which is of great value to our licensing partners and their OEM customers, will both benefit from, and further develop with, this significant expansion of the family.?
Inside POWERVR SGX543MP
The highly efficient POWEVR SGX543MP family delivers linear progression in vertex and pixel processing performance, unlike competitive solutions which scale only pixel performance. An SGX543MP2 delivers effectively twice the performance of a single SGX543 without compromise. And for a given workload the same bandwidth is required no matter how many cores are deployed ? SGX543MP delivers faster performance by dividing the work on ?demand, dynamically load balanced in parallel between cores.
The POWERVR Series5XT architecture builds on the highly efficient Series5 architecture, which ensures that maximum performance is achieved across a wide range of applications, regardless of whether the content is dominated by polygon throughput, pixel processing, high fill rate or any combination of these. Other architectures that use separate polygon and pixel processing units cannot achieve the sustained throughput or silicon utilisation of POWERVR SGX graphics cores.
Part of POWERVR Series5XT, USSE2 (Universal Scalable Shader Engine2), the main programmable processing unit within each POWERVR SGX543 pipeline, incorporates a major upgrade of the data path to deliver vastly improved vector processing performance and overall throughput. This datapath upgrade is one of the key reasons why SGX543 delivers up to 2x the performance for ?vector-heavy? applications compared to earlier POWERVR SGX cores
USSE2 is a scalable multi-threaded GPU shader processing engine that efficiently processes graphics as well as many other mathematically-intensive tasks. These tasks are automatically broken down into processing packets which are then scheduled across a number of hardware multi-threaded execution units for maximum processing efficiency.
Editor?s Notes
* GP-GPU stands for General-Purpose computation on Graphics Processing Units.
** All fill rate figures stated assuming a scene depth complexity of x2.5
About Imagination Technologies
Imagination Technologies Group plc (LSE:IMG) ? a global leader in multimedia and communication silicon technologies ? creates and licenses market-leading processor cores for graphics, video, multi-threaded embedded processing/DSP and multi-standard communications applications. These silicon intellectual property (IP) solutions for systems-on-chip (SoC) are complemented by strong array of software tools and drivers as well as extensive developer and middleware ecosystems. Target markets include mobile phone, handheld multimedia, home consumer entertainment, mobile and low-power computing, and in-car electronics. Its licensees include many of the leading semiconductor and consumer electronics companies. Imagination has corporate headquarters in the United Kingdom, with sales and R&D offices worldwide. See: www.imgtec.com.
16 March 2009
Imagination Technologies launches advanced, highly-efficient POWERVR? SGX543MP multi-processor graphics IP family
Truly scalable multi-processing graphics technology offers ?super-high? performance points extending POWERVR?s market reach into new segments
Imagination Technologies, the multimedia chip technologies company, announces further details of the first POWERVR SGX graphics IP core with multi-processor (MP) core support. The technology, henceforth POWERVR SGX543MP, is being delivered to customers in SGXMP2 (two-core) to SGXMP16 (16-core) variants.
With the POWERVR SGX543MP family Imagination continues to extend its leadership of the embedded graphics acceleration market with blistering POWERVR solutions which address the rapidly growing demands for high performance graphics in a wide range of consumer electronics segments.
Imagination?s graphics IP cores now range from SGX520, the world?s smallest OpenGL? ES 2.0 mobile core, to SGX543MP16 for high-performance console and computing devices.
Some of the innovative technology behind POWERVR SGX543MP is being revealed in a keynote presentation at the 4th annual Multicore Expo (March 16 - 19 2009, Santa Clara, USA.)
Tony King-Smith, VP marketing Imagination Technologies says: ?The performance delivered by our latest POWERVR SGX543MP family is the ultimate statement of the highly linear scalability of our unique Series5XT architecture. With the ability to combine up to 16 SGX543 GP-GPU* cores on a single SoC, we are now able to deliver capabilities to our licensing partners previously only thought the domain of the discrete GPU chipset vendors, while maintaining our unrivalled power, area and bandwidth efficiency.?
One of the unique features of the recently announced POWERVR Series5XT architecture is that it enables highly linear scaling of all aspects of GPU performance, specifically vertex shading, pixel shading, primitive setup and overall GP-GPU functionality, whilst maintaining full software compatibility and with virtually no overhead in bandwidth usage.
The POWERVR SGX543MP family enables up to sixteen cores of POWERVR SGX543 programmable GP-GPU logic to be integrated in a high performance, multi-processor graphics solution without performance or silicon area compromises. Taking the already high-performance four-pipe POWERVR SGX543, and then scaling that performance up to between eight and 64 pipelines, POWERVR SGX543MP delivers performance comparable to many desktops, laptops and games consoles.
At 200MHz core frequency an SGX543MP4 (four cores) will deliver 133 million polygons per second and fill rates in excess of 4Gpixels/sec**. Higher frequencies or a larger number of cores each deliver more performance. At 400MHz core frequency an SGX543MP8 (eight cores) will deliver 532 million polygons per second and fill rates in excess of 16Gpixels/sec.
POWERVR SGX543MP features:
maintains the highest performance per mW of any embedded graphics core, a key benefit of POWERVR SGX
highly linear scaling (over 95% efficiency) of performance in both geometry (vertex processing) and rasterisation (pixel/fragment processing)
dynamic load balancing and on-demand task allocation at the pipeline level
no fixed allocation of given pixels to specific cores, enabling maximum processing power to be allocated to the areas of highest on-screen action
scalable GP-GPU compute power, which can be fully utilised through all Khronos APIs including OpenGL ES 2.x, OpenVG? 1.x and OpenCL?
use any number of cores from 2-16, even or odd
no additional work for software developers; using one driver stack for all SGX cores means applications see a common SGX architecture via the standard APIs regardless of number of cores used
no additional CPU load when using multiple cores or loss of performance
Continues King-Smith: ?This multi-core extension to the scalability of the POWERVR SGX architecture, beyond the existing POWERVR SGX520 and SGX53x and 54x families, takes our highly efficient technology into new market segments. Additionally the leading and ever-growing ecosystem of POWERVR Insider, which is of great value to our licensing partners and their OEM customers, will both benefit from, and further develop with, this significant expansion of the family.?
Inside POWERVR SGX543MP
The highly efficient POWEVR SGX543MP family delivers linear progression in vertex and pixel processing performance, unlike competitive solutions which scale only pixel performance. An SGX543MP2 delivers effectively twice the performance of a single SGX543 without compromise. And for a given workload the same bandwidth is required no matter how many cores are deployed ? SGX543MP delivers faster performance by dividing the work on ?demand, dynamically load balanced in parallel between cores.
The POWERVR Series5XT architecture builds on the highly efficient Series5 architecture, which ensures that maximum performance is achieved across a wide range of applications, regardless of whether the content is dominated by polygon throughput, pixel processing, high fill rate or any combination of these. Other architectures that use separate polygon and pixel processing units cannot achieve the sustained throughput or silicon utilisation of POWERVR SGX graphics cores.
Part of POWERVR Series5XT, USSE2 (Universal Scalable Shader Engine2), the main programmable processing unit within each POWERVR SGX543 pipeline, incorporates a major upgrade of the data path to deliver vastly improved vector processing performance and overall throughput. This datapath upgrade is one of the key reasons why SGX543 delivers up to 2x the performance for ?vector-heavy? applications compared to earlier POWERVR SGX cores
USSE2 is a scalable multi-threaded GPU shader processing engine that efficiently processes graphics as well as many other mathematically-intensive tasks. These tasks are automatically broken down into processing packets which are then scheduled across a number of hardware multi-threaded execution units for maximum processing efficiency.
Editor?s Notes
* GP-GPU stands for General-Purpose computation on Graphics Processing Units.
** All fill rate figures stated assuming a scene depth complexity of x2.5
About Imagination Technologies
Imagination Technologies Group plc (LSE:IMG) ? a global leader in multimedia and communication silicon technologies ? creates and licenses market-leading processor cores for graphics, video, multi-threaded embedded processing/DSP and multi-standard communications applications. These silicon intellectual property (IP) solutions for systems-on-chip (SoC) are complemented by strong array of software tools and drivers as well as extensive developer and middleware ecosystems. Target markets include mobile phone, handheld multimedia, home consumer entertainment, mobile and low-power computing, and in-car electronics. Its licensees include many of the leading semiconductor and consumer electronics companies. Imagination has corporate headquarters in the United Kingdom, with sales and R&D offices worldwide. See: www.imgtec.com.
Modelworks
Lifer
- Feb 22, 2007
- 16,240
- 7
- 76
The Ti SOC I mentioned earlier has an integrated POWERVR SGX that does the graphics. CPU,DSP, GPU , RAM, all in a chip the size of a thumbnail, and cheap.
This is the Ti page on it:
http://focus.ti.com/docs/prod/...rs/print/omap3530.html
with development tools like the beagle board selling for $149 it is going to be a hit.
Nemesis 1
Lifer
- Dec 30, 2006
- 11,366
- 2
- 0
Scali Its ashame to me. that you work in tech.
I was born in 51. We had comic books to read. And all these future gismos. Well alot of that future is here now. But ya see . I want my dam dick tracy watch . Open CL will bring that vision. at 22nm . maybe 32nm. I just can't believe for future you would believe BIG will out pace small . Kinda Captain cave man thinking to me.
I was born in 51. We had comic books to read. And all these future gismos. Well alot of that future is here now. But ya see . I want my dam dick tracy watch . Open CL will bring that vision. at 22nm . maybe 32nm. I just can't believe for future you would believe BIG will out pace small . Kinda Captain cave man thinking to me.
Nemesis 1
Lifer
- Dec 30, 2006
- 11,366
- 2
- 0
Your the guy with all the ans. You tell us if i was talking about NV . You would show a million reason why tegra is hugh. But tegra no match for VR. You guys all been schooled the same I see . Very good confusing issue , Anything that Open CL brings it brings =% value for all segments. Because the handheld segment is hugh and growing fastest . and many many companies are playing the game . Many programms. Most being done with C/C++. This is important . Apple Intel Power VR have Really targeted this segment for compatability. Bad for MS. Good for everyone else> Intels compilers will make there job easy. This whole argument about PX is nothing but marketing .
Thats why scali showed. His expertize. Until we have OS with open cl this should be maybe a closed subject. Not Px . But Cuda Vs Same as open CL . lets see were chips fall. As for as DX10.1 NV is Ducking the issue. They also used there powers to stop game developers from using more.
Thats why scali showed. His expertize. Until we have OS with open cl this should be maybe a closed subject. Not Px . But Cuda Vs Same as open CL . lets see were chips fall. As for as DX10.1 NV is Ducking the issue. They also used there powers to stop game developers from using more.
Originally posted by: Scali
Yep, that's marketing alright
You just pasted a complete press release.
Scali I know my unsolicited opinion don't mean dick, nor should it, to you but IMO you do yourself a disservice if you dismiss everything Nemesis brings to the table here.
Sure they aren't easy to interpret or digest, but his posts over time do paint a consistent cohesive picture of a plausible future. It may never happen, but it doesn't hurt to contemplate the possibility or the ramifications of a future as Nemesis likes to paint it.
(note, you do have to turn a blind eye at times though to his opinions on the non-tech parts of the world...he's got some real doozies regarding IBM, the holocaust, and the Rothschild's)
I personally enjoy the mental exercises now, but I'll admit I spent a good solid year resisting and fighting with Nemesis over his attempts to suggest the world might possibly be different than how I just knew it had to be.
At any rate he's like the borg, relentless and impervious to all forms of rebuttal. (I'm trying to be kind Nemesis, don't hate the messenger) I'm sorry to tell you that your post above was simply an exercise in wasting your time and reducing the remaining lifespan of your keyboard. :laugh:
At any rate I see you are well down the path of butting heads with him by your most recent post, good luck with that and have a good year, I hope it ends quicker for you than mine did :thumbsup:
I'm not even dismissing anything!
My point is that he is saying that handhelds are going to become very important.
Well maybe, I don't know. Doesn't matter.
But he's saying that OpenCL is going to be the thing that makes handhelds big.
I'm not seeing that. I've been trying to ask him what kind of applications you'd run on handhelds with OpenCL, but he keeps dodging the question.
I just don't see what OpenCL has to do with handhelds. Yea, handhelds will be able to run OpenCL, so? I still see most applications running with standard code. Just like people with an nVidia GPU aren't suddenly running everything with Cuda.
Why not? Because GPGPU is a very specific solution, which only works on a small subset of problems, namely the well-parallelizable problems.
Most applications can't be parallelized well at all (which is why dualcores and quadcores aren't such a big hit as people hoped for), and GPGPU is that same problem but WAY WAY bigger (we're not talking about 2 or 4 threads in parallel, but hundreds).
So if he thinks OpenCL is going to be important in handheld devices, that means he thinks that parallelizable problems will be important on handheld devices. But I can't think of anything that is parallelizable AND something you want on a handheld device.
Even for the desktop or workstation, the number of parallelizable problems are quite small...
What annoys me is that instead of answering my simple question, he rants on like a lunatic about nVidia, Tegra and whatever.
Who cares? PowerVR or Tegra or whatever other chip you can put into a handheld device and run OpenCL on... WHAT are you going to run on it? I don't see it!
As far as I can see it, OpenCL on a handheld is a solution without a problem.
CUDA is already on the Ion platform, because they have lousy CPUs and need all the help they can get.
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