Indian Prime Minister Against Raising Indian Flag in India!

[davmat787]

@Raghu & Baasha: Thank you both for taking the time to share your views on India and its future. My question is: In India, is the caste system specific to one religion? In other words, are the untouchables only Hindu or Muslim? Is the caste system only followed by Hindu's?

Thank you!

 

[The Green Bean]

@Raghu & Baasha: Thank you both for taking the time to share your views on India and its future. My question is: In India, is the caste system specific to one religion? In other words, are the untouchables only Hindu or Muslim? Is the caste system only followed by Hindu's?

Thank you!

The caste system is followed only by Hindus and many untouchables have converted to Islam to rise in the social ladder. However, there is social conflict between Hindus and Muslims. For example, my friends and family who live in Mumbai find it hard to find apartments in Malabar Hill because the societies don't want Muslims. Some cities have areas which are divided on the lines of religion. Bias also exists in the job market. Therefore, while Muslims may be considered above untouchables, a Brahmin would be favoured for a job/house. Social bias exists in all societies, but I think more so in India. In fact, Pakistan was only created because Muslims feared bias.

 

[piasabird]

Just another peaceful democratic demonstration.

 

[busydude]

As a US citizen, it would be great to buy a lot of the manufactured consumer type goods with a made in India sticker, rather than made in China. Do you guys see any chance of India becoming a manufacturing power in 10-15 years? The labor is certainly available, and I assume an increasing manufacturing sector in India would be beneficial to the lower and middle classes in India as well.

All the usual nonsense(in this thread) aside, before India sees itself as a manufacturing power that caters to the world's needs, it first needs to cater to the demand internally.

India, unlike China, is not an export driven market.. there is huge supply demand discrepancies inside the country itself. Most of the manufacturing facilities which are setup in India are meant for local consumption. If you look at it, although majority of the country is poor, there is no shortage of people who are wiling to buy new and expensive products.. I would even argue that Indians are more materialistic than the west.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_largest_trading_partners_of_India

Keep in mind I have no background in economics.. I am just listing my personal opinions. Now that majority of the market has been opened up.. the only major hurdle in having everything setup is the lack of infrastructure and the way things are administered.

For example, 10-12 years back Intel was planning to build a fabrication facility in India.. but the government did not show any interest in that.. and could not provide sufficient incentives and the required infrastructure for that facility.. as a result Intel backed out and setup that facility in Israel, IIRC.

Manufacturing industries have proven to make a nation rich and stable, and in 10-15 years.. I see manufacturing growing at 10% annually.. and demand for goods growing even more.. but just as it is today, export of manufacturing goods is going to be confined to a niche market.

The development has been slow when compared to China.. but it is more consistent IMO.

 

[davmat787]

The caste system is followed only by Hindus and many untouchables have converted to Islam to rise in the social ladder. However, there is social conflict between Hindus and Muslims. For example, my friends and family who live in Mumbai find it hard to find apartments in Malabar Hill because the societies don't want Muslims. Some cities have areas which are divided on the lines of religion. Bias also exists in the job market. Therefore, while Muslims may be considered above untouchables, a Brahmin would be favoured for a job/house. Social bias exists in all societies, but I think more so in India. In fact, Pakistan was only created because Muslims feared bias.

Thank you for the info. I have never been to India, but have worked with many in the tech industry and wished I would have asked more about the caste system. As a believer in self determination, I find it very sad from a very removed, and admittedly naive, point of view. I watched a documentary on the untouchables, and was left extremely sad and upset. However, I am sure there is more to this issue and other viewpoints than a 40 minute documentary provides.

Is there any chance the caste system will be abolished? Is there even support in India to remove the caste system? Sounds like it is very entrenched, but is this a result of the government or is it a religious/societal issue?

 

[busydude]

Is there any chance the caste system will be abolished?

Not even close.. its illegal to discriminate based on caste, but it does continue. Although.. things are improving at least in urban areas.

Sounds like it is very entrenched, but is this a result of the government or is it a religious/societal issue?

Caste is, as you said, entrenched in Hinduism. It a part of social structure.. and the idea was actually a noble one, caste based discrimination is not part of the idea. It was misused by the higher caste people to oppress the lower class. There was only a concept of different caste's.. no higher or lower, but gradually.. Brahmins(Priests) and Kshatriyas(Warriors) started misusing their rights and started discriminating based on caste.. they thought Farmers, cobblers, blacksmiths.. all belonged to lower castes.. and started segregating.

Now things are improving.. and considering that its has just been over 63 years since we got independence.. the attitude is changing pretty rapidly.. atleast in my generation.

 

[The Green Bean]

Is there any chance the caste system will be abolished? Is there even support in India to remove the caste system? Sounds like it is very entrenched, but is this a result of the government or is it a religious/societal issue?

It's not a legal issue or an issue in the government. It's an issue deeply entrenched in society. It is bad enough in the urban centres but to abolish it from the rural areas and from the minds of the people many years of active effort are required. However, just like any society, many political parties are pro-caste system. In essence, the want a return to the old Hindu ways. They are like pro-Taliban parties of Pakistan. Most of their demands are as absurd. For example, the Shiv Sena in Maharashtra wants every non-Marathi out of their state: ethnic cleansing.

 

[davmat787]

Thank you all for your insights, off to read up a bit on the history of the Caste system and Hindu. I am guessing the Hindu religions belief in reincarnation has something to do with it. I think I remember reading something along the of: "you be a good Hindu at your given caste, and in your next life you will move up to the next caste". Obviously a gross oversimplification, but does this sound familiar?

 

[Madwand1]

As a believer in self determination, I find it very sad from a very removed, and admittedly naive, point of view. I watched a documentary on the untouchables, and was left extremely sad and upset. However, I am sure there is more to this issue and other viewpoints than a 40 minute documentary provides.

Is there any chance the caste system will be abolished? Is there even support in India to remove the caste system? Sounds like it is very entrenched, but is this a result of the government or is it a religious/societal issue?

The caste system, like much in India, is truly ancient, so much so that its original form has been lost, and much of what is said about it subsequently is wrong. It's easy to come up with speculations on it, like speculations on reincarnation, and be just as wrong as any child on the subject -- the problem and process is pretty much the same.

The caste system, some say, was once not hereditary, but rather a division of skill development and labor, etc,. according to personality types and inclinations -- the individual in other words.

As it stands, what you see is the crumbling relic of something long past its best before date, clung to of course most by those most apparently advantaged by its trappings, and even formally illegal in parts.

 

[Baasha]

No, you are wrong again. It isnt taught in all govt. school. Govt. schools in Karnataka, TN, Kerala and few other states dont teach Hindhi. The move to enforce Hindhi is just another example of the effort to destroy diversity and discriminate against a certain section. As a native Hindhi speaker, Im glad this didnt succeed. When the Hindhi speaking morons found that it couldnt be done directly, the central govt. started using subtle but strong means to do it (IAS, Parliament .etc.).

Also, Im pretty sure Rajaji didnt call Indians collectively stupid. Nor are they individually brilliant.

Hindi is taught in every state except Tamil Nadu. Perhaps "some" schools don't.

And, I completely disagree with your ridiculous view that teaching the national language of India will somehow "erode" the local cultures/languages. Again, you must be part of the troupe that thinks teaching English to everyone in the US will erode Hispanic kids' cultures and languages and it should be optional. If you are in America, you should know English. If you're in India, you should know Hindi. Of course, English is the other option but as far as native languages are concerned, Hindi is the "main" language.

 

[Baasha]

@Raghu & Baasha: Thank you both for taking the time to share your views on India and its future. My question is: In India, is the caste system specific to one religion? In other words, are the untouchables only Hindu or Muslim? Is the caste system only followed by Hindu's?

Thank you!

The "caste system" is universal. It is spelled out in Hinduism because it is in nature. An "untouchable" is anyone who is adharmic (not following Dharma). If you're of low birth (not Indian and Hindu) and not part of the 4 castes (Brahmin (scholars/priests), Kshatriya (warriors/statesmen), Vaisya (merchants/businessmen), Shudra (laborers/servants)), you're technically an untouchable. This is why it is laughable when westerners think they are somehow "above" the caste system when they themselves are the untouchables they want to "protect". The "Indian" part seems strange but every Hindu in India, should be able to trace their lineage to the 7 sages of Aryavarta (ancient India). Anyone who falls outside of that is called a "mleccha" or barbarian/untouchable.

Caste is of two things: VARNA & JATI. The first is based purely on philosophical grounds and is derived from three things: lineage (birth), character, and action. None precludes the other. Jati is based on occupation and that is what is most prevalent in Indian society today. For example, farmers' children tend to become farmers. Doctors' children tend to go into medicine etc. etc. This is where it is universal.

When the two (Varna & Jati) are used interchangeably, it is highly dangerous and can lead to severe discrimination and ill-treatment of others. This has what has happened for the past 200 years in India. So-called "high caste" people used their "high" birth to legitimize ill-treatment and denial of opportunity.

Caste is highly misunderstood by most people and interestingly, MadWand1 has touched upon it somewhat accurately. Obviously, he has read a bit about Hinduism (?).

One thing that has to be made absolutely clear is that people who convert to Islam and Christianity have NOT escaped discrimination by Muslims and Christians. In fact, there are a lot of Muslim and Christian "Dalits" (untouchables) who are not allowed to mingle with others in that society. The anti-Hindus will clearly leave that important fact out of the picture.

In fact, Muslims have a severe "caste" system within their own "brotherly" religion. Muslims from the subcontinent are treated like trash during the Hajj pilgrimage in Mecca by Saudi Muslims who fancy themselves "closest" to Muhammad. In fact, Pakistani Muslims look down on Indian Muslims and actually call them "ajlaf" (converts into Islam) while they think of themselves as "ashraf" (supposed foreign ancestry). In fact, this was one of the biggest reasons Bangladesh (used to be East Pakistan) didn't get along with West Pakistan because of this attitude as well as language (Urdu vs. Bengali).

For more on Islamic "caste", look here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_system_among_South_Asian_Muslims

And, for discrimination against Christians converts (Dalit Christians), look here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalit_Christians

The proper name for "caste" is Varnashrama Dharma. Gandhi himself supported it. That shows that it was most certainly NOT to divide people but to make people realize their true potential and strengths and work for the betterment of the society as a whole. It is the antipode of individualistic thinking as that is the basis of Hinduism; realization that the ego (individual "I-ness") is false (impermanent) and that the real "I" or Self is non-different to the unmanifest reality [Brahman or GOD].

Jati is followed by everyone around the world. Varna is more complex but it is also universal.

 

[Baasha]

Thank you for the info. I have never been to India, but have worked with many in the tech industry and wished I would have asked more about the caste system. As a believer in self determination, I find it very sad from a very removed, and admittedly naive, point of view. I watched a documentary on the untouchables, and was left extremely sad and upset. However, I am sure there is more to this issue and other viewpoints than a 40 minute documentary provides.

Westerners like to think the rest of the world needs to be "saved". The sad part is, the rest of the world needs to be saved from them! Any and all "documentaries" on caste are made by virulent anti-Hindus and India-bashers. Remember, India/Hinduism is the ONLY country on this planet that has preserved its traditions and (native) cultures from thousands of years ago to this day! Every other culture/people has been destroyed utterly by Islam/Christianity/Communism. The old cultures have given way to exclusive ideologies, jingoism, rampant consumerism, and utterly selfish mindsets and so India is the last bastion of *true* freedom.

If you do some research, you would find it quite strange that most so-called "scholars" of Hinduism and self-proclaimed India "experts" are westerners in the US and Europe. That is like getting the Taliban to teach and opine on US policy and history! Of course, when I bring this to their (limited) attention, they brand me 'Hindu fundamentalist'! LOL...

Untouchability is only an issue when it comes to religious studies and marriage. When castes intermarry, there is often conflict because it isn't two individuals getting married, it's two families. Usually, the children are, or should I say, should be, educated enough to know what is best for them, their family, and ultimately, the society at large. Selfish mentalities that focus only on the individual are disastrous in the long run. Varnashrama is about self-abnegation. For westerners, this is the biggest "block" if you will. Wherever the ego is very large, to understand that you, ultimately your idea of you (body-mind complex), is utterly insignificant is a tremendous shock for those who are brought up thinking "they" are the center of the world and even GOD, whatever one may imagine it to be, is going to "save" 'them'!

Is there any chance the caste system will be abolished? Is there even support in India to remove the caste system? Sounds like it is very entrenched, but is this a result of the government or is it a religious/societal issue?

Discrimination based on caste has already been outlawed. Caste is natural so it can never "be" abolished. Just like saying get rid of race to end racism! Valiant effort but futile in the long run.

 

[Baasha]

The caste system, like much in India, is truly ancient, so much so that its original form has been lost, and much of what is said about it subsequently is wrong.

Much of what is stated about it, by untouchables, is definitely wrong.

And, the original "form" has not been lost. It has been misused for more than a century. Yet, there are still small communities within India living according to the principles of Dharma and maintain caste purity and are self-sufficient. They don't discriminate and don't look to meddle in others' affairs.

 

[Baasha]

It's not a legal issue or an issue in the government. It's an issue deeply entrenched in society. It is bad enough in the urban centres but to abolish it from the rural areas and from the minds of the people many years of active effort are required. However, just like any society, many political parties are pro-caste system. In essence, the want a return to the old Hindu ways. They are like pro-Taliban parties of Pakistan.

No Hindu wants to ever "convert" others or kill others. Unless attacked, provoked, and instigated, Hindus don't attack. Of course, as a Pakistani, you probably think Hindus committed the terrorist attack in Mumbai in 2008!

Most of their demands are as absurd. For example, the Shiv Sena in Maharashtra wants every non-Marathi out of their state: ethnic cleansing.

Strangely, I agree with you regarding teh Shiv Sena idiots. In fact, "Raghu" wants these kind of people to "preserve" their cultural and linguistic diversity!

The Shiv Sena threatened politicians because they made announcements in Hindi and not in Marathi! LOL...Cultural diversity indeed..

 

[Raghu]

Hindi is taught in every state except Tamil Nadu. Perhaps "some" schools don't.

And, I completely disagree with your ridiculous view that teaching the national language of India will somehow "erode" the local cultures/languages. Again, you must be part of the troupe that thinks teaching English to everyone in the US will erode Hispanic kids' cultures and languages and it should be optional. If you are in America, you should know English. If you're in India, you should know Hindi. Of course, English is the other option but as far as native languages are concerned, Hindi is the "main" language.

First get it into your retarded bird brain that Hindhi isnt the main language. Its spoken only by 40% of the population. Having studied in 3 different states in the country I can confirm that Hindhi is not compulsorily taught in states other than TamilNadu.

If the US has a single language as the basis of its formation, then there is no issue with enforcing English (just like Pakistan enforcing Muslim religion by making it tough for others). India was not formed on the basis of language.

Strangely, I agree with you regarding teh Shiv Sena idiots. In fact, "Raghu" wants these kind of people to "preserve" their cultural and linguistic diversity!

The Shiv Sena threatened politicians because they made announcements in Hindi and not in Marathi! LOL...Cultural diversity indeed..

Stop writing lies about what I said. People need to understand what the politicians say. Its just like Obama making announcements in French. Its ok for them to ask the politicians to make announcements in Marathi, because thats what the people speak in that state. ShivSena are idiots for asking non-Marathis to leave the state though. Every Indian citizen has the right to travel and work unrestricted across the country. Equally they also have the right to protect their own cultural and linguistic identities.

Caste system was introduced as a form of specialisation. They were just like guilds, except it was hereditary instead of through apprenticeship. This was because knowledge/expertise was expected to be passed through family ties. Somewhere down the line, castes became classified into upper and lower grades. Essentially certain forms of work became undignified and they became untouchables.

The govt. actively promotes caste based reservation and concessions as a measure to keep their voters happy. They dont have a roadmap/timeline of when they want to remove such discrimination.

 

[The Green Bean]

No Hindu wants to ever "convert" others or kill others. Unless attacked, provoked, and instigated, Hindus don't attack. Of course, as a Pakistani, you probably think Hindus committed the terrorist attack in Mumbai in 2008!

Strangely, I agree with you regarding teh Shiv Sena idiots. In fact, "Raghu" wants these kind of people to "preserve" their cultural and linguistic diversity!

The Shiv Sena threatened politicians because they made announcements in Hindi and not in Marathi! LOL...Cultural diversity indeed..

Shiv Sena is proof of this. They have repeatedly humiliated and even beaten up Pakistani actors such as Shakeel Siddiqui: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shakeel_Siddiqui

The Shiv Sena has also warned the Pakistani cricket team from playing the final. I think they should boycott playing any games in India since it is a serious security risk for them.

Also, Hindus are anything but peaceful. They have murdered millions of Muslims just like the Muslims have killed millions of Hindus. You are trying to show that only the Muslims are evil and Hindus have never been at fault in history. Hindus can no as aggressive as Muslims so please stop acting like an idiot.

 

[busydude]

Hindi is taught in every state except Tamil Nadu. Perhaps "some" schools don't.

Let me explain it to you the best way I could;

There are 3 main boards for secondary education(5th standard -10th standard):

• CBSE - Central Board of Secondary Education
• ICSE - Indian Certificate of Secondary Education
• State Board(Each state has its own board)

I studied the CBSE curriculum.. so let me explain how things work.

In CBSE, until the 5th class you have only 5 subjects: English(First Language), Math, Science, Social Studies, Second Language.

Now, you can choose from a selection of languages that you want to learn as a Second Language.. and Hindi is one of them, its not mandatory to select Hindi. In my case I chose Telugu as second language.

From 6th to 8th.. you have 6 subjects to study.. the 6th one is third language. You can choose the third language based on your preference and the availability of teachers for that language.. a lot of my friends chose Sanskrit.. I choose Hindi from a choice of Hindi, French, Arabic, Urdu, Italian and Spanish.

From 9th to 10th you are back to 5 subjects.. shedding the third language.. so in that period I was only taught Telugu.

Now replace Telugu with any local language such as Marathi, Gujarati, Bihari, Pahadi, etc.. and you can go by not taking Hindi and completing your secondary education.

ICSE: I have a few friends who did this.. but I am not exactly sure how the system works. My friend took Hindi and French as his languages.. none of them mandatory.

State Board: Varies from state to state, but the common system is this:

Similar to CBSE until 5th standard(Of course, the curriculum is way different).

6th -10th they have to learn 6 subjects which include 2nd and 3rd language, Hindi is not mandatory among them.

If you're in India, you should know Hindi.

I am sorry, but no.

 

[WelshBloke]

Couldnt you just move and lie about what caste you are? (not that you should have to)

 

[Raghu]

You typically need a caste certificate from a Govt. official for getting reservation. Many people pay bribes to get a fake certificate too.

Also some castes are given reservation in certain states and not in others.

@busydude, great explanation!

 

[The Green Bean]

You typically need a caste certificate from a Govt. official for getting reservation. Many people pay bribes to get a fake certificate too.

Also some castes are given reservation in certain states and not in others.

@busydude, great explanation!

So the racism in India is state sponsored?

 

[Raghu]

Yup, the Govt. sees reservations as a way to improve the quality of life of certain castes.

You can often find groups demanding that they be classified as Backward Castes so that they can enjoy the benefits.

 

[busydude]

So the racism in India is state sponsored?

Its not racism per se. But.. a way to compensate for the discrimination against lower castes. You can see that in the US too.. like there are a few benefits/reservations for the African American and Native Indians.

There was a proposal by the BJP.. to provide reservations based on the economic status of a family.. rather than the caste, but you know how slow things are with the govt.