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Braznor

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2005
3,961
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I question if India was ever going to be part of the west.

I have felt that Russia's way of doing business was far more compatible with the kick back oriented nature of India's politicians. The Russian's understand corruption, and it is a world they are better suited to navigate.

Western companies have to deal with laws against that sort of thing, and that makes it considerably more difficult for them to navigate around in a system like India where all of the policymakers are deeply corrupt.


I personally feel India will choose Russia this time around. Not because it is the best choice for India, but rather it is the best choice for policy makers looking to do business with a power familiar with hiding their corruption.


Yes.
If you could cite a few of the bribery charges committed under Modi's administration, then it would be nice.
 

Lost_in_the_HTTP

Diamond Member
Nov 17, 2019
6,341
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Until recent weeks I figured the Big Kaboomba Mushoomba would come from this area with two of the nuttiest nutball countries having their finger on the trigger.
 

Lost_in_the_HTTP

Diamond Member
Nov 17, 2019
6,341
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All that said, I've heard some music from there that's pretty darn good.

Like Israel, I don't think most of the people are as screwed up as their governments and leadership is.
 
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Braznor

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2005
3,961
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I didn't apologize to you! ;)

Actually sorry... I was at least partially out of line. (the Ganges really IS a mess!)

The Ganges – river of life, religion and waste (Geographical.UK)

You still don't get it, do you? All of this was never about Ganga. You insulted me and all Indians and yet you are apologizing to him for what? For revealing your true colors?

The Ganga river fact was never in dispute, unlike your crass language and crude thinking. But please don't worry, we Indians are pretty used to being hated by everyone.
 
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Braznor

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2005
3,961
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All that said, I've heard some music from there that's pretty darn good.

Like Israel, I don't think most of the people are as screwed up as their governments and leadership is.

Can you tell me why Modi's government is shitty or are you just basing that on hearsay?
 
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Captante

Lifer
Oct 20, 2003
23,032
5,095
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being hated by everyone

YOU certainly must be used to it. :p (and with good reason)

What that post actually meant was that the ONLY part of this I was on target about WAS the Ganges being polluted. (and I added a credible link) So the opposite of your nasty ASSumption. I have nothing against Indians or any other race for that matter but you really suck and its 100% your personality.

The reason I apologized was because I realized I was in the wrong and was being a dick ... a concept you really need to embrace.

But do have a NICE day! :D




*(pay special attention to the pride-part)



Can you tell me why Modi's government is shitty or are you just basing that on hearsay?

The same reasons Trump's government here in the US was garbage .... for a tool like you those are likely positives though.
 
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Braznor

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2005
3,961
91
106
YOU certainly must be used to it. :p (and with good reason)

What that post actually meant was that the ONLY part of this I was on target about WAS the Ganges being polluted. (and I added a credible link) So the opposite of your nasty ASSumption. I have nothing against Indians or any other race for that matter but you really suck and its 100% your personality.

The reason I apologized was because I realized I was in the wrong and was being a dick ... a concept you really need to embrace.

But do have a NICE day! :D




*(pay special attention to the pride-part)






The same reasons Trump's government here in the US was garbage .... for a tool like you those are likely positives though.
Wow, you really rolled everything into one package, haven't you? Preaching with Gandhi quotes, personal attacks and evasive hearsay on why Modi administration sucks. Tell me again, why should your opinions/preachings/insults be worth anything to me or to Indians for that matter? You already told us what India reminds you of.

I never claimed anything about Modi in my initial posts, but you and the rest of your hyena pack repeatedly slander everyone with hearsay. You are not getting off easy, stop your evasiveness and list reasons why the Modi administration sucks.

Or you can just admit it, you know next to nothing about India and you are just as narrow minded and ignorant as anyone in the extreme right can be.
 
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Atari2600

Golden Member
Nov 22, 2016
1,304
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If you could cite a few of the bribery charges committed under Modi's administration, then it would be nice.
Did anything ever come of this?



[I prob shouldn't go here, but sure....
In general, I find any Indians I have worked with to be some of the most polite and helpful people I've ever met. One or two exceptions of course, but you get that with any group, and Indians in my experience come out with a much better mix of good:bad than most!
My wife has visited several times, and loves the country and melting pot of cultures.
I've never been, I've little doubt I'll be on a holiday there at some point.]
 

R0H1T

Platinum Member
Jan 12, 2013
2,570
147
106
The same reasons Trump's government here in the US was garbage .... for a tool like you those are likely positives though.
Maybe for you but unlike Trump Modi's actually risen from abject poverty, selling tea, & gone on to win the elections of the most populous democracy in the world with little to no foreign divine intervention! For good or bad Trump is the poster child of privilege ~ Modi's the exact opposite, he's an OBC. Modi may not be a good man, I don't know him personally, but he's hardly Erdogan, Xi, Putin or any number of dictator level madman. He's more in the mold of your Mitch McConnel or Mitt Romney like shrewd politician. He was elected not because all the evil Hindus wanted to kill Muslims or transport them to Pakistan but because the previous govt had multiple scandals exposed regularly & had the one (Gandhi) family running the nation just based on their lineage for better part of 60 years! Muslims & other minorities also voted for him en masse on the agenda of development ~ which admittedly he hasn't delivered to the extent all of us were hoping for.

So when the rest of ignoramuses here claim India is still stuck in the past due to its caste system they'd do well to actually learn about the soon to be most populous nation in the world & possibly the second largest economy before the end of this century! I'm still against their reservations though & that's because the caste system isn't actually about caste but power or class based politics, much like the rest of the world.

I know lots of people from SC, ST, OBC who were born well off gotten govt subsidies to get into colleges & less marks than regular peers & are enjoying comfortable jobs in the private sector or the lifelong govt bureaucracy. Likewise I also know a lot of people from higher castes born into poverty & trying to meet ends day to day!

Corruption in India isn't a bigger problem than in China, Russia or the US & no I'm not normalizing it but when you see insider trading by your reps or lobbying groups directly/indirectly influencing policies at the highest level, or campaign funding do you really think the West is better than the rest of us? If you're still so deluded no wonder most of the US has no idea of what happens in their own backyard let alone the rest of the world. Yeah you could quantify corruption at a higher level in some nations, like India, but you'd have to be daft to think it's not a "major problem" in the West. Just because you like to see media trials for everything & watch too many Law & Order episodes, not to mention criminals like Trump getting away with petty theft, doesn't mean the rest of the world is keeping their eyes closed.
 
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R0H1T

Platinum Member
Jan 12, 2013
2,570
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106
America saw India being armed by Soviets and made one of the worst foreign policy mistakes by aligning with Pakistan and arming them. Can't blame their thinking at the time, because every Communist influence needed to be countered.
Can't blame them? Can't also blame them for installing the Shah in Iran, arming both sides in the Iraq/Iran war or how about the Mujaheddin (led) war in Afghanistan? I guess we'll just blame everything on the evil communists & forget that the US also did some really fucked up sh!t over the years which was at par or worse than USSR in some cases. While I can definitely agree the civil society in the US has been generally very good & also on the right side of history more often than not your govts have done more harm than most of you will ever admit or indeed how it's fucked up the entire world post WWII to the same extent, if not more, than USSR.
 
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pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
10,207
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Maybe for you but unlike Trump Modi's actually risen from abject poverty, selling tea, & gone on to win the elections of the most populous democracy in the world with little to no foreign divine intervention! For good or bad Trump is the poster child of privilege ~ Modi's the exact opposite, he's an OBC.
That's a fair point. It's complicated. Modi, for all his faults, marks a break with the domination of Indian politics by a few elite families.

It's interesting that historically India - and South and SE Asia generally - has had more women rulers than the US has ever managed. But that's partly because of that domination by elites - for much of that region, the way it seems to work is, when all the menfolk in a ruling family have been executed, or blown up or otherwise assasinated, a woman is acceptable, as long as they have the right family name.

It seems interesting that the US finally started to inch a bit closer to having a woman President at the same time as the country became more class-stratified, and its politics became increasingly dominated by a few elite families. It seems like a sad zero-sum game - gender equality improves as class inequality gets worse. And maybe the opposite also applies?
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
33,209
5,099
126
It sucks but what’s the alternative? What can the US do to help these countries?

Its hard to complain when there isn’t a viable solution.

What’s funny about this though is that Hillary Clinton and others saw this which was why they supported fracking and other cheap energy alternatives as opposed to buying oil from Russia. But people are so short sighted and aren’t versed enough in most subjects to understand the reality. Hell, to this day, people still talk Shit about gore and his alternative energy push. Just imagine where we and the world would be had we gone all in. Now imagine the future we’d be in if we listened to Carter and started down the alternative energy path back then.
First thing the US can do is get its head out its ass and legalize abortion. Get the dumb right to lifers something else to do with themselves. Over population is a major monkey wrench what with all our other problems. Regressive politics makes solving our major problems very difficult if not impossible.
 
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R0H1T

Platinum Member
Jan 12, 2013
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Then there's the issue of winning elections, tribalism & the non stop 24 hour media cycle. People want to associate themselves with a group, or a side, & usually when they do they don't listen to other side talk to them or hear the sane voices. When you read/listen to voices not aligned with some of your biases you tend to completely shut them off!
There's so much discourse today because both sides think they're always right & that the opposing side is always wrong.
It's also relevant to the US because you probably don't win elections these days without slinging constant sh!t on others. The voters choose a side & vote according to the message that rings close to their heart, they also tend to ignore some of the extreme or mixed messages the politicians give in their rallies. That's true for the vast majority of common people out there, not everyone is voting for Modi because he wants to make India a Hindu Rashtra. The vast majority just care about gas prices, food prices, employment, quality of life et al. I certainly don't have time for his (message about) religion in my life, nor does the guy selling tea in 45 degrees heat even if he prays five times a day & voted for Modi on the basis of development.
The media, politicians, the common man are all feeding into this vicious cycle of sensationism, tribalism & biases. Unless you're truly taking a neutral stance on a lot of these things or are willing to criticize your side, when they're wrong, you will always be a part of this miasma.

Lastly there's the issue of do as I say, not as I do ~
A lot of the left is just as guilty they claim the right to be on a number of subjects. When it comes to your wallet or your living space most people don't really care about others & their plight.

I voted for BJP but I don't follow religion nor do I care about any religious agenda, take it however you'd like to.
 
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Captante

Lifer
Oct 20, 2003
23,032
5,095
136
Wow, you really rolled everything into one package, haven't you? Preaching with Gandhi quotes, personal attacks and evasive hearsay on why Modi administration sucks. Tell me again, why should your opinions/preachings/insults be worth anything to me or to Indians for that matter? You already told us what India reminds you of.

I never claimed anything about Modi in my initial posts, but you and the rest of your hyena pack repeatedly slander everyone with hearsay. You are not getting off easy, stop your evasiveness and list reasons why the Modi administration sucks.

Or you can just admit it, you know next to nothing about India and you are just as narrow minded and ignorant as anyone in the extreme right can be.
You are an idiot and your opinion means less than zero to me.

Welcome to my ignore list... population: You. ;)
 
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Captante

Lifer
Oct 20, 2003
23,032
5,095
136
Maybe for you but unlike Trump Modi's actually risen from abject poverty, selling tea, & gone on to win the elections of the most populous democracy in the world with little to no foreign divine intervention! For good or bad Trump is the poster child of privilege ~ Modi's the exact opposite, he's an OBC. Modi may not be a good man, I don't know him personally, but he's hardly Erdogan, Xi, Putin or any number of dictator level madman. He's more in the mold of your Mitch McConnel or Mitt Romney like shrewd politician. He was elected not because all the evil Hindus wanted to kill Muslims or transport them to Pakistan but because the previous govt had multiple scandals exposed regularly & had the one (Gandhi) family running the nation just based on their lineage for better part of 60 years! Muslims & other minorities also voted for him en masse on the agenda of development ~ which admittedly he hasn't delivered to the extent all of us were hoping for.

So when the rest of ignoramuses here claim India is still stuck in the past due to its caste system they'd do well to actually learn about the soon to be most populous nation in the world & possibly the second largest economy before the end of this century! I'm still against their reservations though & that's because the caste system isn't actually about caste but power or class based politics, much like the rest of the world.

I know lots of people from SC, ST, OBC who were born well off gotten govt subsidies to get into colleges & less marks than regular peers & are enjoying comfortable jobs in the private sector or the lifelong govt bureaucracy. Likewise I also know a lot of people from higher castes born into poverty & trying to meet ends day to day!

Corruption in India isn't a bigger problem than in China, Russia or the US & no I'm not normalizing it but when you see insider trading by your reps or lobbying groups directly/indirectly influencing policies at the highest level, or campaign funding do you really think the West is better than the rest of us? If you're still so deluded no wonder most of the US has no idea of what happens in their own backyard let alone the rest of the world. Yeah you could quantify corruption at a higher level in some nations, like India, but you'd have to be daft to think it's not a "major problem" in the West. Just because you like to see media trials for everything & watch too many Law & Order episodes, not to mention criminals like Trump getting away with petty theft, doesn't mean the rest of the world is keeping their eyes closed.
TL: DR (sorry) ;)

Not in the mood to "understand" at the moment although I do appreciate the sincere effort ... nothing personal.
 
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Indus

Diamond Member
May 11, 2002
7,025
2,553
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You guys need to chill here.

America needs India for cheap meds and labor and India needs America for technology and food.

Don't think India is the country that's hell bent on invading other countries or threatening the US with missiles or terrorists.

It'll take a long time for any country to find alternatives to oil.. especially cheap oil and you can't just tell 5 times the population of the United States to stop using gasoline overnight.

Hell how much do we struggle to convince our own citizens that green is better?
 
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Braznor

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2005
3,961
91
106
You are an idiot and your opinion means less than zero to me.

Welcome to my ignore list... population: You. ;)

Whats the matter? Lost your appetite for preaching, haven't you?
So you are putting me on your ignore list. Thats just an excuse for you to weasel your way out of listing the failures of the Modi government.

Ha ha ha
 
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GodisanAtheist

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2006
3,932
2,474
136
Yeah wow this is a thread that I didn't expect to become as heated as it has.

India is a strange subject because its such a polarizing country. Its like a prism, you can look into it and see something different everytime you look because there are just so many people and so much history and so much everything crammed into a place that frankly has a smaller global influence than one would expect. Its also massive, borders a number of world players, and its somewhat diminished stature belies its geopolitical importance here in the west.

Frankly none of us on the outside, and likely many on the inside, of India are particularly well versed enough to discuss the topic at any sort of meaningful length.

I found the responses from (presumably) Indians living in India to be quite enlightening, important to remember as Americans that we barely can keep our domestic news straight, what hope do we have of the complex realities and internal politics of other nations, especially other large diverse parliamentary democracies.
 
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UNCjigga

Lifer
Dec 12, 2000
23,780
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Yeah wow this is a thread that I didn't expect to become as heated as it has.

India is a strange subject because its such a polarizing country. Its like a prism, you can look into it and see something different everytime you look because there are just so many people and so much history and so much everything crammed into a place that frankly has a smaller global influence than one would expect. Its also massive, borders a number of world players, and its somewhat diminished stature belies its geopolitical importance here in the west.

Frankly none of us on the outside, and likely many on the inside, of India are particularly well versed enough to discuss the topic at any sort of meaningful length.

I found the responses from (presumably) Indians living in India to be quite enlightening, important to remember as Americans that we barely can keep our domestic news straight, what hope do we have of the complex realities and internal politics of other nations, especially other large diverse parliamentary democracies.
As a descendant of Indian immigrants, India is definitely a perplexing country from my vantage point. I understand the “brain drain” theory and how my parents were supposedly among the “best and brightest” who left in the 60s/70s to pursue professional careers in the west, and how that may have put India at a slight disadvantage developmentally. But even if all those doctors and engineers had stayed, I don’t think the political situation would have changed much.

Two things stand out to me as fundamental differences between Indians in the west and well-to-do Indians in the mother country. While both put a huge emphasis on academic pursuits, getting good grades, and professional careers—the work ethic just seems different. I think those in the west put a greater emphasis on working diligently/efficiently and with a sense of urgency. When I work with teams in India, that sense of urgency just…isn’t there. I don’t understand it. It’s not that they can’t do the work or aren’t smart—it’s like they just don’t get why something has to be done *now*.

The second thing—I’m always dealing with family members or professional acquaintances in India who LOVE to tell me why India is the best at something or why the Indian Way is better than the American Way. I get it, Desi Pride and all. But the minute I point out something that contradicts their point of view, they just ignore it!

Example: someone once said something to me like “cleanliness in India is a higher standard than cleanliness in the West. The vedas had Ayurvedic recipes for soap and toothpaste and skin cream 1000s of years before Western beauty products” blah blah blah.

Me: No. Just no. India’s still working on modern sewage, basic pollution control, don’t even get me started on recycling etc.

Them: What pollution? Our homes are much cleaner!

Me: *YOUR* home is clean thanks to servants, but what about that shantytown a few miles outside city limits?

Them: Well those people are poor, what do you expect? They live filthy.

Me: Well who’s going to clean up the mess then? It clogs up the open sewers and you can smell it all the minute you go outside! Why not create civil authorities and hire people to keep these things clean?

Them: Nobody wants those jobs now because the lower caste has too much political power and they get preferred placement in all the best government jobs.

Me: So, not your problem then? Got it.
 

GodisanAtheist

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2006
3,932
2,474
136
As a descendant of Indian immigrants, India is definitely a perplexing country from my vantage point. I understand the “brain drain” theory and how my parents were supposedly among the “best and brightest” who left in the 60s/70s to pursue professional careers in the west, and how that may have put India at a slight disadvantage developmentally. But even if all those doctors and engineers had stayed, I don’t think the political situation would have changed much.

Two things stand out to me as fundamental differences between Indians in the west and well-to-do Indians in the mother country. While both put a huge emphasis on academic pursuits, getting good grades, and professional careers—the work ethic just seems different. I think those in the west put a greater emphasis on working diligently/efficiently and with a sense of urgency. When I work with teams in India, that sense of urgency just…isn’t there. I don’t understand it. It’s not that they can’t do the work or aren’t smart—it’s like they just don’t get why something has to be done *now*.

The second thing—I’m always dealing with family members or professional acquaintances in India who LOVE to tell me why India is the best at something or why the Indian Way is better than the American Way. I get it, Desi Pride and all. But the minute I point out something that contradicts their point of view, they just ignore it!

Example: someone once said something to me like “cleanliness in India is a higher standard than cleanliness in the West. The vedas had Ayurvedic recipes for soap and toothpaste and skin cream 1000s of years before Western beauty products” blah blah blah.

Me: No. Just no. India’s still working on modern sewage, basic pollution control, don’t even get me started on recycling etc.

Them: What pollution? Our homes are much cleaner!

Me: *YOUR* home is clean thanks to servants, but what about that shantytown a few miles outside city limits?

Them: Well those people are poor, what do you expect? They live filthy.

Me: Well who’s going to clean up the mess then? It clogs up the open sewers and you can smell it all the minute you go outside! Why not create civil authorities and hire people to keep these things clean?

Them: Nobody wants those jobs now because the lower caste has too much political power and they get preferred placement in all the best government jobs.

Me: So, not your problem then? Got it.
- As an American of Indian decent, your experience matches mine almost to a T.

I think India has a weird China Complex. Like India and Indians know that they should be on the same trajectory as China (in terms of economic strength and manufacturing, etc) but they're not and its kinda messed with everyone's heads. Similar sized populations, similar historical depth, intelligent and industrious people, all the ingredients are there but they simply have not been tapped appropriately.

I had a number of great aunts and uncles who were part of the "liberation" generation, my grandmother would hang out after school when Gandhi was doing his sewing protests and listen to him speak, a number of my uncles went into the civil service in lieu of more lucrative private jobs in that starry eyed quest for a "new India".

These people are some of the most jaded, anti-Indian people I know. Their whole generation basically told their children, my parent's generation, to GTFO of India ASAP and make a life in America. Maybe @Captante is actually a 90-year old Indian man mired in loss and regret for what could have been :p
 
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Lost_in_the_HTTP

Diamond Member
Nov 17, 2019
6,341
3,718
106
The only Indians I've dealt with have been the stereotypical gas station, motel or convenience store clerks who could barely speak English at all. Some years back a supposedly wealthy Indian businessman bought a near bankrupt hotel nearby with grand plans to restore and revitalize it. He appeared before city council and made all kinds of claims and promises ... got incentives ... and disappeared. Not a dollar was put into the hotel.

The only other exposure I've had is some reading on the caste system and the 'untouchables' of which I might be part of if I was there.

And of course, the various tech support call centers, but I don't know if those were in India, Pakistan, Sri Lanka or elsewhere.
 

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