Incomprehensible mass shooting happens again

[fskimospy]

So arguing that humans don't have inherent rights because we die from cancer isn't playing language games? At least I'm working within the framework we started with rather than creating strawmen.

And your presentation of other countries' Constitutions further proves my point, if the government doesn't actually stick to what the law says, the whole thing falls apart into a dictatorship (or some version of one).

I’m unclear as to what we are disagreeing about. An inherent right to life would presumably be something things are bound to respect but that’s clearly untrue. What do you think it is?

Your second paragraph is essentially repeating my point.

 

[fskimospy]

On a separate note I find it annoying how often ‘straw man’ is exchanged with ‘thing I disagree with’.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

I’m unclear as to what we are disagreeing about. An inherent right to life would presumably be something things are bound to respect but that’s clearly untrue. What do you think it is?

Your second paragraph is essentially repeating my point.

Right to life, as in, without interference to life from the government. Right to free speech, without interference from the government. Right to bear arms, without interference from the government, etc.

On a separate note I find it annoying how often ‘straw man’ is exchanged with ‘thing I disagree with’.

In this case it's applicable. You created an argument nobody was making (right to life means inherent protection from natural and accidental causes of death), said it was my argument, then argued against it.

 

[fskimospy]

Right to life, as in, without interference to life from the government. Right to free speech, without interference from the government. Right to bear arms, without interference from the government, etc.


In this case it's applicable. You created an argument nobody was making (right to life means inherent protection from natural and accidental causes of death), said it was my argument, then argued against it.

Ok so you’re saying those rights are inherent against human created constructs that inherently are based on whatever we want. This makes no sense.

We agree on this, I think your view is just naive. No rights are inherent. The only rights you get are the ones you fight to protect.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

Ok so you’re saying those rights are inherent against human created constructs that inherently are based on whatever we want. This makes no sense.

We agree on this, I think your view is just naive. No rights are inherent. The only rights you get are the ones you fight to protect.

Then why does our declaration of independence claim all men are created equal? Not all men capable of defending themselves? Not even all citizens? EVERYONE.

 

[vi edit]

I'm scared for the day that's literally interpreted to be only men. Maybe there can be a compromise.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

I'm scared for the day that's literally interpreted to be only men. Maybe there can be a compromise.

Used to be, only white men tbh. That was changed to reflect the statement, all men, then 'Men' as in mankind.

 

[dawp]

This one hit's close to home for me, I grew up on the 6500 block of 24th ave so a couple of blocks away

1 dead, 4 seriously injured in Wisconsin July 4th shooting

One person has died and four people have been seriously injured in a Fourth of July shooting at a residence in Kenosha, Wisconsin.

abcnews.go.com

 

[fskimospy]

Then why does our declaration of independence claim all men are created equal? Not all men capable of defending themselves? Not even all citizens? EVERYONE.

I guess I would wonder why people so committed to the inherent right of liberty owned chattel slaves. Doesn’t seem so inherent, even to the people saying it!

 

[allisolm]

I just heard on TV news that the toll for the 4th of July shooting is now 7 dead and 38 wounded. 🙁

 

[vi edit]

I just heard on TV news that the toll for the 4th of July shooting is now 7 dead and 38 wounded. 🙁

But we'll just say our thoughts and prayers to the 7 dead. Never mind the other 38 wounded. And their family. And everyone else that was there that now lives in terror of loud bangs and being in crowded places. And their family that experience that anxiety.

It's not just 7 deaths that statistics will try and neatly bundle this into. It's thousands of people that have had their lives forever altered. Every single time this happens.

 

[eelw]

It's thousands of people that have had their lives forever altered. Every single time this happens.

Yup. A few of the stories they’ve mentioned

Father placing his son inside a dumpster while he went out looking for other family members.

Child asking mother, will these shootings happen each 4th of July from now on?

Mother had picked up one child while only pulling away the other by their hand. That child asked, don’t you love me? Why didn’t you pick me up?

Two of the dead were related. I’m guessing husband and wife based on age. Unknown if they have kids.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

I guess I would wonder why people so committed to the inherent right of liberty owned chattel slaves. Doesn’t seem so inherent, even to the people saying it!

Indeed, several of the founders had discussions on the topic, and eventually we rid ourselves of slavery and collapsed that particular irregularity in our understanding of 'all men'.

 

[fskimospy]

Indeed, several of the founders had discussions on the topic, and eventually we rid ourselves of slavery and collapsed that particular irregularity in our understanding of 'all men'.

Those rights sound a lot more like ones we grant each other than inherent ones.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

Those rights sound a lot more like ones we grant each other than inherent ones.

It was settling on a middle ground with a large number of people who still thought owning people was acceptable, in order to form a new government. It's logically inconsistent to assume it was never intended to actually include all men.

 

[nakedfrog]

But we'll just say our thoughts and prayers to the 7 dead. Never mind the other 38 wounded. And their family. And everyone else that was there that now lives in terror of loud bangs and being in crowded places. And their family that experience that anxiety.

It's not just 7 deaths that statistics will try and neatly bundle this into. It's thousands of people that have had their lives forever altered. Every single time this happens.

it may not be the thing we wanted / but there’s finally enough to go around
from new york / to california / from detroit / down to the border
we all have more in common now than we do not
now everybody knows somebody (everybody knows somebody)
everybody knows somebody (everybody knows somebody)
everybody knows somebody
who got shot.

 

[fskimospy]

It was settling on a middle ground with a large number of people who still thought owning people was acceptable, in order to form a new government. It's logically inconsistent to assume it was never intended to actually include all men.

It’s definitely logically inconsistent!

 

[MrSquished]

It’s definitely logically inconsistent!

Yeah. And he is wrong. The Constitution never implied All men would be actually created equal in the future. It took a civil war to even make a baby step in that direction. It's an extremely flawed document that has not aged well at all. As we are witnessing right now. Unfortunately the system that it has created has now created a minority rule, in the minority is fascist and Christian theocratics, thus making it impossible to change to evolve with the modern times.

It's pretty clear a lot of white Republicans today are starting to feel more like the founding fathers values than what we believe in now.

 

[fskimospy]

Yeah. And he is wrong. The Constitution never implied All men would be actually created equal in the future. It took a civil war to even make a baby step in that direction. It's an extremely flawed document that has not aged well at all. As we are witnessing right now. Unfortunately the system that it has created has now created a minority rule, in the minority is fascist and Christian theocratics, thus making it impossible to change to evolve with the modern times.

It's pretty clear a lot of white Republicans today are starting to feel more like the founding fathers values than what we believe in now.

I think it espouses universal values to live up to that the people who wrote it weren’t good enough to do.

Our choice today is to live up to those values or to decide we can’t be any better than 1789.

 

[dlerious]

All of this is just bullshit and noise.

We schedule and regulate drugs based upon lethalness and usefulness. We sorta kinda but don't really for guns. But sort of do since I can't own an Uzi or similar. I just think we need to crack down on scheduling and classifying weapons and adding AR style things to the naughty list. Much like cocaine. Doctors use it for a local anesthetic for eye surgery. But it's not really a good thing for every day Joe Blow to possess. I'd make the same argument for weapons of war.

Now I know you are just going to come back with some vague chart about "these are all the same thing" but I really don't care. If we want to fix things we can. We just don't want to. Or won't let other do it. Because...freedom or something.

You can own an Uzi if it was made before 1986. You'll have to check the NFA for destructive devices like grenades,missiles, bombs, etc.

 

[fskimospy]

You can own an Uzi if it was made before 1986. You'll have to check the NFA for destructive devices like grenades,missiles, bombs, etc.

By your logic shouldn’t restricting them violate the 2nd amendment? They are at least as common as repeating firearms in 1789.

Repeaters were extremely rare - the providence of advanced militaries. You could easily say we have a right to HIMARS.

 

[allisolm]

And another shooter box checked:

"The mayor said several of Crimo’s online postings 'reflected a plan and a desire to commit carnage for a long time in advance' ”

July 5, 2022 Highland Park, Illinois, parade shooting news

The Highland Park, Illinois, mass shooting suspect has been charged with seven counts of first-degree murder after at least seven people were killed at a July 4th parade on Monday. Follow here for the latest live news updates.

www.cnn.com

And still another box checked:

"In September 2019, Highland Park Police went to Crimo's home after a family member reported that he had said he was going to kill everyone, according to Covelli.

Police confiscated a collection of bladed items -- 16 knives, a dagger and a sword -- but made no arrests because there were no signed complaints against Crimo. Highland Park Police did notify state police about the visit."

And "he bought five guns, including two rifles, after the September visit from the police."

"Five months earlier, local police went to the home after receiving a report Crimo had tried to take his own life a week earlier. Officers spoke with him, and his parents and were told mental health professionals were handling the matter, Covelli said."

Lots of warning signs all not passed up the line allowing him to buy and use guns of the AR-15 type.

What we know about the Highland Park shooting suspect | CNN

Hours after gunfire interrupted the Highland Park, Illinois, July Fourth parade, killing seven people and wounding dozens more, police apprehended the man they believe was responsible.

www.cnn.com

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

By your logic shouldn’t restricting them violate the 2nd amendment? They are at least as common as repeating firearms in 1789.

Repeaters were extremely rare - the providence of advanced militaries. You could easily say we have a right to HIMARS.

Technically yes. The 2A should be further amended or repealed rather than trying to tweak what we thought the founders meant. Take it as it is, it take control.

 

[dlerious]

By your logic shouldn’t restricting them violate the 2nd amendment? They are at least as common as repeating firearms in 1789.

Repeaters were extremely rare - the providence of advanced militaries. You could easily say we have a right to HIMARS.

Lewis & Clark used wind rifles on their expedition. Never wanted to own an MLRS, but it might be classified as a destructive device under the NFA - tons of paperwork and probably tons of money.

 

[fskimospy]

Technically yes. The 2A should be further amended or repealed rather than trying to tweak what we thought the founders meant. Take it as it is, it take control.

How about we just interpret every amendment the way the founders actually intended, which was to grow with the times.

If they wanted it to be specific they could have made it so but it’s not. All that happens now is duplicitous shitbags pretend two centuries old dead liberals intended their social values to endure for all eternity.