Incompatibility with older games - Nvidia vs. ATI

[Member]

@smithpd
Some of the AvP Fans have switched from NIVIDA to HD2900 cards. I will e-mail them ASAP to see if they have any problems with Thief2 on XP or Vista, also I will try to fined out what other old games that are working or not working with AMD's DX10 hardware.

 

[BFG10K]

I apologize for any confusion I have caused. I will go back and edit my misinformation.

Dude, don't worry about it; I was more concerned about the poor soul that would fork over money for Vista only to find Thief is still broken.

If you get XP screenshots from Apoppin please put them up as I'm keen to see what they look like. :thumbsup:

What is fixed in Vista is the UT2004 stuttering issue that XP uses have endured since Novemeber 2006 and only now does it appear nVidia will be fixing it in future 17x.xx drivers.

Also, my obligatory driver bug thread.

Some of the problems there have been around since the G80?s launch and I can't even get nVidia to acknowledge they exist, much less fix them

 

[b1k3rdude]

Hi Chaps just another update..

As we know from the testing I did a while ago, there isnt a noticable difference when changing from Xp to Vista - So even though the following screenshots are in Xp, I dont think vista will be any different. And when I saw a screen shot from fafhrd's HD3870 I'm considering not getting one now - but that will all change if nVidia dont fix the 169.21 (Kills loads of games) issue.

ATi HD3870 - cat 7.12
http://img245.imageshack.us/img245/2162/dump000vh0.jpg
ATI HD2900XT - Cat 6.xx
http://img168.imageshack.us/im...1/grounds2900xtaa6.jpg
Intel 855GM
http://img522.imageshack.us/im...43/grounds16bityz0.jpg


biker

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: BFG10K

I apologize for any confusion I have caused. I will go back and edit my misinformation.

Dude, don't worry about it; I was more concerned about the poor soul that would fork over money for Vista only to find Thief is still broken.

If you get XP screenshots from Apoppin please put them up as I'm keen to see what they look like. :thumbsup:

What is fixed in Vista is the UT2004 stuttering issue that XP uses have endured since Novemeber 2006 and only now does it appear nVidia will be fixing it in future 17x.xx drivers.

Also, my obligatory driver bug thread.

Some of the problems there have been around since the G80?s launch and I can't even get nVidia to acknowledge they exist, much less fix them

well, i got the Vista SS to Peter, he will link later ... evidently there ARE issues with 2900xt and some nasty color-banding and rendering issues in T2

i am *still* having problems with my CD-RoM and XP

 

[smithpd]

Here is apoppin's image for the HD 2900 running under Vista and with 7.12 drivers.

HD 2900 Vista 7.12

In contrast, below is what it should look like. Below is an image of the same scene taken with my Nvidia 7950 GT running the Thief2 EXE that is patched using Timeslip's DDFIX. I note that DDFIX is a great thing for Thief players with 8000 series cards, but it is not perfect. It has no fog, it has some grainy textures, and it introduces performance issues for some people.

7950 GT with DDFIX EXE

As you can see, the HD 2900 image has the following problems in comparison with the DDFIX image:
Patchy sky
Color banding (look at shadows and Basso's face)
Muddy, almost black dark textures (look at Basso's tunic)
Generally pinkish apearance (is that an ATI thing?)

 

[Member]

That is just terrible. It looks like AMD did nothing to remedy this situation either. Thief fans with AMD DX10 cards should contact AMD tech support and tell them to fix there drivers. We know that NV 169.XX made Timeslip's DDFIX worthless, (please correct me if this is not the accurate) does that also apply to AMD?s Cat 7.12?

 

[BFG10K]

You can submit bugs to ATi here.

We know that NV 169.XX made Timeslip's DDFIX worthless, (please correct me if this is not the accurate)

Apparently 169 causes the game to crash to the desktop after starting a new game.

 

[TheSlamma]

Originally posted by: BFG10K
You can submit bugs to ATi here.

We know that NV 169.XX made Timeslip's DDFIX worthless, (please correct me if this is not the accurate)

Apparently 169 causes the game to crash to the desktop after starting a new game.

Confirmed, it crashes right to desktop now no matter what you try.

 

[smithpd]

I have just broken with 8 years of Nvidia tradition and ordered an ATI x1950 Pro. I felt I could wait no longer because the x1950 series seems to be disappearing from the shelves. At least the x1950 Pro should solve all known rendering problems with Thief 2 while Nvidia and ATI fart around trying (in our dreams?) to get DX-10 cards to work.

 

[CP5670]

For the record, I think I have run into another driver glitch with an old game. Descent 3 doesn't work stably in Direct3D on my X1900XTX (7.10 drivers), usually crashing with the generic Windows error message when it changes the resolution, which it does whenever it switches between the menus and the game. The resolution switching does occasionally work and let me into the game, but it's fairly rare. I've been using the game's experimental OpenGL mode which mostly works okay, but is limited to a lower maximum framerate and 16-bit color, and also seems to be incompatible with AA for me.

BFG says that the D3D mode works fine on his 8800, and I seem to remember that it worked okay on the 6800GT I had when I last played this game.

Originally posted by: BFG10K
You can submit bugs to ATi here.

Maybe I'll try that. Do they actually pay attention to these reports?

 

[BFG10K]

Do they actually pay attention to these reports?

They might not directly respond but I think they do pay attention.

I believe Member managed to get his issues escalated to a supervisor at ATi via the form.

As for Descent 3, I ran it in the past on my X800 XL and it seemed to run fine under Direct3D but admittedly it was about 2 years ago when I last tried it. Have you patched the game to 1.5?

 

[CP5670]

It was on 1.4, but I installed 1.5 and it does the same thing. I filled out the form. I doubt they will look into it anytime soon, but it's worth a try.

 

[Member]

I believe Member managed to get his issues escalated to a supervisor at ATi via the form.

Sure did, I also filed a complaint with there driver team. As soon as I hear something new I will let you all know. Just keep sending your complaints to the ATI Catalyst team. According to my investigation, apparently they DO read them. For right now, I do not recommend getting HD3870, that is if you like to play old games.
@CP5670 I did test Descent 3 with 1.4 Patch Direct3D or OpenGL works 100% fine on my HD3870 and X1950XT cards with Cat 7.12. Don't use 8.1 they are buggy.

 

[CP5670]

Have you checked if modern games are working properly on that card? It looks like the same problem is affecting all of those games, and that effect is just the sort of thing you get when there are hardware faults like the GPU overheating. If modern games work though, it's obviously a driver issue. At least on the plus side, the fact that the same thing is occurring in all of those games makes it more likely that they will pay attention to it and fix it.

@CP5670 I did test Descent 3 with 1.4 Patch Direct3D and OpenGL works 100% fine on my HD3870 and X1950XT cards with Cat 7.12. Don't use 8.1 they are buggy.

Thanks, I'll try switching to 7.12 then. Maybe they have fixed this issue.

 

[Member]

Have you checked if modern games are working properly on that card?

Yep, Call of Duty 4 + (all of them) and Crysis do work fine. It looks like certain old DX games have this tearing problem. Funny, cause Thief 1 is the only old DX game that works on my HD3870.

Thanks, I'll try switching to 7.12 then. Maybe they have fixed this issue.

No problem, also there are some reports that 7.12 can cause problems with Doom 3, or any other game that is using Doom3 engine. If that happens, then you can always try 7.11. I have found that 7.11 is the most stable driver for my x1950Xt. Hopefully 7.11 or 7.12 will do the trick.


EDIT.. I have started this thread at BattleZone forum and it looks like this tearing problem exists on all HD38XX cards.

 

[Prodigy^]

Nvidia's problems with older games, plus the inability to make the s-video tv-out work, is causing me to sell my 8800 GTS and buy a 3870 instead. Not a performance boost, but it annoys me to heck that my older games don't work properly. The two I've had issues with in particular are:

- Need for Speed Underground 2: Random crashing
- Grim Fandango: Invisible 3D entities (characters for example), or weird lines all over the place.

 

[Member]

Nvidia's problems with older games, plus the inability to make the s-video tv-out work, is causing me to sell my 8800 GTS and buy a 3870 instead.

Before you go and buy HD3870 card you should read my problems first.

 

[b1k3rdude]

Evening

TimeSlip (the dude behind "Oblivion Mod Manager") has come up with a fix for DX10 card owners everywhere. Its a Direct3D patch that redirects the broken D3D calls.

Thief2/Ss2 now looks the way it used to, the FOG and STARS are back...!!!

Here is a link to thePatch at the bottom right of the following page. You will also need to download the latest version of DirectX-9.0c, i beleive its March 2008 now.
Using the installer version of DDfix 1.0.6 onwards will require Dot.net 2.0 installed. DDFix v1.2.4 works on any Direct3D compatible card, and here are some pictures for comparison

TNT-64_AGP_56.73 driver*****************8800GTX_PCIE_163.75 driver*****************8800GTX_PCIE_163.75_DDFIX'd

For better screenshots, see the end of this thread http://www.ttlg.com/forums/sho...ad.php?t=113501&page=4


http://timeslip.chorrol.com

A thief 2 mod to fix issues with the nvidia 8000 and Ati 2900/3800 series of graphics cards. It's only been tested on windows xp SP2 with an 8800 GTS, the 169.21 drivers and the non copy protected v1.18 of thief 2. Results on anything else may vary.

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XX Installation instruction: XX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XX Manual version: XX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX


Extract ddfix.dll and ddfix.ini to the same directory as thief2.exe
Open thief2.exe in a hex editor, locate the first instance of 'DDRAW.DLL' and change it to read 'DDFIX.DLL'. (This is at offset 0x27996C in my version of thief, but may vary)

open ddfix.ini and change the screen resolution there to match what you want to use in game. (Using your desktop resolution is recommended, but anything will do as long as it's 800x600 or above.) If required, you can also turn on the duel core and video fixes here.

Visit the video settings menu in thief, and choose the screen resolution to match what you entered in ddfix.ini.
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XX GUI version: XX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Extract ddfixGUI.exe, ddfixGUI.dll, ddfix.dll and ddfix.ini to the same directory as thief2.exe. Run ddfixGUI.exe, click 'apply patch' and choose the resolution you want.

Visit the video settings menu in thief, and choose the screen resolution to match what you selected in ddfixGUI.

On windows vista, the GUI must be started with admin rights to avoid issues when trying to patch thief2.exe. (Use '-noadmincheck' as a command line argument to disable this check.)

You can use '-createdefaultini' to replace ddfix.ini with an unedited original copy. (This will also be done automatically if ddfix.ini

XXXXXXXXXXXXX
XX Issues: XX
XXXXXXXXXXXXX

This fix breaks thief's normal method of taking screenshots. You can take screenshots using ddfix by hitting printscreen

XXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XX Changes: XX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXX

1.2.5
-Tweaked colour key behaviour
-Tweaked screenshots to improve speed

1.2.4
-Fixed the stars fix so that it no longer causes objects in the distance to flicker.
-Added an option to configure the colour key for the in game text overlay. (For SS2)
-Fixed screenshots sometimes failing, resulting in a 54 byte bmp.

1.2.3
-Setting UseCompatibleZBuffer to 0 should no longer crash ATi cards.

1.2.2
-Fixed crashes on ATi graphics cards
-Added two options to ddfix.ini to make the recent ATi and vista fixes optional.

1.2.1
-Fixed black menu screens on vista

1.2.0
-Switched from DX 9 down to DX6. Many bugs are fixed as a result, (health potions, black screen after alt-tabbing, missing fog, pixelated textures and corrupted borders,) but some features have been lost. (Screenshots are an order of magnitude slower, and no longer give a choice of formats. There is no longer an option to use AA or AF.)

1.1.1
-On vista with UAC enabled, the GUI will run as an admin proces
to avoid security errors when patching/restoring thief2.exe
-The GUI no longer lets you choose widescreen resolutions. It
probably still displays a few options that thief 2 can't actually use.
-Hitting scroll lock on a menu or while a movie is playing will toggle
the vwait menu fix. Hitting it in game still toggles the text overlay.
-Performance improvements

1.1.0
-Removed the HighQualityTextures option, because they weren't
-Reduced the stuttering of movies slightly
-Fixed most problems related to using WindowFix=0

1.0.8
-Fixed a bug that could cause a crash as soon as a save was loaded
-The DisableOverlay option can be toggled in game with the scroll lock key

1.0.7
-Fixed vwait messing up menus
-Removed the limitfps option, since vwait does a much better job
-Removed the particle test fix, because it didn't
-Added an option to disable in game text (gives a 1.5 to 10x performance boost)

1.0.6
-Fixed an issue with alt-tabbing introduced in 1.0.4

1.0.5
-To allow the use of a GUI without worrying about vista's UAC getting
in the way, ddfix.ini will now be loaded from '%AppData%\Thief2\' if it
exists. If it does not, it will continue to be loaded from thief2.exe's local
directory.

1.0.4
-Added an option to register lgvid.ax when thief is started up
-Added an option to disable anisotropic filtering
-Added a few other misc options
-Made a few possible performance tweaks

1.0.3
-Added a HighQualityTextures option to force 32 bit textures
-Added a printscreen option

1.0.2
-Fixed alt-tabbing in fullscreen mode.
-Fixed flickering black textures when limitfps or fullscreen mode were
turned on Partially fixed texture borders (The black line around the
sky is gone, large objects viewed side on are still buggy) Changed
default settings: fullscreen mode is now on

1.0.1
Fixed a typo in ddfix.ini
Added a better limit fps option than vwait, which tended to screw up the
menus somewhat.
[/quote]

ps. nVidia, as you havent bothered your collective fcuking arse's to help us, dont change that on our account as we have managed to fix what YOU broke ourselfs..

biker.

 

[Zstream]

Originally posted by: Member

Nvidia's problems with older games, plus the inability to make the s-video tv-out work, is causing me to sell my 8800 GTS and buy a 3870 instead.

Before you go and buy HD3870 card you should read my problems first.

That review is poo poo at best.

Please list the game with the screenshot so others can test.

 

[BenSkywalker]

What I don't understand is why so many people are getting upset with ATi and nVidia for a problem that is entirely Microsoft's. I am no MS basher by any stretch of the imagination, but MS altered the way in which D3D handles palletized textures(big changes started in D3D8 and they ARE retroactive) and the only way to work around this is to 'cheat' in the driver code and remap functionality in a way that may hinder their ability to get WHQL certification.

People should be taking up these issues with MS, not nVidia or ATi. Using the very old driver core as a workaround simply maps the hardware calls in a way that wouldn't be validated by MS. Mind you, I'm not opposed to that being an option- but a lot of people would scream if they found out that either company was 'cheating' in such a way(with intent mismapping D3D calls).

 

[BFG10K]

What I don't understand is why so many people are getting upset with ATi and nVidia for a problem that is entirely Microsoft's

The Thief problem started happening after an nVidia driver update on previous working cards, not after a DX update.

Also IIRC Timeslip (who made the wrapper) stated the issue had nothing to do with palletized textures.

 

[BenSkywalker]

The Thief problem started happening after an nVidia driver update on previous working cards, not after a DX update.

Yes, when they bring their drivers in line that is what is going to happen. Head to MSDN and check out the changes to palletized texture support starting in D3D8 IIRC, it is all documented. If that was added to WHQL cert testing, then that would have done it.

Also IIRC Timeslip (who made the wrapper) stated the issue had nothing to do with palletized textures.

Do you any other screenshots? Because it looks to be text book issue of palletized textures being handled improperly. This is impacting both ATi and nV and it is looking to be the exact sort of issues Glide based games exhibited for years on ATi and nV hardware when they couldn't handle palletized textures properly.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: BenSkywalker

The Thief problem started happening after an nVidia driver update on previous working cards, not after a DX update.

Yes, when they bring their drivers in line that is what is going to happen. Head to MSDN and check out the changes to palletized texture support starting in D3D8 IIRC, it is all documented. If that was added to WHQL cert testing, then that would have done it.

Also IIRC Timeslip (who made the wrapper) stated the issue had nothing to do with palletized textures.

Do you any other screenshots? Because it looks to be text book issue of palletized textures being handled improperly. This is impacting both ATi and nV and it is looking to be the exact sort of issues Glide based games exhibited for years on ATi and nV hardware when they couldn't handle palletized textures properly.

Wow! You could be right Ben! it looks like MS deprecated DirectDraw ... maybe around DX9c timeframe with a patch that hexedited a reference to DDRAW.DLL to DDFIX.DLL ...

http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-...y/bb318765(VS.85).aspx

Warning: Microsoft DirectDraw has been deprecated. Deprecated components of Microsoft DirectX 9.0 for Managed Code are considered obsolete. While these components are still supported in this release of DirectX 9.0 for Managed Code, they may be removed in the future. When writing new applications, you should avoid using these deprecated components. When modifying existing applications, you are strongly encouraged to remove any dependency on these components.

it looks like ATi and NVIDIA might be getting the blame for following MS' guidelines, no?


Have the Thief guys tried using an older DDRAW.DLL ?

 

[BFG10K]

Yes, when they bring their drivers in line that is what is going to happen. Head to MSDN and check out the changes to palletized texture support starting in D3D8 IIRC, it is all documented. If that was added to WHQL cert testing, then that would have done it.

This is all well and good but like I said earlier it has nothing to do with palletized textures. That and the X1950 series is still getting certified drivers and runs the game fine.

Do you any other screenshots?

They?re in the linked thread. We know for a fact both GMA and ATi cards as high as the X1950 series run the game without issue. In fact some people were clamoring to get X1950 cards before they disappeared for this very reason.

And again Timeslip, the guy who has analyzed the DX calls to make his wrapper, has stated it?s not a palletized texture issue but rather nVidia driver issues related to dithering.

He?s improved things by forcing the game to use a 32 bit render target which quite honestly is something both vendors should be doing for every 16 bit game.

 

[apoppin]

well i really don't know for sure but it sure looks like MS deprecated DirectDraw, probably around DX9c
. . . and look at the Timeshift patch that hexedits a reference to DDRAW.DLL to DDFIX.DLL


Do you know for sure if the Thief guys tried using an older DDRAW.DLL in the game folder? .. AFAIK a DLL file in the Thief folder should override the system32 version of that DLL file [only for Thief]