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In Ukraine, the US and Europe have limited options

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Jaskalas said:
Russia annexing Russians. Yeah, a really terrible thing they've done.

As I've said it remains to be seen. Russia needs to let Crimea decide Crimea's future. As you need to do.
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You can claim your position is to allow the people living in Crimea the right to self determination. But you cant claim that right to self determination happens freely under military occupation by a foreign army. History isn't on your side in that claim.
 
AViking said:
Yeah well they aren't allowing self determination. Latest reports are that the Russian military is demanding allegiance from Ukrainian forces. They're blocking bases and demanding Ukrainian bases to switch allegiance.

It's an invasion.
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They are blockading all dissenting Ukrainian movements because suppression of all opposing voices is the path to freedom, didn't you know?

When Putin arrested all the anti-war demonstrators in Moscow while using state resources to create pro-war demonstrations that was for freedom too.
 
Northern Lawn said:
Look one russian soldier preventing the Ukranian military from attacking out of their base lol. They don't want a fight why should anyone?

ukraine-russia-nav_2840702c.jpg
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In fairness, he did have Taco Bell last night 😀
 
Genx87 said:
Since when is surrounding a foreign country's military bases on their soil "protecting" their military assets? Should the US send troops into Havana to protect Gitmo? Really?

Your last sentence makes me ask if you have followed any history in the last 100 years. I am sure all of those countries in Eastern Europe really wanted a stalinist system after WWII. They wanted it so much the Soviets needed to station troops in these countries to make sure the elections went well for the communists. Come on really?
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Well, the very first thing we need to establish is Russia is not the Soviet Union. Secondly, while I recognize that Russia CAN exert influence over the referendum, until there is some proof they are, its little more than name calling to claim it absolutely will go down that way.
 
eskimospy said:
Reality on the ground right now is that Russia has invaded and occupied territory in a sovereign nation in violation of explicit agreements and the UN charter. My guess is that you would not be okay with Mexico occupying areas of the US that are majority Hispanic.

There is simply no justification for this action. There was no evidence of a threat to ethnic Russians in Crimea and you know as well as I do that Russia attacked Ukraine because of its political interests, not due to some high-minded embrace of self determination (which they emphatically reject in plenty of parts of Russia).

Why people are acting as apologists for the most naked display of aggression since the Iraq War is beyond me. Particularly those who were so against the Iraq War.
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Have the Russians fired one shot at anyone? Has anyone fired one shot at them? Could it be that they are there because the people of Crimea want them there?
 
BUnit1701 said:
Well, the very first thing we need to establish is Russia is not the Soviet Union. Secondly, while I recognize that Russia CAN exert influence over the referendum, until there is some proof they are, its little more than name calling to claim it absolutely will go down that way.
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It doesnt matter which army is occupying. Even the United States makes sure the people they want in power are in power in their occupations. That is my point. And to think this would be any different is absolutely silly. If Crimea is so hell bent on being annexed by Russia. Why does Putin needs boots on the ground in the running up of the vote to break away from Ukraine?
 
Genx87 said:
It doesnt matter which army is occupying. Even the United States makes sure the people they want in power are in power in their occupations. That is my point. And to think this would be any different is absolutely silly. If Crimea is so hell bent on being annexed by Russia. Why does Putin needs boots on the ground in the running up of the vote to break away from Ukraine?
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Do you think new regime in Kiev was going to allow a vote on independence in Crimea? They don't even allow the people of Crimea to vote for the governor and mayors.
 
senseamp said:
Do you think new regime in Kiev was going to allow a vote on independence in Crimea? They don't even allow the people of Crimea to vote for the governor and mayors.
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I don't know, what does that matter at this point? Russia invaded Crimea and moved the vote to March 30th.
 
senseamp said:
Have the Russians fired one shot at anyone? Has anyone fired one shot at them? Could it be that they are there because the people of Crimea want them there?
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It's very odd to me that you would try to endorse the invasion of a sovereign state, the violation of the UN charter, and the violation of numerous international agreements based on the idea that those being invaded have not engaged in hostilities with the invaders.

Oh and BTW Russia just demanded that all Ukrainian forces in Crimea surrender to them or face military assault.
 
Genx87 said:
It doesnt matter which army is occupying. Even the United States makes sure the people they want in power are in power in their occupations. That is my point. And to think this would be any different is absolutely silly. If Crimea is so hell bent on being annexed by Russia. Why does Putin needs boots on the ground in the running up of the vote to break away from Ukraine?
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You may want to look west towards Kiev for that answer. I know you all seem to think that those protesters are glued in place, but it seems to me it is not out of the realm of possiblity that the protesters would begin moving east to silence any who disagree with their decision to overthrow the duely elected government.
 
Genx87 said:
I don't know, what does that matter at this point? Russia invaded Crimea and moved the vote to March 30th.
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It matters because now there is going to be a vote. For the first time in history, the people of Crimea will have a say in their own future.
 
eskimospy said:
It's very odd to me that you would try to endorse the invasion of a sovereign state, the violation of the UN charter, and the violation of numerous international agreements based on the idea that those being invaded have not engaged in hostilities with the invaders.
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NATO, EU, and "international community" set all the precedents Putin needs and then some in Kosovo. Notice that Putin is not bombing Ukraine into the middle ages, unlike what was done in Serbia.
Oh and BTW Russia just demanded that all Ukrainian forces in Crimea surrender to them or face military assault.
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That is a rumor that has not been confirmed.
 
Genx87 said:
You can claim your position is to allow the people living in Crimea the right to self determination. But you cant claim that right to self determination happens freely under military occupation by a foreign army. History isn't on your side in that claim.
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It's a concern, but one we'll simply have to live with.
 
Genx87 said:
Under Russian occupation. I wonder how the vote will turn out?
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And herein lies a possible deal. Russia should agree to put troops back in the barracks, in exchange for Ukraine allowing a free referendum to go forward in Crimea, with international observers.
 
senseamp said:
NATO, EU, and "international community" set all the precedents Putin needs and then some in Kosovo. Notice that Putin is not bombing Ukraine into the middle ages, unlike what was done in Serbia.
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I suspect he's waiting for Ukraine to start shooting before "bombing them into the middle ages" begins.
 
BUnit1701 said:
You may want to look west towards Kiev for that answer. I know you all seem to think that those protesters are glued in place, but it seems to me it is not out of the realm of possiblity that the protesters would begin moving east to silence any who disagree with their decision to overthrow the duely elected government.
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So you are advocating military invasion under the pre-tense that protestors may come to a city near you? These justifications are getting more bizzare by the minute.

For the record I doubt those in Kiev would come to the Crimea anyways. They got what they wanted. The Pro-Russian leader was tossed from office.
 
senseamp said:
NATO, EU, and "international community" set all the precedents Putin needs and then some in Kosovo. Notice that Putin is not bombing Ukraine into the middle ages, unlike what was done in Serbia.

That is a rumor that has not been confirmed.
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I was unaware that two wrongs made a right. I presume that means that the next time the US invades a country or bombs the hell out of them your response will be 'well Russia did it so it is all fair game now'?
 
senseamp said:
NATO, EU, and "international community" set all the precedents Putin needs and then some in Kosovo. Notice that Putin is not bombing Ukraine into the middle ages, unlike what was done in Serbia.

That is a rumor that has not been confirmed.
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This is getting really silly now. NATO takes care of ethnic cleansing in its own backyard is justification for Putin? In what way? Were Russians being ethnically cleansed in Crimea?
 
Genx87 said:
So you are advocating military invasion under the pre-tense that protestors may come to a city near you? These justifications are getting more bizzare by the minute.

For the record I doubt those in Kiev would come to the Crimea anyways. They got what they wanted. The Pro-Russian leader was tossed from office.
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Until this new government starts doing things the Russians in Crimea dont like, but I suppose when they started cracking down on Crimean protests, its just a legitimate government protecting its interests?
 
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