In god we trust...?! WTF?

[HAL9000]

Speaking as an Agnostic who views organized religion as (historically) the means by which Man dominates Man: I would opine you would benefit from living here for some time so you might have the opportunity to allow secular reality to shatter your silly notions about what Americans do and do not believe.


Our founding documents guarantee Freedom Of Religion. Not necessarily Freedom From Religion; which appears a current European viewpoint on the matter. Personally, I much prefer the ability to choose, rather than having that choice taken from me.

I agree, but personally (based on my observations) it appears that alot of American freedoms are freedom of rather than freedom from and I think freedom from things is all important. Secularism is a good thing and I don't think that a new country like America should be embracing any kind of religious belief into it's ethos. Perhaps living in America would change how I view americans (in fact I'm sure it would) but having travelled around there for a good three months (actually a great three months) the amount of christian dominated places/ people is cause for concern IMO.

 

[Scotteq]

You are correct in your asessment that American Freedoms are "Freedom Of" rather than "Freedom From".

My issue with your "Freedom From" viewpoint lies in Who Dictates What Things "We The People" Must Be Free From. From my perspective, I am already "Free From" most things, in that - (in the context of this exchange) - I am perfectly free to NOT attend whatever church you care to name; nor associate with individuals who do if I should determine they annoy me.

By the same token - You, being a rather rabid anti~religious type, are also perfectly free to not attend or associate with anyone/anything smacking of religion should you choose. Not only that, but -(purely by way of example, of course) - you might also decide to change your mind later on and choose to practice something should events in your life give you such an impetus. And you would be perfectly free to do that, as well.

By way of 3rd party example: There is a Christian sect in the United States whos practicioners handle and dance with highly venomous rattlesnakes in the belief that God will protect them. Yes, they do get bitten from time to time. And Yes, most people in the USA do feel they're crazy. But they are free to practice their religion as they see fit.

The standard is you aren't allowed to bring harm upon others. So a religion that handles poisonous snakes is allowable. Whereas (an imaginary) religion that sacrifices others to their God by locking their 'offerings' up with snakes would be put out of business in short order.


Again - I find it silly you would be so bothered by some words printed on a piece of cotton (70% cotton 30% linen, actually) when you profess to disbelieve the entire notion behind them.

 

[HAL9000]

You are correct in your asessment that American Freedoms are "Freedom Of" rather than "Freedom From".

My issue with your "Freedom From" viewpoint lies in Who Dictates What Things "We The People" Must Be Free From. From my perspective, I am already "Free From" most things, in that - (in the context of this exchange) - I am perfectly free to NOT attend whatever church you care to name; nor associate with individuals who do if I should determine they annoy me.

By the same token - You, being a rather rabid anti~religious type, are also perfectly free to not attend or associate with anyone/anything smacking of religion should you choose. Not only that, but -(purely by way of example, of course) - you might also decide to change your mind later on and choose to practice something should events in your life give you such an impetus. And you would be perfectly free to do that, as well.

By way of 3rd party example: There is a Christian sect in the United States whos practicioners handle and dance with highly venomous rattlesnakes in the belief that God will protect them. Yes, they do get bitten from time to time. And Yes, most people in the USA do feel they're crazy. But they are free to practice their religion as they see fit.

The standard is you aren't allowed to bring harm upon others. So a religion that handles poisonous snakes is allowable. Whereas (an imaginary) religion that sacrifices others to their God by locking their 'offerings' up with snakes would be put out of business in short order.


Again - I find it silly you would be so bothered by some words printed on a piece of cotton (70% cotton 30% linen, actually) when you profess to disbelieve the entire notion behind them.

That is very valid, but you are not free from being a member of the United States, as a result you shouldn't have to be a member of a country that supports specific religious ideals (in theory) My issues with freedom of/from isn't really directed at religious freedoms the issue's I have in this regard is more a speech issue, but that's for another thread.

It's not the money, it's the fact that is is a supposedly secular nations motto.

 

[Scotteq]

That is very valid, but you are not free from being a member of the United States, as a result you shouldn't have to be a member of a country that supports specific religious ideals (in theory) My issues with freedom of/from isn't really directed at religious freedoms the issue's I have in this regard is more a speech issue, but that's for another thread.

Incorrect again - I am perfectly free from the United States and may emigrate to any place I choose to make my home any time I see fit (...and should said place choose to receive me). Indeed, I lived in Japan for the better part of a decade (7 years). What I cannot do is claim a piece of territory the United States considers it's own and claim it for myself. But I very much am perfectly free to leave.

You also have not established that being a Citizen of the United States carries with it any sort of obligation to practice any sort of (peaceful) religion, or that the non~practice of any religion carries with it any penalty.


What I *am* seeing is a rather childish sensitivity and aversion to anything with the "God" word written on it, and must admit to being baffled as to why an otherwise intelligent man would be unable to ignore something he professes to disbelieve in the first place.

 

[HAL9000]

Incorrect again - I am perfectly free from the United States and may emigrate to any place I choose to make my home any time I see fit (...and should said place choose to receive me). Indeed, I lived in Japan for the better part of a decade (7 years). What I cannot do is claim a piece of territory the United States considers it's own and claim it for myself. But I very much am perfectly free to leave.

You also have not established that being a Citizen of the United States carries with it any sort of obligation to practice any sort of (peaceful) religion, or that the non~practice of any religion carries with it any penalty.


What I *am* seeing is a rather childish sensitivity and aversion to anything with the "God" word written on it, and must admit to being baffled as to why an otherwise intelligent man would be unable to ignore something he professes to disbelieve in the first place.

Believe me I do ignore it, but that being said I find it worrisome that a country, which by all accounts is spearheading the progression of the modern world would accept something like this into it's ethos. It is a worrying precedent. While you obviously do have the right to leave, that isn't the same as the rights given to you by the nation, in the same way you have the right to commit murder, you just have to be in a nation where it isn't a crime to do so. As an American you are somewhat (although I'm not sure on the technicality here) obligated (at school and such) to "pledge allegiance" to America etc etc, and for the republic for which it stands, one nation, under GOD. That would be an issue for me right there, if my child went to school and was compelled to do that, without some kind of request to be excluded. While it may not be a legal obligation it is a social one.

I'm not sure how prominent this is, but I just find it hard, when the nation it self it's founded on so many principles that Americans are adamant to uphold, the right to bear arms, the right to free speech etc, and yet the principle of separation of church and state (which to my mind is far more paramount than gun ownership) is being somewhat ignored. I just find it disconcerting given that America is one of the largest superpowers in the world, proclaiming it's morality and democracy on other nations (CC Iraq etc) and they do it "under God".

This is the route of my issue, not so much that if America were a Christian country, but that it is, a country that subtly expresses a belief in God, every time you open your wallet.

 

[Scotteq]

*sigh*


The existence of this thread and the number of your responses in it tells me - VERY clearly - you are decidedly *NOT* ignoring it.


No "State Religion" has been established in the USA.


There is no penalty for practicing - or for not practicing - any religion. Indeed, we are encouraged to practice whatever we wish.


There are no requirements for any religion for any Government office. And by law, there may not be - whether written or unwritten.


Like I said: I find your arguments childish, reactionary, and not reflective of reality. It appears you are upset with the very concept of "God" and would outlaw it had you the power to do so. I find this far FAR more upsetting - and indeed leaning of Authoritarianism/Totalitarianism - than the notion that a people are free to practice or not practice as individuals see fit.

 

[HAL9000]

*sigh*


The existence of this thread and the number of your responses in it tells me - VERY clearly - you are decidedly *NOT* ignoring it.


No "State Religion" has been established in the USA.


There is no penalty for practicing - or for not practicing - any religion. Indeed, we are encouraged to practice whatever we wish.


There are no requirements for any religion for any Government office. And by law, there may not be - whether written or unwritten.


Like I said: I find your arguments childish, reactionary, and not reflective of reality. It appears you are upset with the very concept of "God" and would outlaw it had you the power to do so. I find this far FAR more upsetting - and indeed leaning of Authoritarianism/Totalitarianism - than the notion that a people are free to practice or not practice as individuals see fit.

Well that's fair, to be honest, I just seem to spend all my time on this forum arguing with Americans about how their principles and their rights are both the most important thing in the world and better than mine, then this occurred to me and I felt I needed an explanation, it appears there is none other than no one really cares about it that much, or no one has thought about it enough for it to be an issue. I'll leave it at that, you've satisfied my curiosity for answers... For today.

 

[Scotteq]

Nobody brings it up as an issue because complaining about 4 words printed on a piece of currency is every bit as ridiculous as accusing the UK of having a State Religion becuase the Queen is the head of the Church of England.

And yes - I fully understand you will return to once again antagonize the Americans on this forum in the near future.

 

[HAL9000]

Nobody brings it up as an issue because complaining about 4 words printed on a piece of currency is every bit as ridiculous as accusing the UK of having a State Religion becuase the Queen is the head of the Church of England.

And yes - I fully understand you will return to once again antagonize the Americans on this forum in the near future.

'Ello!

Aside from that, We do have a state religion - Christianity.

It's not just four words on money, it is your state motto. Meaning that it is the four words that America chooses to represent it's values.

 

[Scotteq]

'Ello!

Aside from that, We do have a state religion - Christianity.

It's not just four words on money, it is your state motto. Meaning that it is the four words that America chooses to represent it's values.

And we do NOT have an official State Religion.


We can go in circles like this forever: You are reading into a few words notions which exist in your mind and which carry only such weight as you choose to give them.

Like I said: I find your arguments childish, reactionary, and not reflective of reality. And further, I find your presentation fo same to be quite Trollish. But since you are dead set on projecting ideas upon a country you neither live in nor owe any allegience to, I suppose it's only fair I should relent and allow you to keep your delusions to yourself.


Oh - And by the way: To correct your assertation, my State motto is "Liberty and Prosperity".

 

[HAL9000]

And we do NOT have an official State Religion.


We can go in circles like this forever: You are reading into a few words notions which exist in your mind and which carry only such weight as you choose to give them.

Like I said: I find your arguments childish, reactionary, and not reflective of reality. And further, I find your presentation fo same to be quite Trollish. But since you are dead set on projecting ideas upon a country you neither live in nor owe any allegience to, I suppose it's only fair I should relent and allow you to keep your delusions to yourself.


Oh - And by the way: To correct your assertation, my State motto is "Liberty and Prosperity".

I would reply, but I'm fed up of being told I'm being childish and reactionary, I started out ignoring it but now it's irritating me.

 

[bfdd]

I would reply, but I'm fed up of being told I'm being childish and reactionary, I started out ignoring it but now it's irritating me.

because you are those things. you aren't a rational person, you're an emotional idiot.

 

[Scotteq]

I would reply, but I'm fed up of being told I'm being childish and reactionary, I started out ignoring it but now it's irritating me.

I assure you sir, it's because you most assuredly ARE being childish, reactionary, and Trollish.



Even a countryman of yours has (gently) called you on it:

You know, a nation isn't fucked up because fuck ups like this Nazist live there.

There are plenty of Americans that i respect, and quite a few you should respect too.

I get that you get irritated, but generalisations and the arguing with a nation that you agree with most of the time is ...

You get my point i'm sure.

Our lesser colony can't really take to bear the shame alone...

 

[HAL9000]

I assure you sir, it's because you most assuredly ARE being childish, reactionary, and Trollish.



Even a countryman of yours has called you on it:

It's such a shame you started out reasonably.

 

[Scotteq]

It's such a shame you started out reasonably.

It's hard to stay reasonable when your counterpart is being so UNreasonable.

But I suppose that's understandable, given your disabilities. Perhaps you should see a physician and have your prescriptions updated.

 

[HAL9000]

It's hard to stay reasonable when your counterpart is being so UNreasonable.

But I suppose that's understandable, given your disabilities. Perhaps you should see a physician and have your prescriptions updated.

Perhaps you shouldn't use peoples health conditions as a negative, it makes you come off as a :hmm: the word I want to use here, I believe is against the rules.

 

[Scotteq]

Perhaps you shouldn't use peoples health conditions as a negative, it makes you come off as a :hmm: the word I want to use here, I believe is against the rules.

Then perhaps you would be prudent to not allow your disability to interfere with your cognition.


Sorry: But equating "in God We Trust" to the establishment of a national religion in a country where two hundred years of law prohibits that very act smacks of the same delusional rantings as the UFO crowd.

I would request you be more reasoned in the future, but as mentioned earlier, I understand a large part of your purpose here is to antagonize Americans for personal amusement, and therefore that request will inevitably fall on deaf ears.

 

[HAL9000]

Then perhaps you would be prudent to not allow your disability to interfere with your cognition.


Sorry: But equating "in God We Trust" to the establishment of a national religion in a country where the law *is* that the establisment of same is prohibited smacks of the same delusional rantings of the UFO crowd.

I would request you be more reasoned in the future, but as mentioned earlier, I understand a large part of your purpose here is to antagonize Americans for personal amusement, and therefore that request will fall on deaf ears.

My disability isn't separate from my cognition, it and I are one and the same. And you have no right to use it as a counter argument for any point that I make.

 

[Scotteq]

My disability isn't separate from my cognition, it and I are one and the same. And you have no right to use it as a counter argument for any point that I make.

And that is exactly your problem - Your disability dictates your cognition, and therefore your reasoning is flawed from the very beginning.

And I damned well do have a right to Yellow Card you on it when I think you've earned that.


And for the record: I am sincere in my recommendation that you might want to have your prescription updated.

 

[bfdd]

And that is exactly your problem - Your disability dictates your cognition, and therefore your reasoning is flawed from the very beginning.

And I damned well have a right to call you on it when you've earned it.

He doesn't understand what freedom of speech is, that's why he keeps saying we don't have the right to say these things.

 

[HAL9000]

And that is exactly your problem - Your disability dictates your cognition, and therefore your reasoning is flawed from the very beginning.

And I damned well do have a right to Yellow Card you on it when I think you've earned that.


And for the record: I am sincere in my recommendation that you might want to have your prescription updated.

You think you've earned the right to prejudice someone based on a mental health condition. Here's some bipolar people for you:

Ernest Hemingway
Edgar Allan Poe
Vincent Van Gogh
Stephen Fry
Some even think Einstein Was Bipolar

Why don't you stop being so pathetic and tell one of the above that you've earned the right to demean them based on their health. My cognition is if anything improved by my disorder.

http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/exchange/node/1726

 

[Scotteq]

You think you've earned the right to prejudice someone based on a mental health condition. Here's some bipolar people for you:

Ernest Hemingway
Edgar Allan Poe
Vincent Van Gogh
Stephen Fry
Some even think Einstein Was Bipolar

Why don't you stop being so pathetic and tell one of the above that you've earned the right to demean them based on their health. My cognition is if anything improved by my disorder.

http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/exchange/node/1726

*sigh*


I am not discriminating against you because you have a condition. I am opining that your condition is interfering with your ability to think, listen, and reason objectively.

It is the only way I can reconcile your taking the words "In God We Trust" on the back of a piece of currency as De Facto and only proof required that the United States has established an official religion. And further that that religion *is* Christianity.


The fact of the matter is that the Law of the Land here is:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

And - Surely enough - There is no law in the United States which does this.

The LAW is that NO FEDERAL, OR STATE, OR MUNICIPAL entity may establish an official religion or other preference for one religion over another, any non-religion over religion, or any religion over non-religion. Period.

The fact that you adamantly refuse to believe anything other than what you have conjured in your mind is more than adequate proof to me that your disability is currently in charge of your thought processes. And that you use such flimsy "evidence" as a simple slogan for it just boggles the imagination.



It is Ridiculous.

It is Asinine.

It is completely Non~sensical


So spare me the indignation - I have made no judgement on you until *after* you have demonstrated your insanity. Therefore Prejudice does not exist.



Either that, or you are a lying troll.

 

[comptr6]

Great news! The secularists failed to stop the bill to re-affirm America's national trust and commitment to God, and it was passed in the house. Hopefully soon we can see "In God We Trust" everywhere and be reminded of his importance to America and be inspired. Soon our children will see it everyday in school while pledging allegiance.

I have to say I'm pleasantly surprised at how much the GOP has accomplished since the last elections. For instance Rep. Forbes, the Christian Conservative who sponsored this bill has also put forward these great ideas

H.R.546 - Honor and Remember Flag Recognition Act

To amend title 36, United States Code, to designate the Honor and Remember Flag created by Honor and Remember, Inc., as an official symbol to recognize and honor members of the Armed Forces who died in the line of duty, and for other purposes.

H.R.635 - Parental Title Protection Act of 2011

To require that all Federal agencies, contractors, and government-sponsored enterprises use the words "mother" and "father" when describing parents in all official documents and forms.

H.R.334 - Prevent IRS Overreach Act of 2011

H.R. 334 would prohibit the Internal Revenue Service from hiring new employees to enforce the Federal Government's invasion into the health care lives of American citizens.

And these are just some of the bills sponsored by him alone. I can only imagine all the other problems being solved in congress by the GOP that I don't even know about.

 

[HAL9000]

*sigh*


I am not discriminating against you because you have a condition. I am opining that your condition is interfering with your ability to think, listen, and reason objectively.

Being bipolar does not affect my ability to think listen or reason objectively, it affects my moods. That is all, it is completely irrelevant to this thread and the fact that you brought it up as a negative does show serious ill informed prejudice on your part.

 

[Scotteq]

Being bipolar does not affect my ability to think listen or reason objectively, it affects my moods. That is all, it is completely irrelevant to this thread and the fact that you brought it up as a negative does show serious ill informed prejudice on your part.

It clearly has, since you have a delusion that 'In God We Trust" somehow is proof positive that the United States has designated Catholicism as it's national religion because someone had the bright idea to print it on currency. As explained to you - Ad Nauseam - that it is AGAINST THE LAW in the United States to designate a national religion, or to make any judgment based on a religion.

Your position is delusional, more than a little paranoid, and is akin to saying that "Novus Ordo Seclorum" is proof positive that the United States is now controlled by the Illuminati, since that phrase is also printed on a bill.

It is completely asinine, and absolutely infuriating that you refuse to listen to anything except the patently false ideas which YOU made up in your head.


It's not real. It's not true. Yet you seem to genuinely believe this stuff. Why?? The only logical reason is because your insanity is preventing you from thinking clearly.


Seriously - I'm not hollering at you, but rather am now genuinely concerned that your illness is impacting you more than you think. Please. For your own sake. Get yourself to a doctor.