Discussion Impeachment

[Jhhnn]

Then why impeach him? Just to make a point?

Because it's a moral imperative.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

I supplied you with the facts, it is you who is arguing from a position of feels.

Trumps polling numbers haven't changed and his overall approval rating is negative among independents and has been consistent.

And yet Hillary was beaten and you blamed everyone else. Your facts curiously omit the concrete consequences of looking down on people that "feels". That's a Slow tactic.

 

[Jhhnn]

Impeachment might be an option but remember that much of the electorate is misinformed and of low interest in details.

Look at it this way. The Attorney General has determined that not only was Trump innocent but a victim and I expect the people I am thinking of might see Trump as a tragic figure.

So jumping on impeachment which was supposedly based on what Mueller came up with was sabotaged by Barr.

The attempt has been made. That doesn't mean it will be successful. And, uhh, you kinda forgot to mention that whole obstruction of justice thing.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Excuse me, but you did attack Pelosi, didn't you? It's naked concern trolling. In front running the report with attempts at exculpatory bullshit Barr & Trump have thrown down the gauntlet. Stand up for the Constitution & the rule of Law or cede the moral high ground. We simply can't afford to do the latter. We need to frame it in exactly those terms, as well. We need to impeach Trump because we have a moral obligation to the people.

Ahh I see. Pelosi is against impeachment and I agree with her at this point in time and yet I'm the troll because impeachment which she is against is a moral imperative. If you were consistent you would be attacking Pelosi, but your reserve virtually identical perspectives for not-Pelosi's.

 

[SlowSpyder]

There is nothing worth impeachment. None of his actions hindered the investigation, no evidence of collusion was found. He will stay in office, if the Democrats want to replace him they'll have to actually win an election, and so far they've proven impotent vs.t he Trump campaign machine, even with fake news and fake polls on their side. Trump took on the GOP, the Democrats, the media, and Hollywood and beat them all. No wonder the Democrats are so scared.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

The attempt has been made. That doesn't mean it will be successful. And, uhh, you kinda forgot to mention that whole obstruction of justice thing.

Go for it then. Take the case that you will lose and bet your political future on it, which you would be.

 

[ondma]

Explain the argument against, please.

It has already been clearly made in several posts. Obviously you disagree, and that is your privilege, but the arguments have been clearly made already. (For instance, post 54.)

 

[soundforbjt]

Not only that but in 2018 the dems specifically ran on holding the president accountable! Now they want to refuse to do the one duty which they are constitutionally obligated to do and not do it despite having the evidence on their side?

Smart! /s

Most ran on healthcare as their main campaign, holding Trump accountable was a distant position to their main campaign.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

There is nothing worth impeachment. None of his actions hindered the investigation, no evidence of collusion was found. He will stay in office, if the Democrats want to replace him they'll have to actually win an election, and so far they've proven impotent vs.t he Trump machine.

Oh the good and valid reasons for impeachment are many . The problems with the Dems is that many believe that because they may be right they will win. Ideologue partisans are difficult creatures to reason with. In terms of cause, effects and consequences they have a poor track record.

 

[ivwshane]

And yet Hillary was beaten and you blamed everyone else. Your facts curiously omit the concrete consequences of looking down on people that "feels". That's a Slow tactic.

Now you are just being dishonest. Come back when your feels are done flaring up.

 

[soundforbjt]

There is nothing worth impeachment. None of his actions hindered the investigation, no evidence of collusion was found. He will stay in office, if the Democrats want to replace him they'll have to actually win an election, and so far they've proven impotent vs.t he Trump campaign machine, even with fake news and fake polls on their side. Trump took on the GOP, the Democrats, the media, and Hollywood and beat them all. No wonder the Democrats are so scared.

There's plenty worth impeaching on, unfortunately Repubs in Congress have no spine or duty to country. They are cowards, afraid of Trump and his rabid base.

 

[SlowSpyder]

There's plenty worth impeaching on, unfortunately Repubs in Congress have no spine or duty to country. They are cowards, afraid of Trump and his rabid base.

I disagree, I think by not impeaching in the senate they're showing backbone and not letting partisan whiners force out the legitimate winner of the election because the liberal everybody-gets-a-trophy generation can't cope with not getting their way.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Now you are just being dishonest. Come back when your feels are done flaring up.

No thanks. My saying truths you dislike is not my concern.

 

[m8d]

How will a failed impeachment process when it reaches Senate vote impact Democrats chances for 2020? I assume probably negatively.

If the impeachment process does nothing else, it would make the Republicans in Congress, especially the Senate, own tRump and his whole sordid family. They would be forced to defend their non-actions to control him and admit their own culpability.

 

[ivwshane]

Most ran on healthcare as their main campaign, holding Trump accountable was a distant position to their main campaign.

Every issue was a referendum on trump. Holding him accountable was the overall theme. Healthcare was the primary issue.

So yes, of the issues voters cared about, health care was number 1, however their motivating factor for voting was to oppose trump.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/elections/midterm-exit-polls-2018-n932516

 

[ivwshane]

No thanks. My saying truths you dislike is not my concern.

Link it up then bitch.

 

[Jhhnn]

Ahh I see. Pelosi is against impeachment and I agree with her at this point in time and yet I'm the troll because impeachment which she is against is a moral imperative. If you were consistent you would be attacking Pelosi, but your reserve virtually identical perspectives for not-Pelosi's.

We don't know what Pelosi's perspective is at this point. We won't really know until Congress reconvenes on the 29th. We'll most assuredly lose in 2020 should we decline the battle because "they're just as bad". Spineless Democrats. Blah-blah-blah.

 

[Indus]

We don't know what Pelosi's perspective is at this point. We won't really know until Congress reconvenes on the 29th. We'll most assuredly lose in 2020 should we decline the battle because "they're just as bad". Spineless Democrats. Blah-blah-blah.

Pelosi likely doesn't want to impeach since it's easy to fundraise against Trump but..

I don't see how Pelosi wins her seat or speaker again if she refuses to impeach. Her district isn't braindead. This will give all the opening for a young progressive to oust her.

 

[soundforbjt]

I disagree, I think by not impeaching in the senate they're showing backbone and not letting partisan whiners force out the legitimate winner of the election because the liberal everybody-gets-a-trophy generation can't cope with not getting their way.

How is letting Trump get away with felonies showing backbone?

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

We don't know what Pelosi's perspective is at this point. We won't really know until Congress reconvenes on the 29th. We'll most assuredly lose in 2020 should we decline the battle because "they're just as bad". Spineless Democrats. Blah-blah-blah.

We have no idea

You can't even frame the discussion properly

I recall the last moral crisis of needing to do right, the investigation of Cheney et. al. and understanding the Iraq War and giving justice as warranted. You stood solidly in Cheney's corner and excused Obama not calling for one because he was black.

Look Slow Jr. you had no spine then but spine now without a brain at the top is by definition mindless. Your loyalty to Democrats is not exceeded by many in Trump's camp. Circle the wagons at all costs. That's why you earned the title of "The Apologist". If you want to be a fool, who you support does not change the fact.

Right now the Dems will lose net political hay. If she yells Impeach! you'll attack any critics. If she does the opposite you'll do the same.

Impeachment, that is one which results in a positive depends on timing and the weight of overwhelming evidence that the Democrats will benefit outside people like you or me.

Now if that's too complex for your sensibilities then blame me for Hillary losing, again, or the swing states or those two stupid to accept your perspective. They need to come to you.

Yeah that worked out so well.

Fortunately the Dems did just about everything right as far as midterms. That is what should happen again and not playing Crusader Rabbit unless a lethal blow can be struck, and that from the perspective of "not you".

Now if Pelosi decides that there is enough gain to be had and impeach? Then she needs to take all this into consideration and she has a good quality for her position, being a cold calculating bitch. She can get almost all of the party behind her and I wish her the best. If she looks at the larger picture and decides to attack by different means then she'll still have done more than the last administration and congress with Iraq.

Spin.

 

[Jhhnn]

We have no idea

You can't even frame the discussion properly

I recall the last moral crisis of needing to do right, the investigation of Cheney et. al. and understanding the Iraq War and giving justice as warranted. You stood solidly in Cheney's corner and excused Obama not calling for one because he was black.

Look Slow Jr. you had no spine then but spine now without a brain at the top is by definition mindless. Your loyalty to Democrats is not exceeded by many in Trump's camp. Circle the wagons at all costs. That's why you earned the title of "The Apologist". If you want to be a fool, who you support does not change the fact.

Right now the Dems will lose net political hay. If she yells Impeach! you'll attack any critics. If she does the opposite you'll do the same.

Impeachment, that is one which results in a positive depends on timing and the weight of overwhelming evidence that the Democrats will benefit outside people like you or me.

Now if that's too complex for your sensibilities then blame me for Hillary losing, again, or the swing states or those two stupid to accept your perspective. They need to come to you.

Yeah that worked out so well.

Fortunately the Dems did just about everything right as far as midterms. That is what should happen again and not playing Crusader Rabbit unless a lethal blow can be struck, and that from the perspective of "not you".

Now if Pelosi decides that there is enough gain to be had and impeach? Then she needs to take all this into consideration and she has a good quality for her position, being a cold calculating bitch. She can get almost all of the party behind her and I wish her the best. If she looks at the larger picture and decides to attack by different means then she'll still have done more than the last administration and congress with Iraq.

Spin.

Gish galloping & mindless personal attack, huh? Cheney. Iraq. Obama. Hillary. Spineless Democrats. But don't stand up to Trump. Don't condemn him for all of History. Wouldn't be expedient.

We don't have to remove Trump from office to win this fracas. We can hobble his chances in 2020 & force the GOP to pay a steep price for their loyalty.

Dunno that Pelosi will see it that way but I won't attack her if she doesn't. What we'll see in the near future is counter spin from Dems & a whole lot of Congressional testimony that may well sink Trump entirely.

 

[Maxima1]

Fortunately the Dems did just about everything right as far as midterms. That is what should happen again and not playing Crusader Rabbit unless a lethal blow can be struck, and that from the perspective of "not you".

The big Democrat turnout in the midterms was bound to happen. It isn't nearly as special as some make it out to be. The party that gets the presidency generally sees a big backlash in the first two years. Remember the Republicans crushing Obama in 2010?

Now if Pelosi decides that there is enough gain to be had and impeach? Then she needs to take all this into consideration and she has a good quality for her position, being a cold calculating bitch. She can get almost all of the party behind her and I wish her the best. If she looks at the larger picture and decides to attack by different means then she'll still have done more than the last administration and congress with Iraq.

Spin.

He was impeachable on day 1 with the ridiculous conflicts of interests. He's been flagrantly abusing the Constitution ever since. If Pelosi doesn't push for impeachment at any point, she's just falling into the Republican talking points in that he hasn't done enough to warrant impeachment. It doesn't help either that Mueller basically gave a green light to anyone that wants aid from a country that would like to knock the US down a few pegs. We need to initiate impeachment proceedings, so we can have hearings to lay out the evidence and proof without the horse race bullshit and "neutral" commentary the media pulls.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Gish galloping & mindless personal attack, huh? Cheney. Iraq. Obama. Hillary. Spineless Democrats. But don't stand up to Trump. Don't condemn him for all of History. Wouldn't be expedient.

We don't have to remove Trump from office to win this fracas. We can hobble his chances in 2020 & force the GOP to pay a steep price for their loyalty.

Dunno that Pelosi will see it that way but I won't attack her if she doesn't. What we'll see in the near future is counter spin from Dems & a whole lot of Congressional testimony that may well sink Trump entirely.

Oh here comes the Galloping Gish. Personal attack... where did that start? Oh yeah that was you. Everyone who cares note the inability to place credit or blame where it belongs. In case you failed to note (you either failed or willfully ignored), I haven't been a supporter for Trump - at all. That does not require me to swear feality nor ignore the history you want to pass on.

I didn't even say to not impeach, but presently it's a losing proposition that you seem to favor. "He's guilty, let's prosecute him" when the Judge is the father of the criminal? Sure, go for it. That it will be tossed back in your face if you insist on less than overwhelming evidence that convinces the great majority of America? That's going to look great for the Dems, which is why Pelosi is being cautious. You supported that before, but as things have become more complex with Barr you are now against that.

If Dems have an opportunity with a high degree of success then they are spineless if they don't take advantage. If they are acting in a way that you approve of but the great majority don't see as you do then they are witless. I can make the exact statement independent of party. Cowardly is just that. Stupdity is also based on actions, with no D or R behind that.

Now IF the actions of Democrats provide enough overwhelming overwhelming evidence that withstands the fire of Trump's blaze of ignorance then hell yes! Impeach, give the information to states involved in parallel investgations as the law permits, Send indictments to the DOJ and let them refuse to uphold the law and use that in 2020.

Intelligent, informed action is what is requred with an eye to secondary potential serious consequences needs to happen. So far I'm glad with most of the Dems action in the house although I think they need to start being more visible in calling out the administrative resistance who violate their legal rights. A huge friggin sign with the law citing Congressional authority in the law to get Trump's financials should (and might happen).

"Mr. Barr, please read this law and are you familiar with it? Do you understand the definition of "shall"? That's a yes or no. Are you going to uphold the law or make excuses. Are you the Trump's representative or the upholder of laws, of which you are one. Don't excuse or divert. Answer this question yes or no. Will you uphold this law or not?

Drill him with facts and the law and don't let up for a minute.

Now precisely what do you think I would find wrong with lighting the fires that may bring down Trump, or would you rather yell "Off with their heads"?

 

[jackstar7]

It has already been clearly made in several posts. Obviously you disagree, and that is your privilege, but the arguments have been clearly made already. (For instance, post 54.)

I do disagree. I think that Trump's base is unaffected by impeachment, because he already plays the victim constantly.

With regards to the primary season, I think Dem voters can do more than one thing at a time. They can evaluate candidates AND watch impeachment proceedings. I also think people who didn't vote in any recent election can be persuaded by non-stop media coverage of the criminal acts of the president. If he somehow maintains his position through to the next election and Rs nominate a known criminal (again), then previous non-voters might well be motivated to participate, which is exactly what is really needed. The uninterested 30-40% that don't think it matters need to be convinced and endless media narrative about the president being a criminal and the GOP protecting him is a massive chance for political gain.

I think the permissive take on this issue from the D side is inexcusable. I also think the R side is fucking abhorrent for allowing it, but that's beside the point because they're getting what they want in terms of all their goals re: taxation, women-hating, and even concentration camps.

To permit his acts sets the most horrific of precedents. That's why the arguments against fall apart for me. Pragmatism is equivalent to cowardice.

 

[jackstar7]

Being complacent in this situation is to be complicit.