Discussion Impeachment

[Hayabusa Rider]

Probably because he hasn't been charged or convicted in a court of law?

That's not necessary at all. Going back to the language of the Founders there need be no crime at all. Franklin's opinion was that "obnoxious" is sufficient good cause again taking in the contextual meaning of words at that time.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

This would be an extremely stupid move to try this, from a political standpoint. In the best case, the house votes to impeach. Then what? Still requires 2/3 senate to get the job done. This is a waste of time and not gonna happen. The next election will bring a new POTUS, if that's the will of the voters. Impeachment moves will just cost the dems the election and reelect Trump.

On this we agree. What should happen is that Trump be indicted to stop the clock on statute of limitations and then prosecute. I don't think Pelosi will allow a prosecution prefering to go the Iraq War route of "healing and ignoring" and trying to pretend Trump never happened and our system is just fine. That leaves NY and a fickle Cuomo, but legally Trump may spend the rest of his natural life in prison after he's out of office.

 

[ondma]

The excuse to not impeach because the Senate wouldn't also do so is a defeatist position. How many times did the House pass REPEAL OBAMACARE bills while under Republican control, knowing fully that their bill would die in the Senate because the Democrats wouldn't vote for it? The Republicans did that to feed their base some fake meat and to put the Democrats on the record as obstructionists (again, for their base). Not impeaching means giving a pass to every single Republican who has backed this clusterfuck of an administration. Not impeaching means that they get another chance to do this again because they know that they will not be held to account. Not impeaching means that obstruction is fine as long as some people don't help you do it.

Impeach the lying, cheating and obstructing fat fuck already. He's earned it.

It seems like every time the democrats try this, it backfires. The republicans, and especially Trump, are very effective at turning any political attacks back against the attackers. IMO, impeachment would be a dangerous tactic. Yes, it could work, but it could also backfire. If the democrats can nominate a reasonably moderate, intelligent, well spoken candidate, they should get rid of trump in the election. We have already had a long, drawn out investigation without solid proof of an impeachable offense, so just get on with the job of running the country. Propose some helpful programs like affordable college, rebuilding the infrastructure, a reasonable approach to climate change, and affordable health care, even though they will be shot down by the republicans. This could well be a more effective political tactic than continuing to attack Trump.

Edit: And even if by some miracle Trump was removed, what do we get? Mike Pence. That will solve all our problems.

 

[VRAMdemon]

Barring absolute evidence of an indisputable crime, impeachment is a political process. The Senate will not convict, rendering it useless. Worse than useless. As a political process it's deadly poison. Ralph Waldo Emerson — "When you strike at a king, you must kill him."

The Democratic Party is moving into a year-long internal battle for a 2020 candidate. That candidate has to defeat Trump. Impeachment will not remove Trump, so the election has to.

If you want to take all the attention away from the primaries and move it to a show trial that guaranteed to fail? Obama already warned Dems of a circular firing squad. I think it's good advice.

And Pelosi. She was never my choice to lead the party, but she seems to be the only adult in the room these days. She understands how fatal a failed impeachment would be and she's desperately sitting on the people who want to destroy the 2020 candidate. Two polls I heard yesterday, one from an NBC News pollster and one I saw on CNN. Among independents - which we desperately need to win in 2020 - Russia/Mueller came in between 8th and 10th in terms of importance towards 2020 vote. In the CNN one it was testing at 1%. Plus...no one can seriously expect McConnell, Grassley and Graham to vote to impeach a republican president with the approval ratings among the republican party that Trump has. He's still floating in the 80s.

Dems. need to have a party vision that looks forward. Talk about health care, shrinking family structure due to high college debt, income inequality. Talk about large corporations paying little to no taxes. Make the case that the republican party - not just Trump - has been lying to the people and making their lives harder. Then have a vision and a candidate who can sell that they care about these issues and have a plan to ease people's burdens.

Focusing on impeachment will only rile up our opponent's base and turn off the on the fence voters. Negative politics does nothing but reduce voter turnout in a time when they need to boost it in the face of Republican efforts to disenfranchise our voters. Let's not waste the opportunity. Remember, just because you are passionate about something doesn't mean everyone else in the country is

Dems should have one and only one thought in their heads for the next 18 months: the defeat of Trump in the 2020 election.

 

[Bitek]

Probably because he hasn't been charged or convicted in a court of law?

That's not the standard.

Plus if the president is immune from prosecution while in office, it makes it kinda impossible...

Dudes, I don't know how it works there. I assumed you need to be charged with something.

Damn but you jumped in with that on the first reply. That's going to fill up your inbox. Ouch.

 

[Bitek]

They can't rush into it.

Shitloads of open questions and other threads to investigate. Stay on that and just hammer him from a thousand different angles and force the rest of the GOP play a hopeless game of cover-up and hummina-hummina.

The entire goddamn party needs to be impeached.

 

[fskimospy]

It is kind of amazing that we are all just discussing that the Democrats should do to reign in or remove an obviously criminal president because we have all just assumed that the Republicans in Congress will do nothing to protect the country.

I’m not saying that view is incorrect, but holy shit is it damning.

 

[ondma]

Barring absolute evidence of an indisputable crime, impeachment is a political process. The Senate will not convict, rendering it useless. Worse than useless. As a political process it's deadly poison. Ralph Waldo Emerson — "When you strike at a king, you must kill him."

The Democratic Party is moving into a year-long internal battle for a 2020 candidate. That candidate has to defeat Trump. Impeachment will not remove Trump, so the election has to.

If you want to take all the attention away from the primaries and move it to a show trial that guaranteed to fail? Obama already warned Dems of a circular firing squad. I think it's good advice.

And Pelosi. She was never my choice to lead the party, but she seems to be the only adult in the room these days. She understands how fatal a failed impeachment would be and she's desperately sitting on the people who want to destroy the 2020 candidate. Two polls I heard yesterday, one from an NBC News pollster and one I saw on CNN. Among independents - which we desperately need to win in 2020 - Russia/Mueller came in between 8th and 10th in terms of importance towards 2020 vote. In the CNN one it was testing at 1%. Plus...no one can seriously expect McConnell, Grassley and Graham to vote to impeach a republican president with the approval ratings among the republican party that Trump has. He's still floating in the 80s.

Dems. need to have a party vision that looks forward. Talk about health care, shrinking family structure due to high college debt, income inequality. Talk about large corporations paying little to no taxes. Make the case that the republican party - not just Trump - has been lying to the people and making their lives harder. Then have a vision and a candidate who can sell that they care about these issues and have a plan to ease people's burdens.

Focusing on impeachment will only rile up our opponent's base and turn off the on the fence voters. Negative politics does nothing but reduce voter turnout in a time when they need to boost it in the face of Republican efforts to disenfranchise our voters. Let's not waste the opportunity. Remember, just because you are passionate about something doesn't mean everyone else in the country is

Dems should have one and only one thought in their heads for the next 18 months: the defeat of Trump in the 2020 election.

Excellent post.

 

[VRAMdemon]

It is kind of amazing that we are all just discussing that the Democrats should do to reign in or remove an obviously criminal president because we have all just assumed that the Republicans in Congress will do nothing to protect the country.

I’m not saying that view is incorrect, but holy shit is it damning.

Yes..it is sad. I hate having the opinion "not to impeach".

It is far more likely to end with Trump triumphant -- vindicated by the Senate vote and the possibility of him propelled into re-election.

The idea that impeachment hearings are highly likely to win hearts and minds over to the idea that Trump should be removed from office, seems wildly optimistic. Such hearings are just as likely to build sympathy for Trump (as what happened with Kavanaugh and with Bill Clinton before him).

An impeachment threat is a great fundraising technique. Pelosi was around to see the debacle of the Clinton impeachment. And how the Republicans to a hit for it in 1998.

 

[Jhhnn]

Yes..it is sad. I hate having the opinion "not to impeach".

It is far more likely to end with Trump triumphant -- vindicated by the Senate vote and the possibility of him propelled into re-election.

The idea that impeachment hearings are highly likely to win hearts and minds over to the idea that Trump should be removed from office, seems wildly optimistic. Such hearings are just as likely to build sympathy for Trump (as what happened with Kavanaugh and with Bill Clinton before him).

An impeachment threat is a great fundraising technique. Pelosi was around to see the debacle of the Clinton impeachment and how the Republicans were punished in 1998.

Dems don't need to win anybody over. They just need to motivate decent Americans to get off their asses & vote. Failure to impeach Trump would lead to a great deal of disenchantment in Dem voters, precisely the reason we lost in 2016.

 

[DrDoug]

It seems like every time the democrats try this, it backfires. The republicans, and especially Trump, are very effective at turning any political attacks back against the attackers. IMO, impeachment would be a dangerous tactic. Yes, it could work, but it could also backfire. If the democrats can nominate a reasonably moderate, intelligent, well spoken candidate, they should get rid of trump in the election. We have already had a long, drawn out investigation without solid proof of an impeachable offense, so just get on with the job of running the country. Propose some helpful programs like affordable college, rebuilding the infrastructure, a reasonable approach to climate change, and affordable health care, even though they will be shot down by the republicans. This could well be a more effective political tactic than continuing to attack Trump.

Edit: And even if by some miracle Trump was removed, what do we get? Mike Pence. That will solve all our problems.

Those who say that we shouldn't do anything because it wouldn't be good for the Democrats aren't thinking about what happens if we do nothing and let this slide, all to save the Democrats from making things worse for themselves. Regarding the "It seems like every time the democrats try this, it backfires", the last time the Democrats tried this the President resigned and they didn't have to do it. As far as Pence getting the job, IDGAF. Either we are a nation of laws, as the Republicans love to proudly proclaim, or we are not. Regarding those Republicans, let's see what some current Republican senators had to say about a President lying about a blow job and what they needed to do:

Mitch McConnell:

Following his deposition, the president had to decide what to do with his loyal secretary, Ms Betty Currie. And, again, the undisputed evidence shows that the president took the path of lies and deceit. Contrary to federal obstruction of justice laws and contrary to judge Wright’s protective order …

I am completely and utterly perplexed by those who argue that perjury and obstruction of justice are not high crimes and misdemeanors.

Chuck Grassley:

It is clear to me that the president committed serious crimes when he coached his secretary, Betty Currie, and when he misled his aides Sidney Blumenthal and John Podesta …

These actions weren’t just outrageous and morally wrong. They were also illegal. They were a direct assault on the integrity of the judicial process.

Lindsey Graham:

The question I have that needs to desperately be answered by somebody is – when he approached Ms Currie to coach her in the fashion he did, is that a crime? Because I don’t want people at home to be confused that they can do these things, because if they do what the president did, in my opinion, they will wind up in jail.

and...

[N]obody because of their position in society has the right to cheat and to get somebody to lie for them, even as the president. That means we’re not a nation of men or kings. We’re a nation of laws, and that’s what this case has always been about to me … He turned the judicial system upside down, every way but loose. He sent his friends to lie for him. He lied for himself.

Pat Roberts:

We in Kansas know that you don’t call witnesses in the middle of the night unless you want to sway them. The president did so. We in Kansas know that you don’t urge hiding legal evidence under the bed unless you want to affect the outcome of a legal proceeding. The president did so.… Do these actions rise to the level envisioned by our founding fathers in the constitution as ‘high crimes and misdemeanors’ so warranting removal from office? Our constitution requires that the threshold for that judgment must be set by each senator sitting as a juror. I believe an open-minded individual applying Kansas common sense would reach the conclusion that I reached.

James Inhofe:

Isn’t it true that [the federal law on witness tampering] criminalizes anyone who corruptly persuades or engages in misleading conduct with the intent to influence the testimony of any person in an official proceeding?

I could keep going on but the theme from them all is the same: Impeach the motherfucker. I didn't agree with them then but I sure do agree now, let's impeach this motherfucker already. If the Democrats can't do it then they ought to quit their jobs and just go home because the Republicans are going to beat them like rented mules if they let this one slide.

 

[darkswordsman17]

The only part I disagree with is dragging it out. This shouldn't be done for political reasons and that means if impeachment can be used to help the dems in the 2020 election by dragging it out unnecessarily then that should NOT be done.

I get your point, but I don't think it would be "unnecessary", as in I think there's so much shit they can investigate, and the Mueller report justifies them doing so (easily at least as much as Hilary for e-mails and Benghazi), that they could take years investigating probably just the Mueller report related stuff (the Russian meddling, the attempts to work with or gain advantage from utilizing Russian intelligence that they knew was gained illegally, and then of course the attempts at obstructing).

Hell, they were doing that, and the people heading that (including the Republican) said that there was so much stuff that the investigation could take several years just to do the basic sorting through information, requesting and carrying out hearings (just based on what they knew at that point). They had admitted that awhile back (like maybe before the midterms last year even). The right wing media tried to run with intentionally distorted claim that the guy said there wasn't clear evidence of collusion (when he actually said basically that it could be construed as collusion, just that it wasn't as simple as they had multiple people collaborating each other's stories that they all got together and decided to; that likely happened back and forth through technology that they deleted the messages of).

 

[soundforbjt]

Those who say that we shouldn't do anything because it wouldn't be good for the Democrats aren't thinking about what happens if we do nothing and let this slide, all to save the Democrats from making things worse for themselves. Regarding the "It seems like every time the democrats try this, it backfires", the last time the Democrats tried this the President resigned and they didn't have to do it. As far as Pence getting the job, IDGAF. Either we are a nation of laws, as the Republicans love to proudly proclaim, or we are not. Regarding those Republicans, let's see what some current Republican senators had to say about a President lying about a blow job and what they needed to do:

Mitch McConnell:



Chuck Grassley:



Lindsey Graham:



and...



Pat Roberts:



James Inhofe:



I could keep going on but the theme from them all is the same: Impeach the motherfucker. I didn't agree with them then but I sure do agree now, let's impeach this motherfucker already. If the Democrats can't do it then they ought to quit their jobs and just go home because the Republicans are going to beat them like rented mules if they let this one slide.

The last time there no such thing as cable news and a channel devoted to the right-wing side.

Poll after poll shows no one cares about the Mueller Investigation/report. The reason it worked with Nixon is because the whole country watched it on the nightly news, they heard no "other side" other than Nixon himself claiming innocence.

If Fox News had existed during that time Nixon probably would've survived. The Republicans in Congress had no other choice but to tell Nixon to resign. Today that's not the case. Impeachment will not work unless Republicans go along with it and that's not going to happen. It's sad that this is what politics has become in this country, but it is what it is.

edited for clarity.

 

[Jhhnn]

Poll after poll shows no one cares about the Mueller report.

Absolute bullshit. The report was issued on Thursday & it's only Sunday. Your judgement is more than slightly premature.

 

[soundforbjt]

Absolute bullshit. The report was issued on Thursday & it's only Sunday. Your judgement is more than slightly premature.

Maybe I should have said the Russian Investigation instead, but it's the same result. The average American doesn't care because it doesn't affect them personally in any way. Number one is Immigration and in most cases that doesn't as well , but Republicans have always been better at propaganda than the Democrats.

 

[Jhhnn]

Maybe I should have said the Russian Investigation instead, but it's the same result. The average American doesn't care because it doesn't affect them personally in any way. Number one is Immigration and in most cases that doesn't as well , but Republicans have always been better at propaganda than the Democrats.

Or maybe you're trying to make a point w/o evidence to support it.

 

[soundforbjt]

Or maybe you're trying to make a point w/o evidence to support it.

Maybe you have a poll that shows real interest in the Mueller investigation vs Immigration, healthcare, etc. that I'm not aware of. I'd be glad to see it and adjust my view.

 

[Jhhnn]

Maybe you have a poll that shows real interest in the Mueller investigation that I'm not aware of. I'd be glad to see it and adjust my view.

We'll see some over the next few weeks, I'm sure. Your conclusions are unwarranted in the meanwhile.

 

[soundforbjt]

We'll see some over the next few weeks, I'm sure. Your conclusions are unwarranted in the meanwhile.

I just have very little faith in the "system" anymore, not to mention Republicans.

 

[TheVrolok]

It is kind of amazing that we are all just discussing that the Democrats should do to reign in or remove an obviously criminal president because we have all just assumed that the Republicans in Congress will do nothing to protect the country.

I’m not saying that view is incorrect, but holy shit is it damning.

This is the part with which I really struggle. Saying, "well, politics!" and throwing one's hands up is destructively normalizing.

At the same time, practically, I think voting him out is likely the most realistic remedy.

It may be that we just have to wait for history to unfold and look back to see whether or not this was a new era, or a speed bump.. That's sorta scary.

 

[Jhhnn]

This is the part with which I really struggle. Saying, "well, politics!" and throwing one's hands up is destructively normalizing.

At the same time, practically, I think voting him out is likely the most realistic remedy.

It may be that we just have to wait for history to unfold and look back to see whether or not this was a new era, or a speed bump.. That's sorta scary.

I think Dems must accept the moral & historical imperative of impeaching Trump regardless of the anticipated response from the GOP.

I mean, sweet freaking Jebsu- Trump's attempts to thwart the investigation into Russian interference in the 2016 election literally threaten national security. We need to figure out how to blunt the impact of malevolent foreign actors in our elections if we are to achieve any sort of national purpose & unity at all.

 

[soundforbjt]

I think Dems must accept the moral & historical imperative of impeaching Trump regardless of the anticipated response from the GOP.

I mean, sweet freaking Jebsu- Trump's attempts to thwart the investigation into Russian interference in the 2016 election literally threaten national security. We need to figure out how to blunt the impact of malevolent foreign actors in our elections if we are to achieve any sort of national purpose & unity at all.

Literally nothing has been enacted that will stop foreign actors from playing a role in the 2020 elections nor will there be as long as Republicans hold power.

 

[VRAMdemon]

The impeachment process takes a long time. IF it can be slow-walked. If they decide to impeach and if House Dems are smart, they will conduct impeachment proceedings in a way that makes it too late for the matter to reach a vote in the Senate. "Gosh, we just couldn't get it done in time - voters will have to cast the ultimate vote!" ..

I'm more concerened about the 2020 election. The route to winning is for the Democrats to present a positive vision for the future. Do not simply attack Trump for being Trump.

What will be perceived as a partisan attack on Trump - and trumpeted as such by Fox News and Breitbart and all the right-wing media - will not change minds. It will harden the opposition, allow them to raise enormous amounts of money, and boost turnout.

The way to win the election is to give voters a positive candidate who stands for a better America that they can buy into. People have shown they want candidates who offer solutions to our current problems.

 

[soundforbjt]

The impeachment process takes a long time. IF it can be slow-walked. If they decide to impeach and if House Dems are smart, they will conduct impeachment proceedings in a way that makes it too late for the matter to reach a vote in the Senate. "Gosh, we just couldn't get it done in time - voters will have to cast the ultimate vote!" ..

I'm more concerened about the 2020 election. The route to winning is for the Democrats to present a positive vision for the future. Do not simply attack Trump for being Trump.

What will be perceived as a partisan attack on Trump - and trumpeted as such by Fox News and Breitbart and all the right-wing media - will not change minds. It will harden the opposition, allow them to raise enormous amounts of money, and boost turnout.

The way to win the election is to give voters a positive candidate who stands for a better America that they can buy into. People have shown they want candidates who offer solutions to our current problems.

Exactly, the average voter is stupid and can be easily led. If Democrats go too far left with their candidate and attack Trump during the election, we'll be looking at four more years. Vote him out and let state prosecution put him and his crooked family away.

 

[ivwshane]

Yes..it is sad. I hate having the opinion "not to impeach".

It is far more likely to end with Trump triumphant -- vindicated by the Senate vote and the possibility of him propelled into re-election.

The idea that impeachment hearings are highly likely to win hearts and minds over to the idea that Trump should be removed from office, seems wildly optimistic. Such hearings are just as likely to build sympathy for Trump (as what happened with Kavanaugh and with Bill Clinton before him).

An impeachment threat is a great fundraising technique. Pelosi was around to see the debacle of the Clinton impeachment. And how the Republicans to a hit for it in 1998.

If impeaching trump means they lose in 2020 then they never had a chance anyway. The reason impeachment backfired on Republicans when they tried it against Clinton was because he was a popular president with a high approval rating that only increased after impeaching. Trump doesn't have that luxury and those that do support trump are unlikely to change their mind if he's impeached or not.

You are basically running with the; we have to be nice to trump supporters or they won't vote for us, routine.