Discussion Impeachment

[ivwshane]

This is the part with which I really struggle. Saying, "well, politics!" and throwing one's hands up is destructively normalizing.

At the same time, practically, I think voting him out is likely the most realistic remedy.

It may be that we just have to wait for history to unfold and look back to see whether or not this was a new era, or a speed bump.. That's sorta scary.

Why can't it be both? Democrats impeach, the senate doesn't, and then the people vote him out of office.

 

[Jhhnn]

Literally nothing has been enacted that will stop foreign actors from playing a role in the 2020 elections nor will there be as long as Republicans hold power.

Trump & the GOP would thwart the public perception that such a thing ever happened at all. We need to inoculate the public against falling for it, again. We need to expose such efforts as they're happening.

Impeaching Trump is part of taking the moral high ground, of standing up for the values of honesty, decency, fair play & all the rest of it. If we can't do that then we can't win, anyway.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

It is kind of amazing that we are all just discussing that the Democrats should do to reign in or remove an obviously criminal president because we have all just assumed that the Republicans in Congress will do nothing to protect the country.

I’m not saying that view is incorrect, but holy shit is it damning.

The time for impeachment is past. If it was going to happen it should have been before the Republicans were brave enough to disregard the Constitution and law with impunity. The Republicans played this nicely since the Mueller report was understood to transparent and unspun by the DOJ. Instead they got Barr in who is the perfect Bagdad Bob. Now the Republicans are too powerful and Pelosi doesn't care about right or wrong, what is legal or not, but what shifts in power may result.

 

[Yeroon]

I just meant a possible criminal issue with our Prime Minister. The scandal is fairly intense for Canada. Plus people are passionate when it comes to politics. Me, I just want things to get sorted out and I won't take sides.

While what happened with the PM office has some murky waters, it is intense because it seems to be the only scandal the media wants to report about (although Ford seems to be making some weekly).
However, to consider that 'similar' to the absolute shitshow of the GOP/Trump admin, is doing the shitshow a favour. They can't finish reporting one scandal before the next one appears.

 

[Maxima1]

If people actually buy into the GOP corruptly looking the other way, the Democrats probably wouldn't have won anyway.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1120003102076276736

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Why can't it be both? Democrats impeach, the senate doesn't, and then the people vote him out of office.

You assume that will happen. Right now the "averge voter" "knows" that there's no justice, Trump is vindicated, or there was a conspiracy all along. Barr embraced the last two and now the Dems are "sour grape" people if they impeach.

Trump has gained significant support by the only group that matters, the independents, and that is very bad.

First and most important thing you need to accept is that Trump can win in 2020.

 

[ivwshane]

You assume that will happen. Right now the "averge voter" "knows" that there's no justice, Trump is vindicated, or there was a conspiracy all along. Barr embraced the last two and now the Dems are "sour grape" people if they impeach.

Trump has gained significant support by the only group that matters, the independents, and that is very bad.

First and most important thing you need to accept is that Trump can win in 2020.

The only people who believe that are trump supporters, as in people who are never and will never vote for a Democrat.

Trump hasn't gained anything. His approval ratings are the only thing that's stable about his presidency.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/203198/presidential-approval-ratings-donald-trump.aspx

 

[kage69]

Why can't it be both? Democrats impeach, the senate doesn't, and then the people vote him out of office.

This.

Are Dems thinking about 2020 enough here? Specifically why people should vote for those who take a pass on their constitutional duty? Sounds downright republican to me, what happened to being the real party of law and order?

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

The only people who believe that are trump supporters, as in people who are never and will never vote for a Democrat.

You consistently underestimate your enemies and oversimplify the population while embracing hubris. How did you do in 2016? You should have crushed Trump and yet he's President. You want a foot shooting party? You are well on your way.

 

[Jhhnn]

The time for impeachment is past. If it was going to happen it should have been before the Republicans were brave enough to disregard the Constitution and law with impunity. The Republicans played this nicely since the Mueller report was understood to transparent and unspun by the DOJ. Instead they got Barr in who is the perfect Bagdad Bob. Now the Republicans are too powerful and Pelosi doesn't care about right or wrong, what is legal or not, but what shifts in power may result.

That's it- attack the Democrats in advance of whatever they do.

 

[Iron Woode]

While what happened with the PM office has some murky waters, it is intense because it seems to be the only scandal the media wants to report about (although Ford seems to be making some weekly).
However, to consider that 'similar' to the absolute shitshow of the GOP/Trump admin, is doing the shitshow a favour. They can't finish reporting one scandal before the next one appears.

Our scandals are small usually.

Although, every time Trudeau opens his mouth he gets in more trouble. Doug hasn't caused any scandals yet. Certain groups hate him but that is to be expected after such a big change in government.

 

[ivwshane]

You consistently underestimate your enemies and oversimplify the population while embracing hubris. How did you do in 2016? You should have crushed Trump and yet he's President. You want a foot shooting party? You are well on your way.

I was completely unaware of a foreign power interfering in the election. Had I been made aware of that, my estimation wouldn't have been so far off.

Oh and by the way: I'm not sure who you think my enemies are but the only one I consider to be enemies are those that try to subvert our democracy.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

That's it- attack the Democrats in advance of whatever they do.

Thanks alt-trumpette. Hey you and others want to lose? You seem to not understand how power transitions and obsticles. So hand Trump another win as you effectively ask for and you'll again be in part responsible.

 

[kage69]

The only people who believe that are trump supporters, as in people who are never and will never vote for a Democrat.

I'll make a prediction right now. In 2020, the number of voters for Trump, should he run, will be less than the number of people who voted for him in 2016.

Trump hasn't made gains, he's been slowly bleeding support since the beginning, with fluctuations up and down fiasco/gaffe dependent. He's already lost New England and the Rust Belt, and will be short hundreds of thousands of baby boomer voters nationwide by Nov 2020. Now add in the states who are pledging to follow popular vote against the guy who won by 70k spread out over 3 states.

Dems dished out a severe beating in 2018, they should hang onto that fighting intent and press the enemy until the job is done. Having the constitution on your side, following your duty as it prescribes, is a shield the Dems should use IMO. The public is informed enough to know we've gone far beyond the pressing concerns of stained dresses and the lies used to hide them. I fear the danger is letting the public down right before an election while playing to the oppositions propaganda.

 

[Maxima1]

Holy ****. Lawfareblog legal "analysis". WTF! How is there an exception in the criminal law for being a bad criminal? To be frank, was it really incompetent when they could have possibly won the election as a result and no one was caught? It’s a fucking dumb point. As I said, Mueller wussed out and/or didn't want to irreparably hurt his party.

https://www.lawfareblog.com/notes-mueller-report-reading-diary

But here’s the thing: it wasn’t for lack of trying. Indeed, the Mueller report makes clear that Trump personally ordered an attempt to obtain Hillary Clinton’s emails; and people associated with the campaign pursued this believing they were dealing with Russian hackers. Trump also personally engaged in discussions about coordinating public relations strategy around WikiLeaks releases of hacked emails. At least one person associated with the campaign was in touch directly with the Guccifer 2.0 persona of the GRU. And Donald Trump, Jr. was directly in touch with WikiLeaks itself—from whom he obtained a password to a hacked database. There are reasons none of these incidents amount to crimes—good reasons, in my view, in most cases, viable judgment calls in others. But the picture it all paints of the president’s conduct is anything but exonerating.

This was not “no collusion.” It was Keystone Kollusion—and the incompetence of it is likely the reason no crime was committed.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

I was completely unaware of a foreign power interfering in the election. Had I been made aware of that, my estimation wouldn't have been so far off.

Oh and by the way: I'm not sure who you think my enemies are but the only one I consider to be enemies are those that try to subvert our democracy.

You and others are your own enemes too often because you don't view the facts as they are and the obvious first level consequences. You may have noted I am not a fan of what's happening nor do I support actions which aid a common enemy

 

[Maxima1]

You and others are your own enemes too often because you don't view the facts as they are and the obvious first level consequences. You may have noted I am not a fan of what's happening nor do I support actions which aid a common enemy

I've seen polls showing that his numbers went down. On net, that seems to be what happened so far. You looking at Gallup for indepedents? It's all speculative, but not pressing for impeachment proceedings comes across to me as a more problematic path.

 

[ivwshane]

I'll make a prediction right now. In 2020, the number of voters for Trump, should he run, will be less than the number of people who voted for him in 2016.

Trump hasn't made gains, he's been slowly bleeding support since the beginning, with fluctuations up and down fiasco/gaffe dependent. He's already lost New England and the Rust Belt, and will be short hundreds of thousands of baby boomer voters nationwide by Nov 2020. Now add in the states who are pledging to follow popular vote against the guy who won by 70k spread out over 3 states.

Dems dished out a severe beating in 2018, they should hang onto that fighting intent and press the enemy until the job is done. Having the constitution on your side, following your duty as it prescribes, is a shield the Dems should use IMO. The public is informed enough to know we've gone far beyond the pressing concerns of stained dresses and the lies used to hide them.

Not only that but in 2018 the dems specifically ran on holding the president accountable! Now they want to refuse to do the one duty which they are constitutionally obligated to do and not do it despite having the evidence on their side?

Smart! /s

 

[ivwshane]

You and others are your own enemes too often because you don't view the facts as they are and the obvious first level consequences. You may have noted I am not a fan of what's happening nor do I support actions which aid a common enemy

I supplied you with the facts, it is you who is arguing from a position of feels.

Trumps polling numbers haven't changed and his overall approval rating is negative among independents and has been consistent.

 

[jackstar7]

I understand the arguments for impeachment. Nonetheless, I think it would more likely be a mistake than not. Yet if the dems decide to go that route, I'll get behind it. However, if it's going to happen, someone somewhere is going to have to convince one person: Nancy Pelosi. If Pelosi isn't on board, it's never going to happen. Making the entire discussion moot.

Explain the argument against, please.

 

[kage69]

Not only that but in 2018 the dems specifically ran on holding the president accountable! Now they want to refuse to do the one duty which they are constitutionally obligated to do and not do it despite having the evidence on their side?

Smart! /s

Pretty much. I don't see any of that helping with the rebranding effort of late. Making the republicans in the Senate take a stand atop their pile of manure and display their party before country flag doesn't make the Dems look timid or weak on rule of law at all.

Taking a pass on duty, a la GOP SOP, could actually do that however, I bet it would spite many supporters who helped give them 2018.

In general, I agree with others that we all need a few weeks to better digest the last several days. I won't begrudge the Dems for taking a little time to plan things out to their advantage. There's time.

 

[ondma]

Why can't it be both? Democrats impeach, the senate doesn't, and then the people vote him out of office.

Then why impeach him? Just to make a point?

 

[ivwshane]

Then why impeach him? Just to make a point?

You mean why should they do their constitutional duty?

 

[Jhhnn]

Thanks alt-trumpette. Hey you and others want to lose? You seem to not understand how power transitions and obsticles. So hand Trump another win as you effectively ask for and you'll again be in part responsible.

Excuse me, but you did attack Pelosi, didn't you? It's naked concern trolling. In front running the report with attempts at exculpatory bullshit Barr & Trump have thrown down the gauntlet. Stand up for the Constitution & the rule of Law or cede the moral high ground. We simply can't afford to do the latter. We need to frame it in exactly those terms, as well. We need to impeach Trump because we have a moral obligation to the people.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

I've seen polls showing that his numbers went down. On net, that seems to be what happened so far. You looking at Gallup for indepedents? It's all speculative, but not pressing for impeachment proceedings comes across to me as a more problematic path.

Impeachment might be an option but remember that much of the electorate is misinformed and of low interest in details.

Look at it this way. The Attorney General has determined that not only was Trump innocent but a victim and I expect the people I am thinking of might see Trump as a tragic figure.

So jumping on impeachment which was supposedly based on what Mueller came up with was sabotaged by Barr.

Rather than beating that horse on the respirator to death, don't focus on "collusion". Instead go after his financials and expose them. Certainly NY has found sufficient grounds to go after Trump and his family, merely waiting for a chance. Focus on Trump for criminal activities (that worked against the mob and Enron after all), things that are harder to wiggle out of. Right now impeach is a losing proposition of petty revenge at least seen that way by a sufficient number to perhaps not vote for Trump but stay home and the Dems suffer.

So what?

1) Use every legal mechanism to obtain documentation and then go on that. Send Barr recommendations to criminally indict the head of the IRS, Mnchen, then when Barr fails to act in a timely way hall him before Congress and read the law to him. Then onto the courts without the DOJ and perhaps have those who are uncooperative held in contempt of Congress and jail them.

There is one shot at the king, Any impeachment requires a good chance of putting sufficient pressure on Republicans to give sufficient support for removal in the Senate. The consequences of failure could be catastrophic.