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Discussion Impeachment

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zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
105,003
19,685
136
I didn't support anything like it. I only said that if they refuse it will be decided by the courts.
This really isn't an issue for the courts. Congress has absolute authority to hold the administration accountable. It can't be any clearer in the constitution, and the courts have already ruled on this in the past.

There really is no question other than the one I posed earlier: why do you support a model of government that runs counter to the one described in our constitution? Or is it that you just don't understand much about civics?

It seems like the catch-all for the modern conservative is "well, let the courts decide! I can't form an opinion based on the clear evidence of crime, until the courts decide! My mind is not my own..." Which is a far cry from the previous generation of conservatives that fully believed that "Activist courts are ruining the country!"

You guys...so funny.
 

hal2kilo

Lifer
Feb 24, 2009
16,462
4,377
136
This really isn't an issue for the courts. Congress has absolute authority to hold the administration accountable. It can't be any clearer in the constitution, and the courts have already ruled on this in the past.

There really is no question other than the one I posed earlier: why do you support a model of government that runs counter to the one described in our constitution? Or is it that you just don't understand much about civics?

It seems like the catch-all for the modern conservative is "well, let the courts decide! I can't form an opinion based on the clear evidence of crime, until the courts decide! My mind is not my own..." Which is a far cry from the previous generation of conservatives that fully believed that "Activist courts are ruining the country!"

You guys...so funny.
And yet they seem clueless that this is happening, Who me?
 

Jhhnn

No Lifer
Nov 11, 1999
61,667
13,747
136
They are political creatures that will do what it takes to win. They rarely if ever stand on integrity, but instead maneuver to best advantage. It is most often the right way to win at politics. It is a weakness of the progressives like AOC and Warren that they are not better at the political maneuvering for best advantage.

Pelosi has basically said that she will not support impeaching Trump because it would not be politically advantageous to do so at this time. Someone with integrity would say that it is worth doing because it is the right thing to do.

The thing is Pelosi is probably right. It almost certainly will not actually end up in impeachment because it will die in the Senate, and in the end work in Trumps favor. But political maneuvering is also not inspiring. I'm saying that right now I think we need to be inspired more than we need to get rid of Trump.

This entire problem that is Trump is being caused by people being disillusioned by our politics. People are disillusioned because they have little faith in our politicians. Trump might be terrible, but he does seem to inspire a certain type of people, and because he does they will stand by him no matter what. We need someone that can do that one the other side of the table.
That's not what Pelosi said.

https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2019/05/07/nancy-pelosi-trump-goading-to-impeach-sot-vpx.cnn

Win or lose in the Senate, if we're going to impeach Trump it must be seen to be for the purpose of upholding the Constitution. Until then, Dems will unwind the scurrilous spin that Barr has put on the whole thing. Both the Special Counsel & the AG are bound by long standing policy that no sitting President can be indicted. When the Special Counsel says that the evidence does not allow him to exonerate the President it doesn't allow the AG to do so, either. Barr attempts to usurp the power of Congress in his defense of Trump. He dishonors his oath of office, plain & simple.
 
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Dulanic

Diamond Member
Oct 27, 2000
9,798
400
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I was in the base of no impeachment up until this point, just go on. But with this executive privilege.... They have no choice. They MUST impeach.

It is congresses job to hold a president accountable no matter the party. Executive privilege shouldn't be legal when it is specifically about the investigation that would be used for impeachment. This administration is trying to be a dictatorship, and it shouldn't be allowed.

If ANYONE does this, this should be impeached.
 
Last edited:

fleshconsumed

Diamond Member
Feb 21, 2002
6,022
1,389
136
They are political creatures that will do what it takes to win. They rarely if ever stand on integrity, but instead maneuver to best advantage. It is most often the right way to win at politics. It is a weakness of the progressives like AOC and Warren that they are not better at the political maneuvering for best advantage.

Pelosi has basically said that she will not support impeaching Trump because it would not be politically advantageous to do so at this time. Someone with integrity would say that it is worth doing because it is the right thing to do.

The thing is Pelosi is probably right. It almost certainly will not actually end up in impeachment because it will die in the Senate, and in the end work in Trumps favor. But political maneuvering is also not inspiring. I'm saying that right now I think we need to be inspired more than we need to get rid of Trump.

This entire problem that is Trump is being caused by people being disillusioned by our politics. People are disillusioned because they have little faith in our politicians. Trump might be terrible, but he does seem to inspire a certain type of people, and because he does they will stand by him no matter what. We need someone that can do that one the other side of the table.
I think you're right on this one. Unfortunately, Trump with Barr and McConnell have successfully equated Mueller report with nothingburger in the minds of their followers. In light of this I completely understand what Pelosi is doing right now - she's playing the political game she should be playing right now. She has to go through the proper motions to avoid any appearance of it being political - she has to get Trump's taxes for incontrovertible evidence of any wrongdoing, she has to get Barr to testify before house lawyers, she has to get Mueller to testify, and then potentially get another Barr testimony to explain why he lied in front of the Congress. All of this must happen before impeachment. I just hope that this is the eventual end goal, that Pelosi is working her way towards impeachment, slowly and methodically. Yes, it is more than likely that Senate will not convict, and yes, there is a chance that failed impeachment attempt will give Trump boost for 2020 elections, but like you, I believe that not impeaching creates many more problems in the future. Not impeaching sends a strong message that nothing matters, that there is no accountability, and that can have a negative effect on democrat turn out in 2020.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,880
4,212
126
In light of this I completely understand what Pelosi is doing right now - she's playing the political game she should be playing right now.

This is as serious a matter as can be, determining the future of Constitutional governance. As such Pelosi will use every political trick, dirty or not as long as lawful, while not tipping her hand. What she thinks I cannot say but I respect her political acumen and low cunning.
 

Jhhnn

No Lifer
Nov 11, 1999
61,667
13,747
136
I think you're right on this one. Unfortunately, Trump with Barr and McConnell have successfully equated Mueller report with nothingburger in the minds of their followers. In light of this I completely understand what Pelosi is doing right now - she's playing the political game she should be playing right now. She has to go through the proper motions to avoid any appearance of it being political - she has to get Trump's taxes for incontrovertible evidence of any wrongdoing, she has to get Barr to testify before house lawyers, she has to get Mueller to testify, and then potentially get another Barr testimony to explain why he lied in front of the Congress. All of this must happen before impeachment. I just hope that this is the eventual end goal, that Pelosi is working her way towards impeachment, slowly and methodically. Yes, it is more than likely that Senate will not convict, and yes, there is a chance that failed impeachment attempt will give Trump boost for 2020 elections, but like you, I believe that not impeaching creates many more problems in the future. Not impeaching sends a strong message that nothing matters, that there is no accountability, and that can have a negative effect on democrat turn out in 2020.
The notion that an impeached Trump would gain electoral advantage from it is pure gaslighting. That holds for the GOP Senate should they not remove him from office.
 

pcgeek11

Lifer
Jun 12, 2005
17,836
1,888
126
So you acknowledge identical arguments were made in the past and were rejected by the courts, correct?

Similar is not identical.

Someone has to make a determination that it meets the “grave hostile acts of a foreign power” or "strong public interest". And of course we all have opinions...

Under U.S. law, grand jury testimony generally must be kept secret. But if a grand jury matter involves “grave hostile acts of a foreign power” or other intelligence information, the information can be shared with appropriate government officials. The law also lets a judge release grand jury information when strong public interest is at stake.

The above is from the reuters article:
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-russia-subpoena-explainer/explainer-can-democratic-subpoenas-force-the-release-of-muellers-trump-russia-report-idUSKCN1RE2GW
 

pcgeek11

Lifer
Jun 12, 2005
17,836
1,888
126
Until the court's decide you really don't give a shit? You're allowed to have thoughts beyond a court opinion you know.

Its really 3 different options.

1. You're an empty vessel incapable to reasoning or forming your own conclusions.
2. You support the actions but don't really want to say so (this is the most chickenshit option)
3. You oppose the current course but for some reason are incapable of expressing this opinion clearly.
I support following the law. Both sides are too ingrained in their bias. The courts will need to make the decisions as it is obvious nobody else is capable.

So you can stuff your suppositions above. Thanks :)
 

pcgeek11

Lifer
Jun 12, 2005
17,836
1,888
126
This really isn't an issue for the courts. Congress has absolute authority to hold the administration accountable. It can't be any clearer in the constitution, and the courts have already ruled on this in the past.

There really is no question other than the one I posed earlier: why do you support a model of government that runs counter to the one described in our constitution? Or is it that you just don't understand much about civics?

It seems like the catch-all for the modern conservative is "well, let the courts decide! I can't form an opinion based on the clear evidence of crime, until the courts decide! My mind is not my own..." Which is a far cry from the previous generation of conservatives that fully believed that "Activist courts are ruining the country!"

You guys...so funny.
See my post above this fski.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
105,003
19,685
136
I support following the law. Both sides are too ingrained in their bias. The courts will need to make the decisions as it is obvious nobody else is capable.

So you can stuff your suppositions above. Thanks :)
and yet these statements are nothing but supposition based on no observable fact. Why do you do this obvious thing, then bitch and moan when you think other people are doing that? Why do you keep doing this?

Is it that you just don't have any clue that you are doing it?
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,880
4,212
126
See my post above this fski.
I watched parts of the contempt hearing and what Nadler is demanding is that Barr clear this with the Courts in conjunction with the House removing 6(e) concerns. There's no legitimate reason to not follow the process so the obvious motivation is obstruction of the investigation. If the court agrees that Congress has the right in this situation to review material then Barr can still refuse to comply with both Congress and the Judicial Branch.

Impeachment likely ensues and Republicans just may support removal, not because of any Democrat or House reason but that Trump would have entirely broken the Constitution by setting himself as the sole power of government, with others being irrelevant as far as his desires are concerned. I don't think Mitch wants to be the Congressional member that overthrew the Constitution in such a blatant and indefensible manner. He'll go down with the great traitors of history which is not a good look.
 

pcgeek11

Lifer
Jun 12, 2005
17,836
1,888
126
and yet these statements are nothing but supposition based on no observable fact. Why do you do this obvious thing, then bitch and moan when you think other people are doing that? Why do you keep doing this?

Is it that you just don't have any clue that you are doing it?

I don't bitch and moan. I state my opinions and when you don't agree you bitch and moan about it. We disagree, I'm fine with that.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
105,003
19,685
136
I don't bitch and moan. I state my opinions and when you don't agree you bitch and moan about it. We disagree, I'm fine with that.
and yet you've failed to explain why anyone should have their time wasted over your uninformed opinions appearing besides the expert analysis of people that understand and do this work for a living.

again: your uninformed, incurious opinion is precisely meaningless when you try to present it as somehow valid against experts and their analysis in a field that you clearly don't give a tit about.

do you at least acknowledge how childish you sound here? Do you get that? And no "I'm just stating my opinion" is not a defense of anything. It's the kind of thing that an 8 year old says and properly deserves a slap from dad or mom for saying something so stupid.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
105,003
19,685
136
and dude--you're laughing at everyone's posts these days. Are you really having fun with the post-op codeine or what? :D
 

pcgeek11

Lifer
Jun 12, 2005
17,836
1,888
126
and yet you've failed to explain why anyone should have their time wasted over your uninformed opinions appearing besides the expert analysis of people that understand and do this work for a living.

again: your uninformed, incurious opinion is precisely meaningless when you try to present it as somehow valid against experts and their analysis in a field that you clearly don't give a tit about.

do you at least acknowledge how childish you sound here? Do you get that? And no "I'm just stating my opinion" is not a defense of anything. It's the kind of thing that an 8 year old says and properly deserves a slap from dad or mom for saying something so stupid.
I'm done. You only resort to ranting and flinging insults like a monkey and a handful of poop.
 

pcgeek11

Lifer
Jun 12, 2005
17,836
1,888
126
and dude--you're laughing at everyone's posts these days. Are you really having fun with the post-op codeine or what? :D

No, It is because I think all these posts are funny with the massive paranoia and guessing what is or should happen.
 
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VRAMdemon

Diamond Member
Aug 16, 2012
4,940
4,400
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Those of us outside the decision-making group can debate whether the Democrats have a good strategy, bad strategy, or any strategy at all.

An actual impeachment vote is pointless as long as the R's are in charge of the Senate -- it will only produce party line votes and give Trump more fodder to whine about at his rallies (partisan witch hunt!).

Trump will try to goad the House Democrats into holding that impeachment vote, because that means, effectively, the end of all meaningful oversight and investigation into his wrongdoing.

The House won't have a tuff time holding hearings that's convincing to the majority of voters, once they've sent the matter over to the Senate and McConnell gets a hold of it. Trump is practically drooling at that prospect.

Expect lots of blatant incitement-to-vote-to-impeach - even more egregiously outrageous conduct than usual from the Trump clown car.

Impeachment is still cold with the American public with around 30% in favor according to the last poll I've seen. Impeachment proceedings matter, even if they don't culminate in the removal of a President. They should be treated as serious business, and should not become just another political clusterfuck.

One thing I would say is that it would be wrong to hold back impeachment as a way of reversing the next election, should Trump win it.

So that means that if we're going to impeach him for things we already know about, the time to do it is in 2019, not in 2021. (If evidence is found later of additional crimes we don't now know about, they'd be fair game.)
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,880
4,212
126
Impeachment is still cold with the American public with around 30% in favor according to the last poll I've seen
What I saw was a reduction in favor to 37% immediately after Barr have his "report". Now Trump has jumped the shark with his responses and investigations are likely not to remain hindered without severe negative impact.

Lets look at the only historically similar situation

Nixon and his ratings.

Please read the whole thing if you like but Nixon was far more liked than Trump.

Even so look at 1973. Nixon was in great trouble even allowing for sentiment against the VN War. As facts came out there was a point that no AG nor staff member could protect him. Nixon became unstable, withdrawn, vicious and even less concerned with the rule of law as his highest priority was to cover his ass.

That is what we seen now, an AG covering for the modern version of Nixon with outlandish reasoning unsupported by facts, to the point where Special Counsel confronted and called Barr on it. Trump retreats into the imagined invulnerability of EP and learns that there is no refuge there. Barr knows all this and the last thing he wants is to give a court a chance to do the same thing and so obstructs when much could be settled by him not doing the job of the courts and ask the courts to give a proper ruling, the very last bloody thing Trump wants.

Back to impeachment. For now Trump isn't as bad off as Nixon, but he was never as popular either. Since the truth brought down a much more popular President the fall for Trump is likely catastrophic and for many similar reasons.

At this minute I believe there are more against impeachment than for, but then again we're not executing impeachment but talking about doing so at some point, as happened with Nixon. If the decision is made to follow through then there is no court intervention needed and Barr and Trump will give in or be spanked by the SCOTUS and then everything comes out and no EP possible. He's stripped naked as ugly as that may be and the Republicans will have to support his abomination in full view and with the backing of the SCOTUS with their decisions already made.

When all is presented it's hard to imagine that people will fail to take notice and what they are taking notice of.

It all comes down to two things, timing and evidence.
 

kage69

Lifer
Jul 17, 2003
17,275
7,466
136
A nice little synopsis, plus historical context, courtesy of The Atlantic. Worth a couple minutes I think.

 

Maxima1

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2013
3,280
643
126
What I saw was a reduction in favor to 37% immediately after Barr have his "report". Now Trump has jumped the shark with his responses and investigations are likely not to remain hindered without severe negative impact.

Lets look at the only historically similar situation

Nixon and his ratings.

Please read the whole thing if you like but Nixon was far more liked than Trump.

Even so look at 1973. Nixon was in great trouble even allowing for sentiment against the VN War. As facts came out there was a point that no AG nor staff member could protect him. Nixon became unstable, withdrawn, vicious and even less concerned with the rule of law as his highest priority was to cover his ass.

That is what we seen now, an AG covering for the modern version of Nixon with outlandish reasoning unsupported by facts, to the point where Special Counsel confronted and called Barr on it. Trump retreats into the imagined invulnerability of EP and learns that there is no refuge there. Barr knows all this and the last thing he wants is to give a court a chance to do the same thing and so obstructs when much could be settled by him not doing the job of the courts and ask the courts to give a proper ruling, the very last bloody thing Trump wants.

Back to impeachment. For now Trump isn't as bad off as Nixon, but he was never as popular either. Since the truth brought down a much more popular President the fall for Trump is likely catastrophic and for many similar reasons.

At this minute I believe there are more against impeachment than for, but then again we're not executing impeachment but talking about doing so at some point, as happened with Nixon. If the decision is made to follow through then there is no court intervention needed and Barr and Trump will give in or be spanked by the SCOTUS and then everything comes out and no EP possible. He's stripped naked as ugly as that may be and the Republicans will have to support his abomination in full view and with the backing of the SCOTUS with their decisions already made.

When all is presented it's hard to imagine that people will fail to take notice and what they are taking notice of.

It all comes down to two things, timing and evidence.
Call for impeachment is also lower because that's what the establishment Democrats want so far. If they call for it, those leaning Democrat will line up in the chow line.
 

Jhhnn

No Lifer
Nov 11, 1999
61,667
13,747
136
Similar is not identical.

Someone has to make a determination that it meets the “grave hostile acts of a foreign power” or "strong public interest". And of course we all have opinions...

Under U.S. law, grand jury testimony generally must be kept secret. But if a grand jury matter involves “grave hostile acts of a foreign power” or other intelligence information, the information can be shared with appropriate government officials. The law also lets a judge release grand jury information when strong public interest is at stake.

The above is from the reuters article:
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-russia-subpoena-explainer/explainer-can-democratic-subpoenas-force-the-release-of-muellers-trump-russia-report-idUSKCN1RE2GW
That's some very muddled thinking on your part. It's obvious that strong public interest is at stake in this matter. The HOR has the sole power of impeachment & the right to any and all materials related to such. That's at the highest order of the law, the Constitution itself. Barr's oath demands that he comply with that. His prosecutorial judgement is immaterial. It's not his call to make. If you think it's more complicated than that you've been gaslighted rather badly.
 

imported_tajmahal

Diamond Member
Jul 9, 2009
9,313
1,157
136
That's some very muddled thinking on your part. It's obvious that strong public interest is at stake in this matter. The HOR has the sole power of impeachment & the right to any and all materials related to such. That's at the highest order of the law, the Constitution itself. Barr's oath demands that he comply with that. His prosecutorial judgement is immaterial. It's not his call to make. If you think it's more complicated than that you've been gaslighted rather badly.
The only thing gassy around here is the Democrats failure to Impeach President Trump or to get off the toilet.
 

fleshconsumed

Diamond Member
Feb 21, 2002
6,022
1,389
136
Impeachment likely ensues and Republicans just may support removal, not because of any Democrat or House reason but that Trump would have entirely broken the Constitution by setting himself as the sole power of government, with others being irrelevant as far as his desires are concerned. I don't think Mitch wants to be the Congressional member that overthrew the Constitution in such a blatant and indefensible manner. He'll go down with the great traitors of history which is not a good look.
What has Mitch done to deserve such a high opinion of him? He refused to issue joint statement on Russian Interference prior to 2016 election. He killed Garland nomination. He completely dismissed Mueller report as "case closed". I don't think Mitch gives a shit about anything except winning at any cost. The only way Mitch supports impeachment is if he senses any danger to GOP if he doesn't. He's 100% self serving bastard.
 
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