Immigration bill

[theeedude]

I am against this bill. Giving these people official status will mean we'll have to pay them minimum wage

 

[0roo0roo]

well considering what i've read on it, it seems to be a compromised bill...not compromise at all. it'll be like the last bill all over again, so i'd probably agree wtih most republicans on it.

did they ever get an extraordinary ability exemption baqck in? i heard it was removed and that was another deal breaker...wtf were they thinking

anyways, the last bill that was like this failed miserably. learn from history peeps...

 

[Socio]

Well the fat lady may not have sung on the absurd bill just yet.

<a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="https://http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/politics/4875500.html">Senate backers pledge to revive immigration bill
Plan's architects predict it could go back to floor before July Fourth recess
</a>

WASHINGTON ? Sifting through the wreckage after the implosion of the Senate immigration bill, backers of the deal voiced optimism Friday that it will be revived within weeks ? if for no other reason than they intend to bring massive pressure on Congress to act.

The architects of the "grand bargain" that would couple increased enforcement with a path to legal status for millions of illegal immigrants vowed not to abandon their fight.

"We're inside the 10-yard line and we've got four downs, and I like our chances," said Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S.C., a key drafter of the bipartisan deal.

Graham and his allies predicted the bill, which failed to clear two key hurdles Thursday, could return to the Senate floor before Congress breaks for the Fourth of July recess.

I hope this thing does not rear its ugly head again!

 

[Jaskalas]

Originally posted by: Genx87
Heh i dont know what to make of this. Right now my fellow conservative imo look like fools about this bill.

Conservatives in their desires to punish law breakers killed this bill and think they have a victory. But what victory is it when we keep the status quo? In effect they just granted these people amnesty. At least this bill had real teeth on employers who hire illegals. And the penalty for breaking the law by crossing into our country was modest but a punishment.
Do fellow conservatives truely believe we have the means to round up ~12 million people, toss them in jail, or send them back? If so, what do you base their fairy tale of a story on?
It also had requirements for a wall being built. I wonder, if this bill fails will such a wall be built? This is our first best chance at comprehensive approach to immigration. I highly doubt if they dont pass it now, it will be passed anytime soon and we keep the status quo. You know, 1-3 million a year crossing our borders, employers having little bite in the laws against hiring an illegal, and possibly no wall.

Congrats I guess?

We have the means to enforce our CURRENT laws Genx. How about we start there? We lack the desire to do so, and we would NOT enforce the new laws either. The only aspect we would enforce of any addition to our current bureaucracy is the amnesty aspect. Everything else is put on for showmanship.

If you take down those who hire the illegals, they won?t have a job. We?ll be of no more use to them than their home country. So drop the strawman of rounding up 12-20 million, if you don?t you?re simply inviting the 100 million that will cross over in our lifetimes.

I?m glad the amnesty bill failed.

 

[rchiu]

Originally posted by: Jaskalas

We have the means to enforce our CURRENT laws Genx. How about we start there? We lack the desire to do so, and we would NOT enforce the new laws either. The only aspect we would enforce of any addition to our current bureaucracy is the amnesty aspect. Everything else is put on for showmanship.

If you take down those who hire the illegals, they won?t have a job. We?ll be of no more use to them than their home country. So drop the strawman of rounding up 12-20 million, if you don?t you?re simply inviting the 100 million that will cross over in our lifetimes.

I?m glad the amnesty bill failed.

Haha, yeah I am sure when those Mexican crossed the boarder, they read US news and politic and make sure there are job opportunities for them. And I am sure you can stop all the illegal hiring, just like you stopped all other crimes in the US.

Yeah, keep on talking and bickering and not do anything about the border, and let illegal immigrants pretty much just walk in and out of the country as they like. I am sure all the illegal immigrants will just magically disappear if you pray to your god hard enough.

 

[babylon5]

Something has to be done. American employers should be the one punished.

For every American employers hire Illegals, government should confiscate their property and business. No more look the other way. Those illegal hiring American employers are criminals, they should be treated as such.

 

[Socio]

Originally posted by: Socio
Well the fat lady may not have sung on the absurd bill just yet.

http://www.chron.com/disp/stor.../politics/4875500.html">Senate backers pledge to revive immigration bill
Plan's architects predict it could go back to floor before July Fourth recess
</a>

WASHINGTON ? Sifting through the wreckage after the implosion of the Senate immigration bill, backers of the deal voiced optimism Friday that it will be revived within weeks ? if for no other reason than they intend to bring massive pressure on Congress to act.

The architects of the "grand bargain" that would couple increased enforcement with a path to legal status for millions of illegal immigrants vowed not to abandon their fight.

"We're inside the 10-yard line and we've got four downs, and I like our chances," said Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S.C., a key drafter of the bipartisan deal.

Graham and his allies predicted the bill, which failed to clear two key hurdles Thursday, could return to the Senate floor before Congress breaks for the Fourth of July recess.

I hope this thing does not rear its ugly head again!

Looking more like it will rear it's ugly head again if Bush has his way.

Bush aiming to win over GOP senators on illegals bill

ASSOCIATED PRESS
President Bush is not giving up on his plan to legalize millions of illegal aliens and will seek to convince skeptical Republican senators that it secures the nation's borders, administration officials said yesterday.

"We need a breakthrough on the Republican side," Mr. Durbin said.
White House spokesman Tony Snow and Commerce Secretary Carlos Gutierrez both predicted an immigration bill would pass once Mr. Bush meets with lawmakers this week and Congress reconsidered the measure.
Mr. Snow said Mr. Bush planned to listen to senators' concerns when he meets with Republican senators for a scheduled lunch tomorrow. Mr. Bush has been placing phone calls to Republican senators from Air Force One during a European trip.

"I think one of the things you do in this is you listen," said Mr. Snow, when asked what Mr. Bush planned to say. "And I think one of the concerns a lot of people have, at least around the country, is they say, 'Look, how can we trust you guys to enforce this? You had a border that's been open for 21 years. How can we trust you?' "
"If you take a look at the bill, it is the largest investment ever in border security," he said.

The are cutting our almost 800 miles of fence we have already been promised and has passed legislation to 200 and hiring 4000 more Border Patrol when a 100,000 Border Patrol agents would not be near enough. It is a large investment alright with the weakest returns possible.

You know I could give Bush the benefit of the doubt with the WMD?s in Iraq but every time he opens his mouth about this bill is just lies and BS on top of lies and BS.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: Jaskalas

Originally posted by: Genx87
Heh i dont know what to make of this. Right now my fellow conservative imo look like fools about this bill.

Conservatives in their desires to punish law breakers killed this bill and think they have a victory. But what victory is it when we keep the status quo? In effect they just granted these people amnesty. At least this bill had real teeth on employers who hire illegals. And the penalty for breaking the law by crossing into our country was modest but a punishment.
Do fellow conservatives truely believe we have the means to round up ~12 million people, toss them in jail, or send them back? If so, what do you base their fairy tale of a story on?
It also had requirements for a wall being built. I wonder, if this bill fails will such a wall be built? This is our first best chance at comprehensive approach to immigration. I highly doubt if they dont pass it now, it will be passed anytime soon and we keep the status quo. You know, 1-3 million a year crossing our borders, employers having little bite in the laws against hiring an illegal, and possibly no wall.

Congrats I guess?

We have the means to enforce our CURRENT laws Genx. How about we start there? We lack the desire to do so, and we would NOT enforce the new laws either. The only aspect we would enforce of any addition to our current bureaucracy is the amnesty aspect. Everything else is put on for showmanship.

If you take down those who hire the illegals, they won?t have a job. We?ll be of no more use to them than their home country. So drop the strawman of rounding up 12-20 million, if you don?t you?re simply inviting the 100 million that will cross over in our lifetimes.

I?m glad the amnesty bill failed.

Our current laws lack any real bite. Do you realize an employer isnt required to truely check the background of these people? The new law is supposed to force employers to verify the legal status of people.

So what you propose is the status quo where these people remain under the radar, still working for business's who dont verify their backgrounds, and an open border.

100 million are currently on track to come within our lifetimes without an immigration policy with any teeth. To think enforcing the status quo will change that is silly. I will tell you who won on this if this bill fails. Big business and the left, big business likes the cheap labor. The left like the current status quo of doing nothing while they flood across open border.

That is why I think the conservatives were made fools of on this debate. The hardcore righties wanted law breakers punished and the left played that up for us to gooble up.
Eventhough the law breakers will be forced to pay a fine to become citizens with this current law, that isnt good enough apparently.

 

[Socio]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Jaskalas

Originally posted by: Genx87
Heh i dont know what to make of this. Right now my fellow conservative imo look like fools about this bill.

Conservatives in their desires to punish law breakers killed this bill and think they have a victory. But what victory is it when we keep the status quo? In effect they just granted these people amnesty. At least this bill had real teeth on employers who hire illegals. And the penalty for breaking the law by crossing into our country was modest but a punishment.
Do fellow conservatives truely believe we have the means to round up ~12 million people, toss them in jail, or send them back? If so, what do you base their fairy tale of a story on?
It also had requirements for a wall being built. I wonder, if this bill fails will such a wall be built? This is our first best chance at comprehensive approach to immigration. I highly doubt if they dont pass it now, it will be passed anytime soon and we keep the status quo. You know, 1-3 million a year crossing our borders, employers having little bite in the laws against hiring an illegal, and possibly no wall.

Congrats I guess?

We have the means to enforce our CURRENT laws Genx. How about we start there? We lack the desire to do so, and we would NOT enforce the new laws either. The only aspect we would enforce of any addition to our current bureaucracy is the amnesty aspect. Everything else is put on for showmanship.

If you take down those who hire the illegals, they won?t have a job. We?ll be of no more use to them than their home country. So drop the strawman of rounding up 12-20 million, if you don?t you?re simply inviting the 100 million that will cross over in our lifetimes.

I?m glad the amnesty bill failed.

Our current laws lack any real bite. Do you realize an employer isnt required to truely check the background of these people? The new law is supposed to force employers to verify the legal status of people.

So what you propose is the status quo where these people remain under the radar, still working for business's who dont verify their backgrounds, and an open border.

100 million are currently on track to come within our lifetimes without an immigration policy with any teeth. To think enforcing the status quo will change that is silly. I will tell you who won on this if this bill fails. Big business and the left, big business likes the cheap labor. The left like the current status quo of doing nothing while they flood across open border.

That is why I think the conservatives were made fools of on this debate. The hardcore righties wanted law breakers punished and the left played that up for us to gooble up.
Eventhough the law breakers will be forced to pay a fine to become citizens with this current law, that isnt good enough apparently.

Actually our laws have plenty of bite the problem is the Federal Government is controlling what is to be enforced and to what extent and that extent is only tough enough to make it look like there doing something every once in a while while when in reality they intentionally want to do as little as possible.

 

[imported_Shivetya]

Originally posted by: Blackjack200
You can talk about the law all you want, but where is the morality question? How do you justify morally, not legally, sending someone back to a life of poverty? A place that was so bad they ran from it.

because its not our problem to solve it.

plus what we define as poverty is not always true when applied elsewhere.

American poor as defined by various measures are better off than many European middle class. So what is poor?


I guess it depends on how generous you feel with someone else's money.


I have nothing against people escaping poverty, just don't break the law to do it. We have a process, follow it. If you don't respect us enough to go through the legal way then don't ask me to join a pity party.

 

[imported_Shivetya]

Originally posted by: babylon5
Something has to be done. American employers should be the one punished.

For every American employers hire Illegals, government should confiscate their property and business. No more look the other way. Those illegal hiring American employers are criminals, they should be treated as such.

what about local and state governments who purposely block any action against illegals?

Why punish PRIVATE ENTERPRISE when government agencies are openly flaunting the same law?


Why not get people who sell them housing?

 

[Fern]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Jaskalas

Originally posted by: Genx87
Heh i dont know what to make of this. Right now my fellow conservative imo look like fools about this bill.

Conservatives in their desires to punish law breakers killed this bill and think they have a victory. But what victory is it when we keep the status quo? In effect they just granted these people amnesty. At least this bill had real teeth on employers who hire illegals. And the penalty for breaking the law by crossing into our country was modest but a punishment.
Do fellow conservatives truely believe we have the means to round up ~12 million people, toss them in jail, or send them back? If so, what do you base their fairy tale of a story on?
It also had requirements for a wall being built. I wonder, if this bill fails will such a wall be built? This is our first best chance at comprehensive approach to immigration. I highly doubt if they dont pass it now, it will be passed anytime soon and we keep the status quo. You know, 1-3 million a year crossing our borders, employers having little bite in the laws against hiring an illegal, and possibly no wall.

Congrats I guess?

We have the means to enforce our CURRENT laws Genx. How about we start there? We lack the desire to do so, and we would NOT enforce the new laws either. The only aspect we would enforce of any addition to our current bureaucracy is the amnesty aspect. Everything else is put on for showmanship.

If you take down those who hire the illegals, they won?t have a job. We?ll be of no more use to them than their home country. So drop the strawman of rounding up 12-20 million, if you don?t you?re simply inviting the 100 million that will cross over in our lifetimes.

I?m glad the amnesty bill failed.

Our current laws lack any real bite. Do you realize an employer isnt required to truely check the background of these people? The new law is supposed to force employers to verify the legal status of people.

So what you propose is the status quo where these people remain under the radar, still working for business's who dont verify their backgrounds, and an open border.

100 million are currently on track to come within our lifetimes without an immigration policy with any teeth. To think enforcing the status quo will change that is silly. I will tell you who won on this if this bill fails. Big business and the left, big business likes the cheap labor. The left like the current status quo of doing nothing while they flood across open border.

That is why I think the conservatives were made fools of on this debate. The hardcore righties wanted law breakers punished and the left played that up for us to gooble up.
Eventhough the law breakers will be forced to pay a fine to become citizens with this current law, that isnt good enough apparently.

Genx87,

This bill was nothing more than Congress's typical effort at "solving" a problem. "We got a problem of 12 million illegal immigrants?. OK, let's make them LEGAL and now the problem's solved, Right?'.

We went through this same crap about 20 yrs ago. An "amnesty" bill to legalize them coupled with border control measures. Gee, what happened? They are all legal, able to pul in their relatives etc, yet we still have no cotrol of our borders.

I've lived in several other countries, and traveled to many more, everybody else takes measures to control their borders. Everybody else tries to implement immigration control measures.

The current state of affairs with regard to our immigration control is terrible. It's unfair and lacks any rational basis (emotional basis, maybe). Unless you live in Mexico you've got very little chance. But that's only because the Mexicans have a tremendous advantage, over any other foreigners, due to their geographical proximity.

How about WE decide how many immigrants we have per year, and utilize some mechanism of our choice in allocating those slots to "wanna be" immigrants. Why do +90% need to be Mexican? What about other South Americans (who get the crap beat out of them if they try to Mexico's southern border, plus have to pay bribes etc), can't they get a chance? What about Carribean people, Asians, Indians & East Europeans?

It's our right and responsibility to decide who & how many immigrate here each year.

The staus quo, which always allows us to choose to some extent among the illegals already here, is better than waving the "magic Z visa wand" and declaring everyone suddenly legal.

Moreover, many of us belive it's all just BS unless & until we get real border control.

Fern

 

[Fern]

Originally posted by: Blackjack200
You can talk about the law all you want, but where is the morality question? How do you justify morally, not legally, sending someone back to a life of poverty? A place that was so bad they ran from it.

For the looongest time, political persecution was allowed for immigration, "poverty' has not been. This has been contention of Haitian immigartion proponents, they complain bitterly about treatment afforded Cubam immigrants.

How are you really helping that country by just letting many of them come here? Aren't there many many other ways to help? What are the World Bank, IMF, Peace Corp, Docters Without Borders etc for? If they're not effective, help make them more effective.

Why not just send money? (Oh, and we do that btw).

Can anyone really argue that the USA can hope to solve the world's poverty by just letting all the "poor" come here? Of course not.

Originally posted by: babylon5
Something has to be done. American employers should be the one punished.

For every American employers hire Illegals, government should confiscate their property and business. No more look the other way. Those illegal hiring American employers are criminals, they should be treated as such.

If it's a big employer, systematically hiring illegals at a low wage to take advantage of them, fine.

Otherwise, no. Employers do not yet have any tools to determine who's legal or not. Here's another area where the US governemtn is way behind.

Are you aware that a federal judge recently ruled that no one other than the US gov can make a determination as to who is here illegally or not? Now how do you punish employers given this state of affairs?

Then lets consider the absolute absurdity of that. How come when illegals are arrested, the US gov basically just releases them? Even if criminal? Plus, you realize when an employer questions a "Hispanic" persons immigration staus they open themselves up to lawsuits about discrimination?

It all needs to begin with border control. The "ball's" in the government's court.

Fern

 

[Socio]

Anyone watch O Reilly Factor tonight?

You know what the US Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid calls illegal immigrants?

Undocumented Americans! :shocked:

And the Dems don't want to call what is in the bill Amnesty, yea right!

 

[Socio]

Now Bush is trying to buy votes to bring back and pass the immigration bill;

Bush Pledges Tougher Border Security

Bush got behind a proposal to set aside money collected through fees and penalties for tougher border security and workplace enforcement. Two Republican senators, John Kyl of Arizona and Lindsey Graham of South Carolina, have proposed such an amendment.

Bush said the measure would "show the American people that we're going to do our jobs of securing this border once and for all."

The provision would immediately divert $4.4 billion toward border security, with that amount to be paid back once new fees are in place. The point would be to ensure that border security would not be subject to the whims of the yearly budget negotiations.

Should be noted that both Kyl and Graham are among the biggest supporters of the immigration bill and that alone removes all credibility of this gesture.

It also does not specify how this $4.4 billion other than look good paper is to be used which is likely not at all. This is nothing but a ploy to bring back the worst piece of legislation in US history and buy votes to pass it.

 

[Socio]

Looks like the Bill will be back next week and now they have bought off enough Reps to get it passed by next Friday;

Majority Leader Reid Close to Reviving Senate Immigration Bill

WASHINGTON ? Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid will approve a new deal on immigration on Thursday and move to bring the once-dead legislation back to the Senate floor next week, Democratic sources told FOX News.

Republican leaders have promised to produce enough votes to curtail debate on the bill and proceed to final passage. Last week's impasse arose after Reid twice failed to collect the 60 votes necessary to limit debate and move toward final passage.

With the GOP votes in hand and a finite list of amendments to be offered by 11 Democratic and 11 Republican senators, Democratic sources said Reid is now determined to see whether the legislation can survive the amendment process intact. If it does, the Senate could vote on final passage of the bill by next Friday, Democratic sources said.

 

[Summitdrinker]

If the conservative republicans wimp out on this and fail to make a real stand, why should they be allowed to exists, there done, really the republican party is nothing anymore as a whole, if the can?t stand up for anything