Immigration bill

[babylon5]

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: babylon5
You don't want people to call illegal immigration with is proper name, because you know it's ILLEGAL.
Based on Rainsford logic, murder can be legal. robbery can be legal, if you make them legal.

Pro-Illegal like you in media likes to call this issue with blanket term "immigration". Sorry, it's "Illegal immigration". People who applied to immigrate
at US embassy overseas, waited years to come, aren't the same group of people Congress want to give amnesty to. Legal Immigrants don't benfit
from this, but ILLEGALs who cute in line, are.

It's an insult to LEGAL immigrants who wait in line. Legal immigrants waiting in line are being cheated. And you're advocating it.

And by your logic, slavery should still be legal because that's how the law once read. Arguing for something based entirely on how the current law reads suggests you have no other argument, you should be able to argue that it SHOULD be illegal, not simply that it IS illegal. If you want to debate murder, *I* could certainly come up with a better argument against it than "it's illegal". This is not an argument in favor of changing immigration laws, but it IS an argument against keeping them the same just because that's how they are now.

There are plenty of reason why Illegal Immigrant is not good for America, and it has been stated in other threads here over and over again. It is ILLEGAL, and it is also cost American taxpayers millions of dollars. You were writing about how "It's only illegal immigration because of how the current law reads, the issue is immigration, the proper law could make it perfectly legal." Wow.

By law on the book now, people crossing into our border without going thru INS is ILLEGAL. No matter how you try to justify it, it is ILLEGAL, breaking US Law.

BTW, you don't want to respond to my other parts of comment to you. Interesting. I quote it once again for you:


"Pro-Illegal like you in media likes to call this issue with blanket term "immigration". Sorry, it's "Illegal immigration". People who applied to immigrate
at US embassy overseas, waited years to come, aren't the same group of people Congress want to give amnesty to. Legal Immigrants don't benfit
from this, but ILLEGALs who cute in line, are.

It's an insult to LEGAL immigrants who wait in line. Legal immigrants waiting in line are being cheated. And you're advocating it."

 

[imported_Shivetya]

Close the borders and throw them out when found.

Remove Federal Funding from Cities and States that do not comply.

Too many politicians "feel good" with MY MONEY by coddling illegals and thats just the problem, its not their money they are throwing away so they can get a warm fuzzy.

I will not vote for any candidate that supports this or similar amnesty bill. Unfortunately because of the travesty of this bill it has superceded my desire for the tax system to be reformed and the government made smaller.

We cannot ask people to abide by our laws if we let them flaunt them right off the bat.

We are a country of law. You may do as you want provided it does not negatively affect others and this negatively affects us and future generations

 

[Socio]

It is looking like this bill will be a moot point in 2008 as it may pass very soon, like this week which will be a travesty.

Immigration bill gaining momentum in Senate

WASHINGTON ? After a week at home with their constituents, the Senate architects of a delicate immigration compromise are increasingly convinced they will hold together this week to pass a sweeping overhaul of the nation's immigration laws, with momentum building behind one unifying theme: Today's immigration system is too broken to go unaddressed.

If this passes we in the southern most affected states need to start offering free one way Amtrak trips to the Northeast for all the immigrants coming here "for jobs"

I think we need to show our appreciation to Ted Kennedy and his loyal constituents so Massachusetts should get the first 5 Million.

 

[kapoww]

^
I like how they cite only the Washington Post-ABC News poll as their reference. They forgot to throw in the other numerous polls that are against it. The media is trying to force these fake positives down our throats and trying to make the "immigrants" sound like they're all hardworking and honest people seeking the American dream. You think they really give a damn about our country, our people and our way of life? I'm sure they're very grateful that they can make a buck to send back to what they'll always consider their home whilst blatantly showing us how proud they are from where they came from.

I hope this will push the American people to the edge and force our voices to be heard instead of letting these illegals demand and receive whatever they feel they're entitled to at the time.
I know I won't be welcoming these criminals with open arms when the US pushes the insta-legal button. Get in line and do it the right way and America will consider you one of it's own.

So yeah, this is THE issue that decides my vote.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: Fern

Originally posted by: loki8481
not really a factor for me.

maybe I've got a weird perspective but I really just see immigration as a cali / south west US problem. personally, I love having access to great mexican food.

Yeah, that's a bit wierd

I'm in the Southeast, and the ilegal (mostly Mexican) are getting quite a high profile. Down here the Baptist "frown" on alchoholic beverages, yet the Mexicans seem to have a cultural affinity for drinking and driving (latino/Hispanic advocates words, not mine). It doesn't take too many local teens kiled by a (Mexican illegal) drunk driver to get their attention.

Some end up dating the local young women, unfortunately some (illegal Mexican) men think beating women is OK. More bad attention.

We're having a lot violent crime (stabbings. shooting etc) in local overcrowded trailer parks by guess who? This stuff is all in the news, every day.

We just had a huge peoperty tax increase, this is especially problematic for the long time locals (blue collar types) as they often have large tracts of inhereted land ("land rich, cash poor"). A lot of this increase stems from the need for construction of new schools. If you have a kid in school. it's hard not to notice the dramatic & substantial increase in Hispanic kids (a large number of whom can't speak English).

Same thing for our health care institutions. Long lines with piles of Hispanics, Hospitals are struggling with Medicaid costs for these people. Oh, and in our state, Medicare/Medicaid is pushed down to the county level (thus increasing local real estate taxes even more).

Before US gov entitlement programs became all the vogue, there couldn't be so much financial opposition to ilegal immigration. Nor so much a cause for it.

Fern

Hey Fern you're buying into a lot of unfounded stereotypes here, or accepting some unfounded stereotypes of those around you. (doesn't matter who said it)

I have seen no evidence that Hispanics are charged with DUI significantly more then any other racial group, and I have also seen no evidence that they are more prone to domestic violence. Do you have any support for either one of those? If not, then it seems that the people in your area are far more concerned with the fact that they are Hispanic then what crimes they do.

In addition, I have just recently done a lot of research on this for something I had to write, and levels of entitlement programs and social services play zero statistically significant role in levels of immigration. It's not even on the radar.

You have some certainly valid objections with property taxes and health care costs, as low skill immigrants do certainly use those at a higher level then they put back in, but the objections about higher levels of DUI, domestic violence, and impetus for immigration based on social services I have either not seen evidence for (the first two) or have seen evidence directly contradicting it.(the last one)

 

[Fern]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: Fern

Originally posted by: loki8481
-snip-.

Yeah, that's a bit wierd

I'm in the Southeast, and the ilegal (mostly Mexican) are getting quite a high profile. -snip-Fern

Hey Fern you're buying into a lot of unfounded stereotypes here, or accepting some unfounded stereotypes of those around you. (doesn't matter who said it)

Look again, please. I'm just saying that they are popping up in the news a lot - so you don't have to be in the SW to have plenty in your town, plus those that are in trouble (thus in the news) are attracting a lot of attention to themselves (and their prevelence). In this mornings paper, a dozen people were on the front page of the local section for meth drug busts, 1/2 were Hispanic (among various intent to sell drugs, there were (no) drivers licenses and gun charges etc).

I have seen no evidence that Hispanics are charged with DUI significantly more then any other racial group, and I have also seen no evidence that they are more prone to domestic violence. Do you have any support for either one of those? If not, then it seems that the people in your area are far more concerned with the fact that they are Hispanic then what crimes they do.

Again, I make no claim other than there IS a problem is areas outside of the SW. No where did I say "all Mexicans are bad etc".


In addition, I have just recently done a lot of research on this for something I had to write, and levels of entitlement programs and social services play zero statistically significant role in levels of immigration. It's not even on the radar.

I ain't buying it. Too much anedotal evidence from illegals own remarks. Even if not's a factor in their decision to immigrate here, it sure is a factor in many citizens; opposition to it. Econmonic/financial reasons has never been permited for non-mexican groups, Haitians are routinely rounded up and sent back, unlike Cubans.

You have some certainly valid objections with property taxes and health care costs, as low skill immigrants do certainly use those at a higher level then they put back in, but the objections about higher levels of DUI, domestic violence, and impetus for immigration based on social services I have either not seen evidence for (the first two) or have seen evidence directly contradicting it.(the last one)

Yeah, last time I checked medicaid costs for illegals were put at $2 Billion annually (that is from 2002 numbers IIRC). Our hopsital here did have numbers on it (I don't have them handy), it was causing a great financial loss, the president/CEO was fired because he coundn't control it.
[/b]

 

[EagleKeeper]

Immigration bill fails key test-vote

Looks like the immigration bill did not pass the sniff test.

A fragile bipartisan compromise that would legalize millions of unlawful immigrants suffered a setback Thursday when it failed a test vote in the Senate, leaving its prospects uncertain.

 

[wiin]

The illegal amnesty bill will help democrats. Most of these people will be on welfare, if not already, and which party is a socialist party? Demorat. These people will want to keep democrats in power so they can continue with their free lunch.

It is interesting to note that the MSMs are not covering the amnesty bill. ABC, NBC and CBS are not covering it and the local channels aren't carrying it either.

What is needed is not an amnesty bill but enforcement of existing laws. Congress apparently does not beleive that we should enforce our laws. Coburn submitted an ammendment requiring the government to enforce existing laws but was defeated by a 42(yes)-54(No) vote.


Immigration Bill Loopholes

 

[Fern]

If votes start changing for it, I'll be looking for some "vote buying" err I mean Pork.

Even if it passes the Senate, I (hope) think the House won't, thus it will fail to become law.

If it does pass, I see a lot of new Congresspersons next year. And a lot of unemployed old ones.

I sense this isue will overshadow Iraq in the Pres election.

Fern

 

[Vic]

What is a "deal breaker" issue? You should not be voting for candidates on the basis of any single issue.

 

[Darthvoy]

Originally posted by: Vic
What is a "deal breaker" issue? You should not be voting for candidates on the basis of any single issue.

but that's what the Republicans/Democrats want. I guess it is easier to unite people and get them to vote for you when there is only one issue that "makes it or breaks it".

 

[Fern]

Originally posted by: Darthvoy

Originally posted by: Vic
What is a "deal breaker" issue? You should not be voting for candidates on the basis of any single issue.

but that's what the Republicans/Democrats want. I guess it is easier to unite people and get them to vote for you when there is only one issue that "makes it or breaks it".

Yeah, but's Repub v. Dems.

A "deal breaker" seems more relevant when in talking about the primaries. I've voted in 6 or 7, never seen any candidate who I agreed with 100%.

So, I prioritze the issues. If they agree on #1, I move on to #2 and so on. So, for me deal breaker means "high priority" issue.

Given all the policy differences between the major parties, the actual Pres election is usually fairly easy to choose, at least for me. Appearance & style are so far down the list they fall off the radar screen. I don't care if it's a fat bald guy, or a Black woman, I vote issues.

Fern

 

[Ryan]

I want a politician to tell me the specifics - ideally, I want a candidate who supports building a giant muthaf*cking wall; one that is covered in barb wire, and extends 20 feet into the ground from border to border - Inspect every vehicle that passes the border, commercial trucks included - invest in more border guards, dogs, and detection technology. That is REAL immigration reform.

Don't just tell me you want to secure the border - that could mean anything in the polluted mind of a politician.

 

[piasabird]

I think too many elected officials care more about corporations than people. I dont think the voters want amnesty. The voters want security first. Only when we have security can we discuss what to do next.

 

[Kwaipie]

In a time where only 5% of containers entering the country are inspected (actually, I think that number is high) and the last major communist country on the planet has our "Most Favored Nation" status I think we have bigger things to worry about than Paco and Sanchez washing dishes at your local favorite restaurant. By and large, these people are trying to feed their families back home. I would do the same damn thing and no fence would stop me. The vast majority of these illegals are good god fearing catholics taking care of their families. We need health care reform to prevent these people from having to use the emergency room and let them live their lives. Give them identification cards so they can start paying taxes, that will make them more civic minded.

Don't forget, $11,000,000 per hour is being spent on your other big fear, Iraq. 3500 dead and counting. Ain't 'merica great?

 

[Darthvoy]

Originally posted by: Kwaipie
In a time where only 5% of containers entering the country are inspected (actually, I think that number is high) and the last major communist country on the planet has our "Most Favored Nation" status I think we have bigger things to worry about than Paco and Sanchez washing dishes at your local favorite restaurant. By and large, these people are trying to feed their families back home. I would do the same damn thing and no fence would stop me. The vast majority of these illegals are good god fearing catholics taking care of their families. We need health care reform to prevent these people from having to use the emergency room and let them live their lives. Give them identification cards so they can start paying taxes, that will make them more civic minded.

Don't forget, $11,000,000 per hour is being spent on your other big fear, Iraq. 3500 dead and counting. Ain't 'merica great?

that's exactly my point. The war in Iraq has already cost more than all the illegal immigrants in the US. If people were really concerned about the cost to the country one should look at Iraq first. I am not saying that the immigration issue should be left alone, but there are things that people are overlooking because of it. Some here on this board believe that giving amnesty to immigrant will be the end of times.

 

[OutHouse]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Amnesty is not a good option at all.

Close the borders and enforce what was supposed to be enforced to begin with.

I believe anything else out of the polticians mouths is just that, hot air and they will not do anything except amnesty.

:thumbsup:

 

[babylon5]

Originally posted by: Darthvoy

that's exactly my point. The war in Iraq has already cost more than all the illegal immigrants in the US. If people were really concerned about the cost to the country one should look at Iraq first. I am not saying that the immigration issue should be left alone, but there are things that people are overlooking because of it. Some here on this board believe that giving amnesty to immigrant will be the end of times.

Most Americans ARE against Iraq war. People concern about our soldiers dying. That is why Bush ratings are low. His stand on immigration is another reason. Most Americans are against war, and Amnesty.

 

[kapoww]

Looking good.. for the anti-ILLEGAL immigration camp anyways

No amnesty! :thumbsup:

 

[GuitarDaddy]

Yes it will, most definately

 

[Genx87]

Heh i dont know what to make of this. Right now my fellow conservative imo look like fools about this bill.

Conservatives in their desires to punish law breakers killed this bill and think they have a victory. But what victory is it when we keep the status quo? In effect they just granted these people amnesty. At least this bill had real teeth on employers who hire illegals. And the penalty for breaking the law by crossing into our country was modest but a punishment.
Do fellow conservatives truely believe we have the means to round up ~12 million people, toss them in jail, or send them back? If so, what do you base their fairy tale of a story on?
It also had requirements for a wall being built. I wonder, if this bill fails will such a wall be built? This is our first best chance at comprehensive approach to immigration. I highly doubt if they dont pass it now, it will be passed anytime soon and we keep the status quo. You know, 1-3 million a year crossing our borders, employers having little bite in the laws against hiring an illegal, and possibly no wall.

Congrats I guess?

 

[hellokeith]

Originally posted by: Sinsear

Originally posted by: BoomerD

The "Anchor Baby" provision needs to be clarified to state that ONLY children born here of LEGALLY immigrated parents are citizens, and then, ONLY if the parents ask for it.

Yep; the anchor baby thing needs to go, preferably sooner than later.

I have no problem whatsoever with allowing that child to return to the USA as a citizen, one they are age 18. But if they are caught/deported, then the penalties BoomerD need to apply.

@BoomerD - It's good to see both Republicans and Democrats opposing this bill. Just goes to show how little support there really is for this thing in the US citizenry.

 

[hellokeith]

Immigration bill suffers a big setback

By JULIE HIRSCHFELD DAVIS, Associated Press Writer
6/7/07

WASHINGTON - A broad immigration bill to legalize millions of people in the U.S. unlawfully suffered a stunning setback in the Senate Thursday, costing President Bush perhaps his best opportunity to win a top domestic priority. The bipartisan compromise championed by the president failed a crucial test when it could not attract even a simple majority for an effort to speed its passage.

Supporters could muster only 45 votes to limit debate and speed the bill to final passage, 15 short of what was needed on the procedural maneuver. Fifty senators voted against cutting off debate.

Most Republicans voted to block Democrats' efforts to advance the measure.

Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (news, bio, voting record), D-Nev., who had made no secret of his distaste for parts of the bill, quickly pulled it from the floor and moved on to other business, leaving its future uncertain. He insisted that the bill was not dead, but a crowded Senate calendar complicates its prospects.

"I, even though disappointed, look forward to passing this bill," Reid said.

Sen. Mitch McConnell (news, bio, voting record), R-Ky., the minority leader, said Democrats tried to rush the bill.

"I think we're giving up on this bill too soon," McConnell said.

The legislation would tighten borders and institute a new system to prevent employers from hiring undocumented workers, in addition to giving up to 12 million illegal immigrants a pathway to legal status.

Conceived by an improbable coalition that nicknamed the deal a "grand bargain," the measure exposed deep rifts within both parties and is loathed by most GOP conservatives.

All but seven Republicans voted against ending debate, with many arguing they needed more time to make the bill tougher with tighter border security measures and a more arduous legalization process for unlawful immigrants.

All but 11 Democrats supported the move, but they, too, were holding their noses at provisions of the bill. Many of them argued it makes second-class citizens of a new crop of temporary workers and rips apart families by prioritizing employability over blood ties in future immigration.

Still, they had argued that the measure, on balance, was worth advancing.

"We can all find different aspects of this legislation that we differ with," said Sen. Edward M. Kennedy of Massachusetts, the leading Democratic architect of the bill.

He held out hope after the vote that the measure would survive. "Doing nothing is not an alternative," Kennedy said. "This issue isn't going away."

"I believe that we will yet succeed," said Sen. Arlen Specter (news, bio, voting record), R-Pa., a framer of the bill who was one of few in his party who backed the procedural move.

The defeat for the compromise was the culmination of an extraordinary week of ups and downs for the contentious immigration measure, which mirrored the tumultuous process that went into crafting it.

Kennedy partnered with Sen. Jon Kyl (news, bio, voting record), R-Ariz., and several centrists to craft a bill that melded conservative themes of tougher border security and limiting immigration with the liberal goal of legalizing those who are in the U.S. unlawfully and welcoming future arrivals.

Man oh man I hope this is the death blow to this attrocity of legislation. It is outrageous how the President, Congress, and the lib media try to spin this as "Immigration reform", "immigrants", "costing President Bush perhaps his best opportunity to win a top domestic priority" as if law-abiding US citizens were fooled into thinking this has one cent worth of effect on legal immigration. What this is about is amnesty for lawbreakers, and it would encourage a massive wave of illegal border crossings, as well as set yet another precedent for future amnesty bills which accomplish nothing and make America a second-rate nation.

So let me be very clear here:

President Bush and Congressional supporters of this bill - You are wrong, this is about amnesty for illegal aliens, and US citizens don't want it and aren't fooled by your politico-speak. Secure our borders now. Reform our legal immigration system. Enforce the laws already on the books, which includes deportation of known illegal aliens and fines/jail time for employers of illegals.

Lib media - Stop trying to turn this into something it isn't. Report the facts, not your liberal biased agenda. They are law-breaking illegal aliens. This legislation has nothing to do with legal immigration. And no, this doesn't mean that there will be massive roundups of illegals. It means that when the illegals see the jobs dry up and enforcement taking place, they will leave peacefully on their own accord.

 

[PieIsAwesome]

Originally posted by: hellokeith

Originally posted by: Sinsear

Originally posted by: BoomerD

The "Anchor Baby" provision needs to be clarified to state that ONLY children born here of LEGALLY immigrated parents are citizens, and then, ONLY if the parents ask for it.

Yep; the anchor baby thing needs to go, preferably sooner than later.

I have no problem whatsoever with allowing that child to return to the USA as a citizen, one they are age 18. But if they are caught/deported, then the penalties BoomerD need to apply.

@BoomerD - It's good to see both Republicans and Democrats opposing this bill. Just goes to show how little support there really is for this thing in the US citizenry.

What would be the point of them returning at age 18?

If they leave for a foreign country, are raised in that foreign country, then they will become a citizen of that country and not American.

Which brings me to my next point, being that wherever the parents of an individual are born or even wherever that individual is born along with being "legal" or "illegal" are not definitive or even necessarily relevant in deciding whether someone is or isn't American. If a person is raised in the U.S., in American culture, and has lived there the vast majority of their lives, then they are American, regardless of wherever they or their parents were born, and regardless of whether they are illegal or not. They may not even know Spanish.

 

[Sinsear]

Originally posted by: hellokeith

What this is about is amnesty for lawbreakers, and it would encourage a massive wave of illegal border crossings, as well as set yet another precedent for future amnesty bills which accomplish nothing and make America a second-rate nation.

Precisely; even with all the spin around it, it is simply amnesty, rewarding people for breaking our laws and invading our country :|.

I sure hope this is the beginning of the death march for this bill. Let's try and get a bill instead for better security at the borders.