Immigration bill

[techs]

Is the immigration bill likely to be a "deal breaker" in your Presidential vote?
I wonder what the pollsters for the candidates are finding out. It must get very complicated since the number of single issue "deal breakers" overlap i.e abortion, gun control, Iraq, gay marriage.
So if a candidate comes out in support of the currently proposed immigration bill and holds to it will it affect your vote?



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The title of thread has been change slightly to encompas the current political situation and then consolidate threads on the immigration bill into one area.

The original thread title was

Poll- Immigration bill an issue that will decide your vote for President

Anandtech Moderator

 

[techs]

I generally like the new forum look, but the poll results are difficult to read.

 

[Rainsford]

Immigration is an important issue in how I feel about the candidates, but I don't think the immigration BILL is a deciding factor for me. While I am a big fan of more open immigration, I think the bill has its flaws and even a politician who is in favor of more immigration might oppose the bill. I support the general idea way more than I support this specific iteration of it.

 

[dmcowen674]

Amnesty is not a good option at all.

Close the borders and enforce what was supposed to be enforced to begin with.

I believe anything else out of the polticians mouths is just that, hot air and they will not do anything except amnesty.

 

[babylon5]

Illegal Immigration Issue.

 

[Theb]

Illegal immigration is a crappy complicated problem so I expect any bill meant to address it to also be crappy and complicated.
The only way an immigration bill would help decide my vote would be if someone came up with a feasible way to solve the problem, or if a proposal was just absolutely horrible like giving money to La Raza.

 

[Jaskalas]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Amnesty is not a good option at all.

Close the borders and enforce what was supposed to be enforced to begin with.

I believe anything else out of the polticians mouths is just that, hot air and they will not do anything except amnesty.

:thumbsup:

Close the borders and throw the employers in jail!

Let me say it again, THROW THE EMPLOYERS IN JAIL! Doing so would merely be enforcing current law. Adding onto the current laws without enforcing them will merely lead to more laws that are ignored.

 

[Jaskalas]

Originally posted by: techs
Is the immigration bill likely to be a "deal breaker" in your Presidential vote?
I wonder what the pollsters for the candidates are finding out. It must get very complicated since the number of single issue "deal breakers" overlap i.e abortion, gun control, Iraq, gay marriage.
So if a candidate comes out in support of the currently proposed immigration bill and holds to it will it affect your vote?

Their stance on immigration is partially my reason for supporting Newt/Fred.

It will be my highest priority issue.

*edit

Yes, we need better looking poll results!

 

[techs]

Oh darn! I forgot to specify whether illegal aliens could vote in the poll or not.
I guess that's a topic for another poll.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: babylon5
Illegal Immigration Issue.

It's only illegal immigration because of how the current law reads, the issue is immigration, the proper law could make it perfectly legal. When the NRA is bitching about a gun ban, do they call it the "illegal gun ownership issue"?

 

[Jaskalas]

Originally posted by: techs
Oh darn! I forgot to specify whether illegal aliens could vote in the poll or not.
I guess that's a topic for another poll.

Do you like voting? At over a million immigrants pouring in every single year - how long will it be before you're the minority vote in your own home? Already happened in many parts of CA and will be state-wide within the next 10 years.

 

[babylon5]

You don't want people to call illegal immigration with is proper name, because you know it's ILLEGAL.
Based on Rainsford logic, murder can be legal. robbery can be legal, if you make them legal.

Pro-Illegal like you in media likes to call this issue with blanket term "immigration". Sorry, it's "Illegal immigration". People who applied to immigrate
at US embassy overseas, waited years to come, aren't the same group of people Congress want to give amnesty to. Legal Immigrants don't benfit
from this, but ILLEGALs who cute in line, are.

It's an insult to LEGAL immigrants who wait in line. Legal immigrants waiting in line are being cheated. And you're advocating it.

 

[babylon5]

Remind me of some pro-Illegal groups in Florida find the term "Illegal" offensive. Like the N*word.

 

[trenchfoot]

the problem i have with anything coming from the politicians up on the hill in dealing with immigration reform is that practically all the legislation that's got a chance of passing is only meant to pander to the illegals themselves and the businesses that employ them.

the dems are groveling at the feet of the illegals and their relatives for votes. the repubs are doing the same for both higher profits through cheap illegal labor and to keep those potential votes from swinging away to the other side of the aisle.

what's missing from practically all of the proposed legislation is language concentrating on resolving the root causes of illegal immigration: porous borders and businesses who employ illegals getting a wink and a nod from congress and the bush administration that it's all good.

all the legislation that does not include resolving the root causes of this problem is merely an exercise in crabwalking around those causes and perpetuating them ad inifitum.

i wonder how many illegals will throw in the towel and go back home if the laws already on the books are enforced with the same zeal and fervor as those other related issues dealing with "homeland security".

i wonder how many businesses will fail as a direct cause of the illegals not being "exploitable" any more. or how many of them will accept losing those illegally gained excess profits and adjust accordingly.

i wonder how low the middle class will go before they fully realize the extent of their approaching demise and how keeping things the way they are is detrimental to their survival as a class.

i wonder how many legal immigrants will benefit both socially and economically if the laws were enforced and supplemented with more legislation meant to put bigger teeth into them.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: tweaker2
the problem i have with anything coming from the politicians up on the hill in dealing with immigration reform is that practically all the legislation that's got a chance of passing is only meant to pander to the illegals themselves and the businesses that employ them.

the dems are groveling at the feet of the illegals and their relatives for votes. the repubs are doing the same for both higher profits through cheap illegal labor and to keep those potential votes from swinging away to the other side of the aisle.

what's missing from practically all of the proposed legislation is language concentrating on resolving the root causes of illegal immigration: porous borders and businesses who employ illegals getting a wink and a nod from congress and the bush administration that it's all good.

all the legislation that does not include resolving the root causes of this problem is merely an exercise in crabwalking around those causes and perpetuating them ad inifitum.

i wonder how many illegals will throw in the towel and go back home if the laws already on the books are enforced with the same zeal and fervor as those other related issues dealing with "homeland security".

i wonder how many businesses will fail as a direct cause of the illegals not being "exploitable" any more. or how many of them will accept losing those illegally gained excess profits and adjust accordingly.

i wonder how low the middle class will go before they fully realize the extent of their approaching demise and how keeping things the way they are is detrimental to their survival as a class.

i wonder how many legal immigrants will benefit both socially and economically if the laws were enforced and supplemented with more legislation meant to put bigger teeth into them.

You know that illegal immigration actually helps the middle class, right? Middle class Americans (by and large) do not work in the low skill jobs where immigrant pressure drives wages down. Not too many software engineers are having their jobs taken by someone who just hopped the fence. In fact the middle class actually gains from cheaper prices, etc.

If you, or someone you know relies on one of those immigrant saturated jobs then I can certainly see why you would be mad over the situation. If you are angry at the exploitation of immigrants, that's another good reason. Maybe taxes, or the further impoverishment of America's own native lower classes, sure. To say that the middle class is being destroyed by illegal immigrants is not accurate though, no matter what Lou Dobbs says.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: babylon5
You don't want people to call illegal immigration with is proper name, because you know it's ILLEGAL.
Based on Rainsford logic, murder can be legal. robbery can be legal, if you make them legal.

Pro-Illegal like you in media likes to call this issue with blanket term "immigration". Sorry, it's "Illegal immigration". People who applied to immigrate
at US embassy overseas, waited years to come, aren't the same group of people Congress want to give amnesty to. Legal Immigrants don't benfit
from this, but ILLEGALs who cute in line, are.

It's an insult to LEGAL immigrants who wait in line. Legal immigrants waiting in line are being cheated. And you're advocating it.

And by your logic, slavery should still be legal because that's how the law once read. Arguing for something based entirely on how the current law reads suggests you have no other argument, you should be able to argue that it SHOULD be illegal, not simply that it IS illegal. If you want to debate murder, *I* could certainly come up with a better argument against it than "it's illegal". This is not an argument in favor of changing immigration laws, but it IS an argument against keeping them the same just because that's how they are now.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: Jaskalas

Originally posted by: techs
Oh darn! I forgot to specify whether illegal aliens could vote in the poll or not.
I guess that's a topic for another poll.

Do you like voting? At over a million immigrants pouring in every single year - how long will it be before you're the minority vote in your own home? Already happened in many parts of CA and will be state-wide within the next 10 years.

That's ridiculous, I already live in a country where my viewpoint is frequently the minority one...Bush got re-elected in 2004 despite the fact that I didn't support his re-election. We have no inherent right in a democracy to insure that our opinion is always the majority one.

But in any case, you're assuming that all non-Mexican immigrants vote exactly the same way and all Mexican immigrants vote as one block. I hardly think I should have to point out how silly that is. After all, while you might be a huge, dyed in the wool conservative, *I'm* not...more immigrants will almost certainly make many of my views more popular.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: babylon5
Remind me of some pro-Illegal groups in Florida find the term "Illegal" offensive. Like the N*word.

It's not offensive so much as it is stupid. Arguing against something by saying it's illegal is a circular argument. Things are illegal because they are harmful in some way...if there is no better reason for it to be illegal than the fact that it's illegal, it might be time to reconsider the law. The law is not the absolute arbiter of right and wrong, anyone who thinks so would have made a fine slave catcher.

 

[trenchfoot]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: tweaker2
the problem i have with anything coming from the politicians up on the hill in dealing with immigration reform is that practically all the legislation that's got a chance of passing is only meant to pander to the illegals themselves and the businesses that employ them.

the dems are groveling at the feet of the illegals and their relatives for votes. the repubs are doing the same for both higher profits through cheap illegal labor and to keep those potential votes from swinging away to the other side of the aisle.

what's missing from practically all of the proposed legislation is language concentrating on resolving the root causes of illegal immigration: porous borders and businesses who employ illegals getting a wink and a nod from congress and the bush administration that it's all good.

all the legislation that does not include resolving the root causes of this problem is merely an exercise in crabwalking around those causes and perpetuating them ad inifitum.

i wonder how many illegals will throw in the towel and go back home if the laws already on the books are enforced with the same zeal and fervor as those other related issues dealing with "homeland security".

i wonder how many businesses will fail as a direct cause of the illegals not being "exploitable" any more. or how many of them will accept losing those illegally gained excess profits and adjust accordingly.

i wonder how low the middle class will go before they fully realize the extent of their approaching demise and how keeping things the way they are is detrimental to their survival as a class.

i wonder how many legal immigrants will benefit both socially and economically if the laws were enforced and supplemented with more legislation meant to put bigger teeth into them.

You know that illegal immigration actually helps the middle class, right? Middle class Americans (by and large) do not work in the low skill jobs where immigrant pressure drives wages down. Not too many software engineers are having their jobs taken by someone who just hopped the fence. In fact the middle class actually gains from cheaper prices, etc.

If you, or someone you know relies on one of those immigrant saturated jobs then I can certainly see why you would be mad over the situation. If you are angry at the exploitation of immigrants, that's another good reason. Maybe taxes, or the further impoverishment of America's own native lower classes, sure. To say that the middle class is being destroyed by illegal immigrants is not accurate though, no matter what Lou Dobbs says.

your point is well taken and i agree with parts of your comments if viewed from a certain narrowed perspective. however, i based my opinion from the point of view that hiring illegal immigrants are a way for big business to get around the establishment of unions on their premises. the establishment of unions in the USA, imho, is what created the middle class as we know it.

ever since the repubs took over congress 15 years ago (?) and subsequently the white house, they have been very busy trying to dismantle the unions with increasing success. hiring illegals to work in low paying jobs have actually taken jobs away from those US citizens who would have worked at that same job that would have paid a much better wage if that job was unionized.

the establishment of unions would provide a vehicle for these citizens for entering the middle class just as it has been since unions were first created. without a common voice among them, these jobs will remain exactly what they are: a cheap illegal way to increase profits to the detriment of those seeking a path into the middle class.

there are many middle class cititzens that have earned enough income to send their children to colleges so that these children may have an upward path out of the middle class. these middle class citizens would not have been afforded this opportunity had the unions not bargained for wages that allowed for this to happen. i am myself a product of this process.

who takes the place of these ascending middle class citizens if those that are trying to gain entry into the middle class are being blocked by businesses that would rather care for the bottom line more than the welfare of those that make their businesses the success that they are? ergo, the delcine.

edit - syntax

 

[Socio]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

You know that illegal immigration actually helps the middle class, right? Middle class Americans (by and large) do not work in the low skill jobs where immigrant pressure drives wages down. Not too many software engineers are having their jobs taken by someone who just hopped the fence. In fact the middle class actually gains from cheaper prices, etc.

If you, or someone you know relies on one of those immigrant saturated jobs then I can certainly see why you would be mad over the situation. If you are angry at the exploitation of immigrants, that's another good reason. Maybe taxes, or the further impoverishment of America's own native lower classes, sure. To say that the middle class is being destroyed by illegal immigrants is not accurate though, no matter what Lou Dobbs says.

No it does not help the midle class it errodes it from the bottom and or forces it right out of the picture.

Lets take California for example;

California has the highest population of illegal immigrants in the nation, most of whom are not satisfied with just "doing the jobs Americans won't do" and are moving up the ladder doing the ones Americans will do slowly erroding the bottom of the Middle class driving the wages down and the taxes up.

2004;
Washington Times

"California's addiction to 'cheap' illegal-alien labor is bankrupting the state and posing enormous burdens on the state's shrinking middle-class tax base,"

Why is the middle class shrinking?

In California a recent growing trend has been white flight due to large-scale immigration of Hispanics with consequential rising taxes, subsequent lowering of wage scales and lowering of property values. This influx has even given rise to a whole new phenomenon called "black flight"

Pat Buchanan

In the 1990s, for the first time since the Spanish came, whites left California. Two million departed. From July 1, 2005, to July 1, 2006, 100,000 more packed up and headed back whence their fathers came. The "Anglo" population of the Golden State is down to 43 percent and falling fast.

It is no secret that Whites make up, well, made up the majority of the middle class workers in California, with them fleeing the state you start to get this;

State faces shortage of skilled workers

If and when this companies can not get the skilled workers they need they will either go out of business or leave the State as well. This mean means even more middle class skilled workers will follow the exiting companies for jobs.

This will eventually leave California with nothing but a bunch of fat pig business owners getting rich off of cheap low skilled labor.

And what does this final scenario remind you of?

That?s right ?Mexico!?

There you have a real picture of the complete decimation of the middle class in California brought on by illegal immigration.

 

[Billyzeke]

Originally posted by: Socio





If and when this companies can not get the skilled workers they need they will either go out of business or leave the State as well. This mean means even more middle class skilled workers will follow the exiting companies for jobs.

This will eventually leave California with nothing but a bunch of fat pig business owners getting rich off of cheap low skilled labor.

And what does this final scenario remind you of?

That?s right ?Mexico!?

There you have a real picture of the complete decimation of the middle class in California brought on by illegal immigration.

Sounds like the USA is becoming the NSM (Northern States of Mexico).
Something has to be done and soon. It seems to me that border must be secured first and foremost, then we can start to work on the illegals already here. A good place to start would be deporting all the illegals in the prison system. It's ridiculous for us to keep up these criminals.

Back on topic: immigration is a huge factor for me in the next election and the proposed bill is a huge steaming pile.
Just another bunch of laws to be ignored while putting a tremendous burden on the taxpayers and social programs, all the while encouraging even more illegal immigration.

Oh, and the new poll setup also needs an overhaul.

 

[Fern]

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: babylon5
Illegal Immigration Issue.

It's only illegal immigration because of how the current law reads, the issue is immigration, the proper law could make it perfectly legal. When the NRA is bitching about a gun ban, do they call it the "illegal gun ownership issue"?

That's a very odd view. As a (legal) immigrant in several different countries, I've yet to see any country that allows for unfettered access to (legal) immigration.

In fact, when traveling to Arab/Muslim countries, there was always a restricted border area staffed by armed uniformed guards and paperwork was neccessary etc.

And, mind you, this was all before 911 and things were much "looser".

You seem to have a unique "model" in mind for the USA, one where people can decide for themselves if they want to be legal immigrants by merely jumping a fence, or crossing a river. No permission needed?

Fern

 

[nageov3t]

not really a factor for me.

maybe I've got a weird perspective but I really just see immigration as a cali / south west US problem. personally, I love having access to great mexican food.

 

[Fern]

Originally posted by: techs
Is the immigration bill likely to be a "deal breaker" in your Presidential vote?
I wonder what the pollsters for the candidates are finding out........

Yes, the imigration issue has now become a deal breaker for me.

Charles Krauthammer had an interesting article this Sunday. He discussed the poll of May 25 which the media used to to try to show that Americans' supported this bill. It seems that whole story was upon question # 61 (IIRC), a poorly crafted question seemingly designed to elicit the "correct" answer. But overall, that very same poll actually seems to reveal broad opposition to the bill - about 70% of all voters. I think it's becoming clearly that most people fist want "border security" before they're willing to move on to ther areas of reform (contrary to what the Senators would have us believe).

The article also pointed out some "errors" about this bill made even by those Senators supportering/drafting the bill. McCain had been running around saying the illegals were required to pay back taxes when apparently we now know that is NOT even in the bill. I thoink there's alot of mis-information, mis-understanding & outright spin with regard to this bill.

I think both parties need to be careful here. Down here in the South, a good chunk of the Dems are blue collar working class people. I sense that they are strongly opposed. Otherwise, the Repubs seem to be splitting up over this issue, and I think we'll eventually see which side really has the public's support. If McCain sticks to his guns on this, I say he's out as the Repub nominee. His competition makes that a pretty thin limb to crawl out on, but I'll do it nevertheless.

Seems only the rich like this bill, whether they be Lib's (won't someone think of the poor Mexicans?), or Conservatives (want cheap labor).

Fern

 

[Fern]

Originally posted by: loki8481
not really a factor for me.

maybe I've got a weird perspective but I really just see immigration as a cali / south west US problem. personally, I love having access to great mexican food.

Yeah, that's a bit wierd

I'm in the Southeast, and the ilegal (mostly Mexican) are getting quite a high profile. Down here the Baptist "frown" on alchoholic beverages, yet the Mexicans seem to have a cultural affinity for drinking and driving (latino/Hispanic advocates words, not mine). It doesn't take too many local teens kiled by a (Mexican illegal) drunk driver to get their attention.

Some end up dating the local young women, unfortunately some (illegal Mexican) men think beating women is OK. More bad attention.

We're having a lot violent crime (stabbings. shooting etc) in local overcrowded trailer parks by guess who? This stuff is all in the news, every day.

We just had a huge peoperty tax increase, this is especially problematic for the long time locals (blue collar types) as they often have large tracts of inhereted land ("land rich, cash poor"). A lot of this increase stems from the need for construction of new schools. If you have a kid in school. it's hard not to notice the dramatic & substantial increase in Hispanic kids (a large number of whom can't speak English).

Same thing for our health care institutions. Long lines with piles of Hispanics, Hospitals are struggling with Medicaid costs for these people. Oh, and in our state, Medicare/Medicaid is pushed down to the county level (thus increasing local real estate taxes even more).

Before US gov entitlement programs became all the vogue, there couldn't be so much financial opposition to ilegal immigration. Nor so much a cause for it.

Fern