IMF warns on U.S. economy

[tydas]

http://money.cnn.com/2012/07/03/news/economy/imf-recovery/

I guess its keynesian vs.classical economy...where do you stand???

 

[Texashiker]

Printing more money and loaning the money to the banks will solve all of our problems

 

[Atreus21]

The IMF's argument appears essentially to boil down to this: When you're broke, get another credit card.

 

[fskimospy]

The IMF's argument appears essentially to boil down to this: When you're broke, get another credit card.

You know that it isn't, we've been over this a lot. More and more institutions worldwide are recognizing the failure of budget cutting in a recession. It's sad that it took this long for countries to realize that they were making a catastrophic mistake with austerity because it gave the world several years of unnecessary economic trouble, but at least now it seems that people are coming around.

 

[brencat]

Keynsian economics would work if we had politicians that weren't morally bankrupt and a citizenry that didn't expect free shit all the time.

But the fact is that we DON'T raise taxes during good times to pay for the government spending/stimulus we incur during bad times... "You can't raise taxes, you'll kill the economy and the stock market!!"

We never have, and we never will. The stimulus is temporary but the debt is forever.

So the only solution is to never incur the debt in the first place. That is reality Eskimospy.

 

[PokerGuy]

Fire up some more deficit spending, that will surely fix our problems. Spending more is always the right answer. Government spending is the equivalent of Maslow's hammer. If the only tool you have is a hammer, you treat everything as if it were a nail. If all you believe in is more government spending, then more government spending is the 'right' tool for every issue.

 

[fskimospy]

Keynsian economics would work if we had politicians that weren't morally bankrupt and a citizenry that didn't expect free shit all the time.

But the fact is that we DON'T raise taxes during good times to pay for the government spending/stimulus we incur during bad times... "You can't raise taxes, you'll kill the economy and the stock market!!"

We never have, and we never will. The stimulus is temporary but the debt is forever.

So the only solution is to never incur the debt in the first place. That is reality Eskimospy.

You realize that your 'reality' is directly contrary to easily available historical evidence, right? The important part of any debt is the debt/GDP ratio and the US reduced that from a far higher level after WW2 along with another significant reduction in the 90's. That is reality, brencat.

The shifting explanations betray the actual motivations here. The first argument was just that Keynesian economics were total bullshit, that they were just wrong. The last several years have provided some pretty powerful evidence that they are in fact correct. Now the argument becomes 'well even if they are right we still can't do it'. I believe this is an ideological and psychological opposition to policy that is not based on actual outcomes.

 

[PokerGuy]

I believe this is an ideological and psychological opposition to policy that is not based on actual outcomes.

Yeah, that 15 Trillion dollar deficit we're looking at is one of those "actual outcomes". $15 trillion in the hole is not enough for some, lets double down and go $30 trillion in the hole.

 

[fskimospy]

Yeah, that 15 Trillion dollar deficit we're looking at is one of those "actual outcomes". $15 trillion in the hole is not enough for some, lets double down and go $30 trillion in the hole.

Emotional ranting. You might be content to watch countries waste several more years pursuing failed conservative policies but thankfully policymakers appear less and less willing to do so. It's sad that it took this long, but the important part is that the world is finally moving towards a more sane fiscal posture.

 

[Texashiker]

Government spending is the equivalent of Maslow's hammer. If the only tool you have is a hammer, you treat everything as if it were a nail.

In that case, lowering interest rates and printing more money is the answer to everything.

 

[tydas]

You realize that your 'reality' is directly contrary to easily available historical evidence, right? The important part of any debt is the debt/GDP ratio and the US reduced that from a far higher level after WW2 along with another significant reduction in the 90's. That is reality, brencat.

The shifting explanations betray the actual motivations here. The first argument was just that Keynesian economics were total bullshit, that they were just wrong. The last several years have provided some pretty powerful evidence that they are in fact correct. Now the argument becomes 'well even if they are right we still can't do it'. I believe this is an ideological and psychological opposition to policy that is not based on actual outcomes.

Thats the GOP motto...ideological versus evidence...pretty clear based on all their positions...

 

[Incorruptible]

You know that it isn't, we've been over this a lot. More and more institutions worldwide are recognizing the failure of budget cutting in a recession. It's sad that it took this long for countries to realize that they were making a catastrophic mistake with austerity because it gave the world several years of unnecessary economic trouble, but at least now it seems that people are coming around.

Budget cutting is the only thing that works, increasing spending will only make the situation worse

 

[alzan]

Keynsian economics would work if we had politicians that weren't morally bankrupt and a citizenry that didn't expect free shit all the time.

But the fact is that we DON'T raise taxes during good times to pay for the government spending/stimulus we incur during bad times... "You can't raise taxes, you'll kill the economy and the stock market!!"

We never have, and we never will. The stimulus is temporary but the debt is forever.

So the only solution is to never incur the debt in the first place. That is reality Eskimospy.

Does "free shit" include unpaid for tax cuts?

 

[Matt1970]

You know that it isn't, we've been over this a lot. More and more institutions worldwide are recognizing the failure of budget cutting in a recession. It's sad that it took this long for countries to realize that they were making a catastrophic mistake with austerity because it gave the world several years of unnecessary economic trouble, but at least now it seems that people are coming around.

The States are cutting budgets left and right. The ramifications of continued fiscal irresponsibility is far greater than a slight bump in the road caused by austerity.

 

[werepossum]

Keynsian economics would work if we had politicians that weren't morally bankrupt and a citizenry that didn't expect free shit all the time.

But the fact is that we DON'T raise taxes during good times to pay for the government spending/stimulus we incur during bad times... "You can't raise taxes, you'll kill the economy and the stock market!!"

We never have, and we never will. The stimulus is temporary but the debt is forever.

So the only solution is to never incur the debt in the first place. That is reality Eskimospy.

I WISH the stimulus were temporary. We're spending the stimulus and TARP every year and Obama's supporters are calling it magnificent fiscal responsibility.

 

[PokerGuy]

Emotional ranting.

Yeah, that $15 trillion dollar deficit is just a figment of my imagination, our actual budget is doing fine.

Sorry, no amount of rationalization is going to get rid of the $15 trillion deficit that is growing larger every second -- that's a fact.

policymakers appear less and less willing to do so. It's sad that it took this long, but the important part is that the world is finally moving towards a more sane fiscal posture.

Yeah, more "sane", spend more when you've already massively overspent. That's your idea of sane, an idea shared by the idiots that brought us $15 trillion in debt. Of course politicians are going to take the path of least resistance, that's what got us in this mess to begin with.

 

[fskimospy]

The States are cutting budgets left and right. The ramifications of continued fiscal irresponsibility is far greater than a slight bump in the road caused by austerity.

First of all, the states cutting their budgets was a horrible idea. Second of all, attempting to compare state budgets within an economy and separate national budgets is silliness.

Austerity has not caused a 'slight bump in the road', it has been an economic catastrophe.

 

[fskimospy]

Yeah, that $15 trillion dollar deficit is just a figment of my imagination, our actual budget is doing fine.

Sorry, no amount of rationalization is going to get rid of the $15 trillion deficit that is growing larger every second -- that's a fact.

Yeah, more "sane", spend more when you've already massively overspent. That's your idea of sane, an idea shared by the idiots that brought us $15 trillion in debt. Of course politicians are going to take the path of least resistance, that's what got us in this mess to begin with.

I'm glad you have come around to the position of the significant majority of economists. If you can learn, anyone can. Bravo!

 

[irishScott]

I'm glad you have come around to the position of the significant majority of economists. If you can learn, anyone can. Bravo!

And what do those economists say about a few years down the line when the Godzilla deficit finally bites us in the ass?

 

[IGBT]

Printing more money and loaning the money to the banks will solve all of our problems

the withering effect of your obama med.tax will kick in 01/01/13. Small biz.will lay off to afford compliance..Medium/large biz.will lay off to cut pay roll expenses. No surprise.

 

[fskimospy]

And what do those economists say about a few years down the line when the Godzilla deficit finally bites us in the ass?

Why don't you go find out for yourself? Most economists support additional spending and stimulus in the short term along with entitlement reform to address long term deficits.

Interestingly, this is the fiscal plan endorsed by Obama.

 

[Anarchist420]

And what do those economists say about a few years down the line when the Godzilla deficit finally bites us in the ass?

The same excuses they try to make up when confronted with proof that austerity works. When Harding chose the path of austerity, there was quick recovery. When Hoover/FDR went on a spending and regulatory spree, the depression simply lasted 12 years. The govt has already been overspending since Coolidge left office and it hasn't made more people prosperous... Keynesian theory is a bunch of bullshit.

 

[Anarchist420]

Interestingly, this is the fiscal plan endorsed by Obama.

Obama has not endorsed entitlement reform. Show me where he has advocated means testing for MC and SS. Show me where he has suggested cutting Medicare Part D expenditures in half by abolishing patents and using imported drugs.

It's not possible because the President is nothing more than a corporatist piece of shit.

 

[fskimospy]

Obama has not endorsed entitlement reform. Show me where he advocated means testing for MC and SS. Show me where he has suggested cutting Medicare Part D expenditures in half by abolishing patents and using imported drugs.

I don't think you'll be able to, because the President is nothing more than a fucking corporatist piece of shit.

I don't think I'll be wasting any time showing you anything. You are an unemployed, parasitic piece of shit ranting at the internet from your parents' basement that somehow has the balls to tell us how the economy should be structured even though you've never done a day of real work in your life.

 

[irishScott]

Why don't you go find out for yourself? Most economists support additional spending and stimulus in the short term along with entitlement reform to address long term deficits.

Interestingly, this is the fiscal plan endorsed by Obama.

Since you seem to be such an expert on what the "significant majority of economists" are thinking I'd thought you'd just know off the top of your head.

So Obamacare is going to address our long term deficit? Because in terms of "entitlement reform" that's what we've got right now. Last I checked it's merely expanding our debt, like everything else.

Serious entitlement reform will not work for the same reasons austerity will not work. Both require that stuff be taken away from politically significant demographics who don't want it taken away. At least if we're talking deficit reduction.

The economy may fix itself, but our political structure is currently incapable of taking much action. Barring another bubble or magical political changes, austerity will come sooner or later, either forced or willingly. The later it comes, the worse it will be.