Im shocked the possible VAT tax has this much support

[IronWing]

You believe the 20-30% of the nation that supports the VAT are conservatives?

Why not? If the issue is to replace the current income tax system with a VAT system then I think conservatives would be screaming for it. It shifts the tax burden down the economic ladder and tremendously benefits the wealthy and high income earners.

 

[nick1985]

Why not? If the issue is to replace the current income tax system with a VAT system then I think conservatives would be screaming for it. It shifts the tax burden down the economic ladder and tremendously benefits the wealthy and high income earners.

The issue is not to replace anything, its to tack it on to what we already have. If you think the conservatives are the ones cheering this bullshit on, I'd pause for a minute and rethink some things.

 

[nonlnear]

Wouldn't a VAT tax exacerbate the problem of the 53% of the nation that actually contributes being overtaxed?

nick, instead of thinking about this in terms of how closely it would transform the country into your dream with the passage of just one piece of legislation, think about it instead in strategic terms. Specifically what will happen over the course of Obama's presidency. If this is a plan of Obama's (and that's a highly dubious if), it's probably not going to hit the floor until after the midterms. (Nobody likes to stump for a big new tax when they are campaigning.) It will turn into a big drawn out fight not because the GOP is opposed to it but because they can, and the timing would be perfect. After all, if they can milk the battle for most of 2011, that could be the last big thing Obama passes before the campaign gets into full swing. This will help fire up the GOP, possibly triggering a red shift in 2012 to fight the over-taxation (which might not have been in effect for more than a few months by then, if at all - and the more I think about it, the more I think the VAT would probably be written to kick in after 2012), and 2012 will bring in a strong mandate to Congress to cut taxes. And what will be cut? The income tax.

So not only would it be the catalyst to bring about a Fairtax-like scheme, it would also mire Obama's domestic agenda for the second half of his term, and probably guarantee his defeat in 2012. Everybody hates new taxes, and everybody loves voting out the incumbents who brought them in. The RNC will wait to inform the bulk of their base that they actually liked the VAT to begin with. Wouldn't want to waste precious campaign ammunition.

Then again, I'm not so sure that Obama wants a VAT anyways, so I'll have to stop dreaming...

edit: also never mind that a VAT would probably be rolled out with accompanying tax cuts. People dislike any new taxes, so even if it were revenue neutral when combined with other cuts (LOL!) it would still provide campaign ammunition for the masses.

 

[IronWing]

The issue is not to replace anything, its to tack it on to what we already have. If you think the conservatives are the ones cheering this bullshit on, I'd pause for a minute and rethink some things.

As an addon? No. The only folks who would support a VAT as an additional federal tax are folks who have no political ambitions or are just plain stupid*.







*Yes, you can trot out Pelosi, I don't like her policies and think many of them asinine.

 

[nick1985]

As an addon? No. The only folks who would support a VAT as an additional federal tax are folks who have no political ambitions or are just plain stupid*.







*Yes, you can trot out Pelosi, I don't like her policies and think many of them asinine.

If the VAT was a total replacement of the income tax, and there were caps on how high the VAT could be, then there could be conservative support for it. As long as its another way to gouge Americans, especially those that actually contribute taxes, we will be flaming pissed about it and voices will be heard at the polls.

 

[bfdd]

The FairTax bill was written to take effect ONLY after the income tax amendment had been repealed, because its framers know that politicians would inevitably keep both taxes. The income tax would again be unconstitutional (not that that means anything anymore.) December 31st of one year would be the last day of collecting income taxes; January first of the next year would be the first day collecting the FairTax and distributing prebates. (I think that's correct; it might also occur on the government's end of fiscal year.)

I suspect we'll get a VAT in addition to the income tax. It's a twofer from the progressive standpoint in that it's hidden from the consumer, which allows them to demonize business even more for the increased prices, and it will decrease non-government consumption which allows them to "save the Earth". Gubmit needs mo money, mo money, mo money . . .

I realize that, but they don't have to do the FairTax bill. They could be working up their own thing. 5 years to ramp up VAT while 5 years to scale down income tax until one replaces the other. Sounds like a reasonable plan, it isn't what's happening, but if they came out and said that was their plan and how they were going to do it etc, I'd be for it.

 

[werepossum]

I realize that, but they don't have to do the FairTax bill. They could be working up their own thing. 5 years to ramp up VAT while 5 years to scale down income tax until one replaces the other. Sounds like a reasonable plan, it isn't what's happening, but if they came out and said that was their plan and how they were going to do it etc, I'd be for it.

Oh, I know there's no chance of the Democrats EVER backing the FairTax or eliminating the income tax. I don't think there's even any chance of the Republicans backing the FairTax, unless maybe they get trounced in November, the FairTax gets majority support, and it's the only way they can see to regain power. No politician wants to lose his best and most powerful tool for controlling the populace, raising money, and rewarding his friends.

One thing about the VAT, it has probably as much compliance cost, and gives the government as much power, as the current income tax. It also falls more heavily on domestically produced goods than on imported goods - which of course is a good thing if you are convinced that America is fundamentally evil, consumes too much, and needs to be cut down to size. But its biggest draw is its invisibility to the consumer.

 

[ElFenix]

My apology, I wasn't fully aware of that.



I wasn't criticizing, sorry if that came across this way. However, regardless of what part of the current taxes you will eliminate to make room for VAT (as if), VAT is the most encompassing tax as far as individuals go. No one will escape it, as it's applied to mostly anything people buy (unless there are exemptions for basic items, which create other - mostly administrative - issues).
You could say that in general, that is a sure way to shift burden from the richer to the poorer. You might decrease the overall burden, but the relative percentage of the money coming from the low class will rise.
Not that this is necessarily a bad thing, it's very situation dependent.

no one buying stuff really escapes federal income tax either. the prices of goods and services are higher due to the income tax, it's just not on the receipt.

One thing about the VAT, it has probably as much compliance cost, and gives the government as much power, as the current income tax. It also falls more heavily on domestically produced goods than on imported goods - which of course is a good thing if you are convinced that America is fundamentally evil, consumes too much, and needs to be cut down to size. But its biggest draw is its invisibility to the consumer.

just wait until the carbon tax is applied to imports! no VAT on exports, no income tax on US businesses, and carbon tax + VAT on imports. lucky day, lucky day

 

[Argo]

VAT is a horribly regressive tax. Sure, it's an efficient way of collecting money, but most definitely Obama will murder much of his political career by enacting such a bill. When people see the 10% <- that's low extra they have to pay, they are going to be pissed. Especially middle class/poor.

Unless the VAT comes along with "VAT deduction if you're making less than $75,000 a year, or married and making $150,000 a year"

 

[HGC]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, a VAT tax is the best idea to come out of this administration. It should start at 20&#37; and apply to everything.

All tax increases beyond levels much lower than we have now are bad. Why? Because they will not be used to balance the budget. They will be used, as they always have been, as an excuse to increase spending.

VAT is the worst because it is the most hidden.

Tax revenues increase with economic growth. Growth increases with lower tax rates.

 

[Acanthus]

VAT is a horribly regressive tax. Sure, it's an efficient way of collecting money, but most definitely Obama will murder much of his political career by enacting such a bill. When people see the 10% <- that's low extra they have to pay, they are going to be pissed. Especially middle class/poor.

This, a VAT tax hits everyone.

It disproportionally hits the poor.

Very very bad move politically (and for the economy i might add).

 

[NoStateofMind]

Just like obamacare, VAT will be added. It doesn't matter what you or I think anymore, its all about what they (government) wants. As proven through the last two major decisions made by congress in which they essentially ignored the American majority (bailouts/healthcare). This trend will continue. Get used to it.

 

[dmcowen674]

Just like obamacare, VAT will be added. It doesn't matter what you or I think anymore, its all about what they (government) wants. As proven through the last two major decisions made by congress in which they essentially ignored the American majority (bailouts/healthcare). This trend will continue. Get used to it.

Yep

Your hereos give us false wars for oil, our heroes give us a livable country.

Of course many on your side would beg to differ. Hoping it is enough to make them want to leave pronto to a more suitable country to their liking. :thumbsup: