Im back.... *smirk*

[2timer]

Hey guys.

I posted last week about natural supplements for cyclists. The feedback was very positive and I appreciate it sincerely.

I took the advice and rested more between biking. I also ate blueberries but man, are those suckers expensive here in Colorado. It definitely helped but it wasn't enough. I still feel tired and sore after biking, and it's really frustrating because I'm basically riding the same amount of miles every week. It feels like I've plateaued and I just can't get any stronger.

So I've been doing reading on muscle recovery: fluids and electrolytes lost in sweat/glycogen/carbs/protein, those seem to be the 4 nutritional elements of muscle recovery.

I realized I have not done ANY electrolyte replenishing whatsoever. Questions:

Do you think this is holding me back?
For anyone who knows, is electrolyte consumption done during, pre, or post workout? Does one load up on electrolytes?

Last one but important. Again, with the nature awareness being important to me, I'm not looking to Gatorade for solutions. So, anyone know of really good natural sources for potassium sodium and magnesium? I Googled and found seaweed lol, but I don't know how well that will work!

 

[Raghu]

Bananas and water.

 

[2timer]

Bananas and water.

Bananas, duh! I don't know why that didn't just jump out at me. I must be smoking something. Sigh. Thanks sir.

So I Googled and found some interesting stuff. It seems sea pure, unrefined sea salt contains all 95 trace minerals the body needs, as well as providing sodium which is the #1 cellular electrolyte. So that will definitely be going into the electrolyte drink. Along with... bananas? Lol.

Also, it seems that coconut water is also very high in magnesium (25mg/3.5oz serving) http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coconut_water. Hm, maybe coconut water with a dash of sea salt and a banana before a ride is in order.

 

[SociallyChallenged]

Electrolyte supplementation is really only necessary if you're going to be riding for longer than 60min. If you aren't, you get enough electrolytes within your diet typically. This is not holding you back from advancing. No, you don't need to load up. I think you're putting a lot of pressure on yourself to get better faster. Improvement is a long-term thing. You may also want to find something to push you harder - perhaps a cycling group is available in your region.

 

[mechBgon]

Milk is another good source of potassium. Chocolate milk is a popular recovery drink for cyclists, having carbs, protein and minerals.

 

[2timer]

Electrolyte supplementation is really only necessary if you're going to be riding for longer than 60min. If you aren't, you get enough electrolytes within your diet typically. This is not holding you back from advancing. No, you don't need to load up. I think you're putting a lot of pressure on yourself to get better faster. Improvement is a long-term thing. You may also want to find something to push you harder - perhaps a cycling group is available in your region.

I'm really making some unreasonable expectations on myself, aren't I? I don't know why, I guess I felt cycling should be easier to get stronger at than I realized. So I don't really need to be too worried about the electrolytes if I'm riding for less than 60 minute stretches right?

 

[_Rick_]

Essentially, if you ride for a long time, take three bottles.
Two water, one isotonic drink.
The isotonic drink is to keep your blood sugar under control, the first water bottle is for the thirst, and the second water bottle goes with whatever you're going to be snacking along the way (I'm following the advice of a triathlete-buddy, who uses PowerBar Gel to deal with those mid-ride hunger pangs).
As for exhaustion:
Look into actual training programs. Don't ride too hard too often. Alternate with a lot of core training to get your arms and back into shape. And learn to suffer.
Biking is a sport that is pretty much defined by suffering, as most endurance sports. Just last sunday, I rode a mile-climb - and then had to ride home on burning legs that just wouldn't subside until 30 minutes after I got off the bike. A bit sore is perfectly normal.


I'm currently doing 2x6 miles 'prologue' style rides to and from work per day, plus one rest day (when I replenish me drinks/snacks/clothes at work), one hard, long ride on the week-end if the weather is nice, and one rest-day on the week end as well.
Even after half a year of this, during the week I am slightly sore pretty much every day.
But - I am at least imagining that I have been able to push a little harder recently.

Unless you're cycling competitively, I wouldn't bother too much, and focus instead of having a nice ride to a nice location, while sustaining a speed that will get you home. Go for one or two intense rides (mountains or 50m+) per week, no more. Do plenty of core training on rest days, to make sure your back, shoulders and arms are strong enough to ride comfortably, and also for the general benefits provided.

Make sure to manage your carbs (big carb meal around 2-3 hours before leaving for a long ride) and otherwise go for a varied diet. While you're sore, maintain an increased protein intake (as was suggested in the revious iirc).


Edit: Anything under 60 minutes is just a short time trial. Make sure to have a drink on you, and don't start out starved or immediately after eating. Nothing else to consider. An hour might be too short to get the body into fat-burning suffering mode though.
Stick the body into exertion level one, and keep it there for around 3 hours once a week at least.

 

[2timer]

Essentially, if you ride for a long time, take three bottles.
Two water, one isotonic drink.
The isotonic drink is to keep your blood sugar under control, the first water bottle is for the thirst, and the second water bottle goes with whatever you're going to be snacking along the way (I'm following the advice of a triathlete-buddy, who uses PowerBar Gel to deal with those mid-ride hunger pangs).
As for exhaustion:
Look into actual training programs. Don't ride too hard too often. Alternate with a lot of core training to get your arms and back into shape. And learn to suffer.
Biking is a sport that is pretty much defined by suffering, as most endurance sports. Just last sunday, I rode a mile-climb - and then had to ride home on burning legs that just wouldn't subside until 30 minutes after I got off the bike. A bit sore is perfectly normal.


I'm currently doing 2x6 miles 'prologue' style rides to and from work per day, plus one rest day (when I replenish me drinks/snacks/clothes at work), one hard, long ride on the week-end if the weather is nice, and one rest-day on the week end as well.
Even after half a year of this, during the week I am slightly sore pretty much every day.
But - I am at least imagining that I have been able to push a little harder recently.

Unless you're cycling competitively, I wouldn't bother too much, and focus instead of having a nice ride to a nice location, while sustaining a speed that will get you home. Go for one or two intense rides (mountains or 50m+) per week, no more. Do plenty of core training on rest days, to make sure your back, shoulders and arms are strong enough to ride comfortably, and also for the general benefits provided.

Make sure to manage your carbs (big carb meal around 2-3 hours before leaving for a long ride) and otherwise go for a varied diet. While you're sore, maintain an increased protein intake (as was suggested in the revious iirc).


Edit: Anything under 60 minutes is just a short time trial. Make sure to have a drink on you, and don't start out starved or immediately after eating. Nothing else to consider. An hour might be too short to get the body into fat-burning suffering mode though.
Stick the body into exertion level one, and keep it there for around 3 hours once a week at least.

Wow, that's great thanks! What kind of core exercises do you recommend? I realize maybe I'm narrowing my focus too much on just cycling and not cross training.

One problem is that I used to run cross country. I had to stop because of a knee injury. Cross country is really about cardiovascular and lung capacity, so you get tired but not sore (my experience). I remember I could double and triple my distances within, say, a month of training (starting with 1-2 mile runs, then quickly moving up from 3-4 miles to 5-6 miles).

It seems like biking just doesn't work the same way jogging does. Yes it's cardiovascular, but it's also a lot on the quadriceps and hamstring muscles.
Maybe that's why I'm not getting the same fast results, because I don't have the muscles. I get burning too and it can linger for a day or two.

I also think maybe I'm not doing ENOUGH carb loading. I was tired after riding my bike so I ate two slices of wheat bread with peanut butter and a bowl of brown rice with half a potato. It helped but I was still tired. So about two hours later I just spooned two big tablespoons of honey (48g of carbs) straight from the jar. Felt better almost immediately after that! Haha.

Maybe I need to use more carb intense foods since I eat so many whole grains. The whole grains have carbs but low on tge GI scale, maybe that's it. I don't want to give up whole grains but perhaps I need more intensive carbs. Like honey.

 

[2timer]

Milk is another good source of potassium. Chocolate milk is a popular recovery drink for cyclists, having carbs, protein and minerals.

Great tip, thanks!

 

[_Rick_]

Wow, that's great thanks! What kind of core exercises do you recommend? I realize maybe I'm narrowing my focus too much on just cycling and not cross training.

Classical stabilization stuff. All-direction body stabilization exercises are probably the most basic and most important exercises. Grab a set of exercises you find on the web, and alternate between two different exercises for two to three rounds of either repetitions or holding. Holding exercises should be held for 30-60 seconds. Train to exhaustion/failure. You won't need most of these muscles for cycling, so you can pretty much go all in. You will probably feel sore in quite a few spots for the first few days, but this brings us right to our next issue:

One problem is that I used to run cross country. I had to stop because of a knee injury. Cross country is really about cardiovascular and lung capacity, so you get tired but not sore (my experience). I remember I could double and triple my distances within, say, a month of training (starting with 1-2 mile runs, then quickly moving up from 3-4 miles to 5-6 miles).

It seems like biking just doesn't work the same way jogging does. Yes it's cardiovascular, but it's also a lot on the quadriceps and hamstring muscles.
Maybe that's why I'm not getting the same fast results, because I don't have the muscles. I get burning too and it can linger for a day or two.

If you start off in a better shape, but with less muscle tone on the relevant muscles, of course you'll suffer through the muscles first. Muscle gains are harder to come to than the first improvements of cardio gain as well, especially for muscles that already are reasonably developed.

I also think maybe I'm not doing ENOUGH carb loading. I was tired after riding my bike so I ate two slices of wheat bread with peanut butter and a bowl of brown rice with half a potato. It helped but I was still tired. So about two hours later I just spooned two big tablespoons of honey (48g of carbs) straight from the jar. Felt better almost immediately after that! Haha.

Maybe I need to use more carb intense foods since I eat so many whole grains. The whole grains have carbs but low on tge GI scale, maybe that's it. I don't want to give up whole grains but perhaps I need more intensive carbs. Like honey.

I drink a lot of (diluted by alternating with water) juice (3/4 of a liter) over the day. The fruit sugar revitalizes nicely by helping my body to maintain a high but constant blood sugar, plus I'm on a good dose of vitamin C.
While this does not prepare for long rides, it may help with recovery.
Again, for 60 minute rides, if you ate less than 4 hours and no more than 2 hours before, you shouldn't have to worry about intake. It's on longer rides, beyond 2 hours, that you will have more trouble.

If you want to focus on cardiovascular improvement/weight loss, go slower for longer. You could also try intervals. This is best done by drafting with one or two partners, or by going for a rolling hills type outing.
I think the main problem with your plan is that you have a rather monotonous approach of going on maximum exertion time trials style rides, too regularly. I did that for a while too, but then slowly became more comfortable not going all-out all the time, and instead exploring the mid range distances, from 50-100 km's. Even when going slow, a few climbs will still put you under pressure.

Again, something I said previously: stick to a lower exertion level, around 60-70% of maximum heart frequency is what you should be able to maintain for a long time. If your legs aren't up to that, then it's mostly a matter of time. And time it will take.

Also, if you can get massages for the legs, you should try those. Ought to help with recovery. But I guess you need the required equipment - can always use it as a pick up line though

 

[tedrodai]

I'm really making some unreasonable expectations on myself, aren't I? I don't know why, I guess I felt cycling should be easier to get stronger at than I realized. So I don't really need to be too worried about the electrolytes if I'm riding for less than 60 minute stretches right?

Don't consider that a hard rule necessarily...listen to your body as they always say, which becomes easier with experience. If you're sweating a lot more than usual because of humidity or the like, you may feel better supplementing electrolytes even if it isn't a longer ride.

Even for core exercises, I'd recommend not training to exhaustion/failure every time. Your body can do it, but exhausting yourself and making everything tight & sore will always increase your risk of injury. It's walking a fine line. You may be able to handle it for good long stretches, but you'll end up with more injuries in the long run. And you don't really gain much if anything from that extra work, because your body needs extra time to recover in return.

Just my suggestion, anywho. I'm speaking from my personal training and injury experience. When I was learning how to exercise back in high school (for track/football...geez can't believe it's been 11 years since I graduated), I was basically taught that you trained to exhaustion to make gains. And I did make gains. However, in the years since, that mentality has cost me a LOT more injuries than simple accidents have, usually pulled muscles but some other stuff as well (thankfully nothing major). When I started listening a few years ago to folks who recommend otherwise, I realized my gains are coming just as nicely, but I'm getting injured far less. When I do get injured these days, it's because it's still a struggle for me to shake my ingrained habbits of pushing myself too far. I'm slowly getting better, but I do wish I had learned earlier.

 

[tedrodai]

Some examples of isometric holds for your core would be the plank, reverse plank, hollow hold, arch or superman hold; there's several variations of each you can do or work up to.

 

[_Rick_]

Oh, and one more thing: stretching during/after endurance exercise may also help.
Stretching before is probably not really helpful, especially if you start off at reasonable warm up speeds, but after the warm up interval it might be a good idea, and certainly when you feel the muscles starting to get crampy. A quick stretch often gives some short term reprieve, allowing you to carry on with a lower load. Riding int the cramp can also be done, but on the bike there is a certain danger involved if you lose focus. Which a cramp will usually cause

Stretching after the exercise allows the abused muscles to get:
into a relaxed state, less risk of muscles becoming shorter due to the repetitive nature of the exercise
better tone, due to additional stress on the muscle structure provoking more rebuilding.

I would say from experience, that you may be slightly less sore the next day, if you did a proper cool-down lap and some stretching after the main exercise.

 

[KMc]

Milk is another good source of potassium. Chocolate milk is a popular recovery drink for cyclists, having carbs, protein and minerals.

Chocolate milk is the best recovery drink I've ever used. It's got just the right ratio of protein to carbs for good absorption and it tastes far better than any sports recovery drink. You can buy the Horizon organic variety in single serve cartons.

 

[2timer]

Thanks so much for all the tips! I'll be trying those foods plus doing some stabilizing exercises plus looking into not riding into exhaustion all the time, but instead mixing it up a little bit.

Thanks a lot!

 

[_Rick_]

There's also alcohol free wheat beer as a great isotonic recovery drink.
Personally I often go for Orangina, that also goes down well, tastes good, and gives enough, but not too much sugar. A bit low on longer carbohydrates though.

 

[mechBgon]

There's also a saying accredited to Greg Lemond:

It never gets easier; you just go faster.

There's an element of truth to that. In the first few months of this year, I was grinding up hills on my studded-tire mountain bike. As the months went by, I was working just as hard, but was powering progressively tougher gears and going that much faster. Don't expect serious training to eventually become painless.

 

[Demo24]

One thing I'm wondering about here is what sort of cadence you are riding at. If your trying to push big gears at around 50-60 rpm all the time, then you're going to be quite tired and sore at the end of that route. Try pedaling lower gears but at a faster rate, say 80-90 rpm. Coming from a running background this may be easier for you since pedaling at the higher rates like that tends to be more cardio intensive, and not as dependent on your legs.

 

[Schmide]

My reality in cycling is, if you stay at short rides, you're going to be good at short rides.

It doesn't matter what you eat as long as you get enough hydration and calories.

To really improve, do a few short rides 1-2hrs 3 times a week for a couple weeks, then pick a weekend day and do 5+hrs. The shock to your system will make the small rides feel like nothing.

Don't forget recovery rides. If you do a big ride, do at least a 30min ride slow ride the next day.

 

[SociallyChallenged]

My reality in cycling is, if you stay at short rides, you're going to be good at short rides.

It doesn't matter what you eat as long as you get enough hydration and calories.

To really improve, do a few short rides 1-2hrs 3 times a week for a couple weeks, then pick a weekend day and do 5+hrs. The shock to your system will make the small rides feel like nothing.

Don't forget recovery rides. If you do a big ride, do at least a 30min ride slow ride the next day.

That's not necessarily true though. Research shows with running, cycling, etc that if you do intense interval training, your ability on longer trips will improve quite a bit.

 

[Ghiedo27]

Research shows with running, cycling, etc that if you do intense interval training, your ability on longer trips will improve quite a bit.

That's a fact. But I think it's important to place it in the context that those gains are highly dependent on an already developed aerobic system.

The primary benefit of that sort of training is an increase in lactate threshold. The rider will be able to work at a higher HR than before without building lactic acid. However, the difference in power wont be very great for someone new to the sport. The underlying ability to generate and store energy from from food and deliver fresh blood to muscles will still be underdeveloped.

In an ideal world you would train at an HR low enough and your cadence high enough so you can sustain that effort for hours. Your limit on the bike would only be limited by your schedule and how effectively you recovered. You would maintain that for about 3-4 months and then start to work on other aspects of fitness.

Of coarse the best plan and science in the world isn't worth anything if riding that way bores you out of your mind and you quit. I just want to make the point that there's plenty of benefit to be had from what a lot of people call easy riding.

 

[SociallyChallenged]

That's a fact. But I think it's important to place it in the context that those gains are highly dependent on an already developed aerobic system.

The primary benefit of that sort of training is an increase in lactate threshold. The rider will be able to work at a higher HR than before without building lactic acid. However, the difference in power wont be very great for someone new to the sport. The underlying ability to generate and store energy from from food and deliver fresh blood to muscles will still be underdeveloped.

In an ideal world you would train at an HR low enough and your cadence high enough so you can sustain that effort for hours. Your limit on the bike would only be limited by your schedule and how effectively you recovered. You would maintain that for about 3-4 months and then start to work on other aspects of fitness.

Of coarse the best plan and science in the world isn't worth anything if riding that way bores you out of your mind and you quit. I just want to make the point that there's plenty of benefit to be had from what a lot of people call easy riding.

That's not true whatsoever. You can get a completely new, previously sedentary individual (as shown by most research on exercise benefits) to improve their aerobic capacity via dominantly anaerobic processes.

The lactate threshold is frequently confused as meaning something it doesn't. It's not exactly a threshold, as the term was used by early researchers. Essentially, it is a sign that you are unable to utilize aerobic processes and must turn to anaerobic processes (including anaerobic glycolysis). This results in more lactate produced. However, research has shown consistently that the muscle burn you feel that makes you fail is not induced by lactate. It's induced by increased extracellular potassium levels and central nervous system regulation.

If you consistently complete an interval training program, you will get the same benefits of long, aerobic rides. That means you will increase your blood volume, heart's cardiac output, blood delivery, localized tissue oxidative ability, etc.

The low intensity, high duration argument doesn't stand up in research. It's actually less effective for improving fitness in a specified amount of time. Granted, it does reduce your likelihood of injury as it lets your musculoskeletal system adapt more fully, but it doesn't make you better prepared to cycle.

There is a benefit to easy cycling, I agree. I'm just stating that this shouldn't be the majority of his training. It should be used more for recovery as opposed to training.

 

[Ghiedo27]

Would you mind sharing some links? I don't dispute that high intensity exercise improves aerobic fitness, but I have yet to see it recommended as a staple for the bulk of time spent exercising. I should specify that I mean for sport. I have read that even weight lifting provides enough cardio benefits to help protect you against heart disease, etc.

Primarily I'm concerned with how frequently you can perform high intensity interval work over prolonged periods (say, over the coarse of a season). No doubt, 30 - 45 minutes (at specified intensity) of quality, high intensity intervals in a week would give greater returns than that time spent spinning at 70%HR. How does it stack up against a full aerobic load, though? How do athletes hold up after several weeks of this?

If time spent on intervals is 2x as effective as flat aerobic efforts (counting warm up, etc) but you can handle a much greater aerobic load (with a reduce risk of injury) you can quickly make greater gains in less calendar time. That's how I've understood the trade off. Where am I going wrong here?

Thanks in advance for your comments.