Rant I'm an old man and I hate software updates

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mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
17,948
10,081
136
Completely different. I've been in real auto accidents (though never my fault), and while I can restore an OS partition image in under 5 minutes, not so much can I rewind time on an auto accident.

Even so, I use a seatbelt, because that's pertaining to a real consequence , based on inevitable physics, opposed to made up geek faux-expert BS which only applies if you have a pineapple on your head and flirt with the wrong girl on ladies free night at the local redneck bar. Then like magic, a partition image can put all that right again. I am ignoring bios exploits because let's be serious, it's so obscure that it would be stupid to fixate on it.

If you don't feel secure, and depend on an OS to save you then you still aren't secure. It can only mean that you don't know what you're doing, or don't trust yourself. I mean, if you like to get drunk and click any random thing that pops up from some porn or warez site, then yeah, it might be a special case where a matter of falling through space and someone needs to catch you.

Even then, my challenge is still open. Point me to some warez or porn site (though I'd rather something more main-stream) where one of my win7 boxes is doomed. Please make it worth the bother, some good porn or warez. I can at least get some trade value out of something good. :) Even then, if there is a mainstream non-porn/non-warez site compromised, I'd rather test that, see that site issue put down because those delving into the porn or warez, have to expect more shenanigans. Just sayin', don't put yourself in harms' way unless you are prepared for that.

If you "trust yourself" and "Win7 won't get owned", how on earth do you know that you can re-image your OS partition in under 5 minutes? I mean, there are theoretical answers to this question that don't inherently demolish your own argument, but it really isn't a good argument to be making. It's like when Donald Trump says, "I didn't do it!" and "it's not illegal" in the same breath. PICK ONE.

If I was running Win7 in this era and a security compromise occurred, I'd take that as a cue to up my game security-wise (e.g. "maybe I shouldn't be running an out-of-support OS") rather than pull out a disk image to restore from. However, since it's a reasonable assumption IMO that I wouldn't fall for anything stupid, I wouldn't know for a fact when the compromise occurred or what the trigger was. It's a big reason why I don't do OS imaging for my own stuff: how do you know how far back you need to go to ensure a clean OS installation. The further you go back, the more "getting back to scratch" work you need to do.
 

A///

Diamond Member
Feb 24, 2017
4,352
3,154
136
Even then, my challenge is still open. Point me to some warez or porn site (though I'd rather something more main-stream) where one of my win7 boxes is doomed. Please make it worth the bother, some good porn or warez. I can at least get some trade value out of something good. :) Even then, if there is a mainstream non-porn/non-warez site compromised, I'd rather test that, see that site issue put down because those delving into the porn or warez, have to expect more shenanigans. Just sayin', don't put yourself in harms' way unless you are prepared for that.
I don't think browseby attacks or xss vulns are a thing anymore with how locked down browsers are. Using an adblocker helps you out even more. While I don't think you should use an old os like windows 7 that is left vulnerable I can't force you to switch to windows 10 or 11, even though I wish I could.

Altho I had to laugh at the guys link. You can swap the 7 out for a 10 or 11 in the address field. W10 had 43 vulns this year, 524 last year, 486 in 21, over 800 in 2020.

M$'s super duper trooper secure and buggy as poop windows 11 had 88 vulns in 21 the year it launched in fall! 501 vulns last year and 13 this year so far. loooking up the mac os or osx figured they ain't better than windows.
 
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mindless1

Diamond Member
Aug 11, 2001
8,153
1,478
126
If you "trust yourself" and "Win7 won't get owned", how on earth do you know that you can re-image your OS partition in under 5 minutes? I mean, there are theoretical answers to this question that don't inherently demolish your own argument, but it really isn't a good argument to be making. It's like when Donald Trump says, "I didn't do it!" and "it's not illegal" in the same breath. PICK ONE.

If I was running Win7 in this era and a security compromise occurred, I'd take that as a cue to up my game security-wise (e.g. "maybe I shouldn't be running an out-of-support OS") rather than pull out a disk image to restore from. However, since it's a reasonable assumption IMO that I wouldn't fall for anything stupid, I wouldn't know for a fact when the compromise occurred or what the trigger was. It's a big reason why I don't do OS imaging for my own stuff: how do you know how far back you need to go to ensure a clean OS installation. The further you go back, the more "getting back to scratch" work you need to do.
I know I can re-image in 5 minutes because after choosing to make the partition backups, what good are they if you don't TEST the process? Lots of things can happen besides malware, like bad driver, accidentally deleting something, letting browser update and that causes problems, drive failure, and more. I do run modern browsers. I can browse and pull individual files, or folders out of a partition backup too.

There aren't security compromises occurring, but if you are stating that you wouldn't notice for a long time, how do you know you aren't compromised right now? I maintain several months of backups and that seems adequate. I only make them once a month on Win7 systems, while user generated files get backed up more often on a folder by folder basis. It is automated, all I had to do is set that up years ago, then not run out of storage space which is easy with modern several-TB HDDs. Every now and then I delete the oldest backups. Win10 partitions ought to be backed up more often than that if you're letting it update itself, and then you should know when windows created a problem that you need to undo.

What is "getting back to scratch"? Some minor tweaks or apps you recently installed? Letting browser update itself? If anything, updating an older OS to a newer one, is a lot more work, getting full featured drivers/companion-apps, finding some hardware simply isn't supported, some apps aren't either. Maybe compatibility mode works, or maybe it doesn't.

My methods work fine for me.
 
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nakedfrog

No Lifer
Apr 3, 2001
58,417
12,686
136
I don't think browseby attacks or xss vulns are a thing anymore with how locked down browsers are. Using an adblocker helps you out even more. While I don't think you should use an old os like windows 7 that is left vulnerable I can't force you to switch to windows 10 or 11, even though I wish I could.

Altho I had to laugh at the guys link. You can swap the 7 out for a 10 or 11 in the address field. W10 had 43 vulns this year, 524 last year, 486 in 21, over 800 in 2020.

M$'s super duper trooper secure and buggy as poop windows 11 had 88 vulns in 21 the year it launched in fall! 501 vulns last year and 13 this year so far. loooking up the mac os or osx figured they ain't better than windows.
*Not guy
The difference is that Win10 & Win11 vulnerabilities get patched.
I don't care whether he gets compromised, I just think he's foolish for believing he's invulnerable and that he'd know immediately if he were compromised.
 
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mindless1

Diamond Member
Aug 11, 2001
8,153
1,478
126
^ I'm okay with you thinking that is stupid. ;) 500 people a year get killed by hippopotamuses. Death by hippo is a real vulnerability, yet it is unlikely enough that I'm not preparing anti-Hippo escape measures, besides a modern browser so I can find out everything I need to know about them if one happened to magically appear on my lawn.

It's not impossible. There could be one out there right now that I haven't noticed yet. How do I know that a hippo escape backup plan was set in place before the hippos came? I better keep updating my hippo escape plan because you never know...

... except maybe the new hippo escape plan isn't really any better than the old one, for my particular risk level and situation.
 

mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
17,948
10,081
136
There aren't security compromises occurring, but if you are stating that you wouldn't notice for a long time, how do you know you aren't compromised right now?

I'm a tad concerned that you're asking this question. The fact of the matter is that none of us knows for certain. All any of us can do is work with what we know. But the fact that you asked this question makes me wonder whether you realise how this potentially compromises your imaging situation for the reason I already stated.
 

nakedfrog

No Lifer
Apr 3, 2001
58,417
12,686
136
In the time between a system being compromised and re-imaged, you probably won't know how much of your data has been harvested. Some fear change enough to take that risk, some don't.
 

mindless1

Diamond Member
Aug 11, 2001
8,153
1,478
126
I'm a tad concerned that you're asking this question. The fact of the matter is that none of us knows for certain. All any of us can do is work with what we know. But the fact that you asked this question makes me wonder whether you realise how this potentially compromises your imaging situation for the reason I already stated.
Except the ability to recover from malware is merely one of the potential scenarios, a less likely one than other reasons.

If the idea that a partition system backup wouldn't save you from malware, causes you to not make them, then I feel you are both mistaken, and also far more vulnerable than I am due to every other reason to have them. OS or app updates, and hardware failure, are far more common vulnerabilities to the average home environment if the user isn't engaging in risky behaviors.

Yes there's some small % chance it compromises some more recent backup. I can just roll back to an older one, but once you consider my vulnerability is low to begin with, how much less likely is it then for malware to sit dormant for months until it's noticed? Keep in mind that I do have block until allowed, firewall rules.

You are in the same situation except you don't even have that extra option. Seems a little backwards to try to argue away making backups, but suit yourself, not my data...

Unsubscribed, waste of time to argue with people taken up by paranoia to the point where they make self-compromising decisions as a result.
 

manly

Lifer
Jan 25, 2000
11,291
2,326
136
Not sure how running unpatched software on an unsupported OS somehow equates to "best security practices" IRL. (lol)

[snipped]

But hey... you do you! ;)
Well the guy's username does check out. My dad used to get his Windoze 7 system borked regularly, say once every couple years. So he'd pay a guy $50 to reload the OS. I don't think he was doing the dumbest shit on a PC, but old people are just very susceptible to clicking where they shouldn't. I've tried to explain cyber hygiene to him before, but it's a lot like talking to a brick wall.

The idea of "useless feature updates good, fixing security bugs unnecessary" is so hilariously bad I won't comment further. Couple things I'd add is that for most people, Windows 10 is reliable/secure and that's partly because of forced updates.

Finally, the situation on mobile is still a mess. Phone hardware is lasting longer than ever (aside from batteries), but outside of some "flagships," Android support is still shitty. This problem would be worse if not for the popularity of iPhone (and its unrivaled support duration). Also, the aforementioned, unremovable batteries losing running time eventually compels people to swap their phones. In the meantime, we're generating a lot of excess e-waste.
 

Kaido

Elite Member & Kitchen Overlord
Feb 14, 2004
48,516
5,333
136
*Not guy
The difference is that Win10 & Win11 vulnerabilities get patched.
I don't care whether he gets compromised, I just think he's foolish for believing he's invulnerable and that he'd know immediately if he were compromised.

I had a customer who didn't "believe" in antivirus. That was one of the main reasons I quit doing business with them; I didn't want to be held liable for the inevitable results. Maybe 6 months after we parted ways, their entire network got eaten by a worm. Even their digital fax machine system went down. They fought it for 3 days until they called me in...3 full days of business downtime.

I now steer clear of any business customers who refuse to employ standard security practices & standard disaster recovery procedures, including air-gapped & regularly-tested backups.
 

Captante

Lifer
Oct 20, 2003
30,296
10,797
136
What a waste of time & energy lolol. :p

If some pea-brain wants to waste time arguing that using an unsupported OS as a "daily-driver" online somehow makes them "superior" I say let them have at it! (brings to mind the clowns who claim wearing seatbelts is "dangerous"!!)

Schadenfreude is REAL and extreme stupidity can be entertaining. ;)


I had a customer who didn't "believe" in antivirus. That was one of the main reasons I quit doing business with them; I didn't want to be held liable for the inevitable results. Maybe 6 months after we parted ways, their entire network got eaten by a worm. Even their digital fax machine system went down. They fought it for 3 days until they called me in...3 full days of business downtime.

I now steer clear of any business customers who refuse to employ standard security practices & standard disaster recovery procedures, including air-gapped & regularly-tested backups.

No worries.... they can "just restore a backup image in 5 minutes" if/when things go a little bit sideways ROTFL.

:tearsofjoy:


It's important to keep in mind that modern data-breaches FREQUENTLY come along with dire consequences that go FAR beyond any actual data-loss.
 
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A///

Diamond Member
Feb 24, 2017
4,352
3,154
136
*Not guy
The difference is that Win10 & Win11 vulnerabilities get patched.
I don't care whether he gets compromised, I just think he's foolish for believing he's invulnerable and that he'd know immediately if he were compromised.
Apologies. Yes he or she is taking a wild chance in not catching malware designed for W7 that will go unpatched. I see the same fate for Windows 10 in a few years once it become EOL. I was an early adopted of Windows 10. It wasn't as bad as people made it out to be.
 

Kaido

Elite Member & Kitchen Overlord
Feb 14, 2004
48,516
5,333
136
Apologies. Yes he or she is taking a wild chance in not catching malware designed for W7 that will go unpatched. I see the same fate for Windows 10 in a few years once it become EOL. I was an early adopted of Windows 10. It wasn't as bad as people made it out to be.

tbh Windows 11 is pretty mature at this point. I've switched over to it on my main machine & work machine. I still have some systems on Windows 10 & 7 for specific purposes, but 11 is...decent now.
 

Kaido

Elite Member & Kitchen Overlord
Feb 14, 2004
48,516
5,333
136
What's fun is doing updates and rebooting your computers on the other side of the USA and hoping everything comes back up. lol

I wish IP-KVM's were cheaper! Have had some luck with vPro over VNC to the BIOS via VPN tho, but not all computers support that, unfortunately!
 
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Jul 27, 2020
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Why did my DOS need a window?
Because Windows brought an invaluable feature, the BSOD.

Instant panic and sleepless night afterwards, cycling through all possibilities of why it happened. Great stimulation for the brain to keep you on the edge. DOS can't give you that.
 
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mindless1

Diamond Member
Aug 11, 2001
8,153
1,478
126
It is hilarious to me, all the illogical kool aid drinking ignorance in this topic.

OS vulnerabilities are not some kind of OMGWTF DANGER!!!!! scenario. Either they affect you, or they don't. If they do affect you, by all means, patch/upgrade whichever. Details matter. I asked already, for something specific, a specific vulnerability.

What remains, is what your use practices are. Some people aren't safe on any OS, and similarly, no matter how many safety features we put in cars, some people will still manage to wreck.

If you want to trust someone else with your safety, that's subjective. For some people that's a good call but for others, not so much. If your safety is paramount, only a fool trusts someone else to the point of merely installing a newer OS without all the additional safeguards that would keep them just as safe on an older OS... in 99.99% of cases. If you are Putin invading the Ukraine right now, I'd be a little more paranoid... me not so much, even if you have a bunker with the best security in the world, a sufficient force can get in if you make yourself a target.
 

Kaido

Elite Member & Kitchen Overlord
Feb 14, 2004
48,516
5,333
136
*Not guy
The difference is that Win10 & Win11 vulnerabilities get patched.
I don't care whether he gets compromised, I just think he's foolish for believing he's invulnerable and that he'd know immediately if he were compromised.


Man...

A 10-year-old Windows vulnerability is still being exploited in attacks to make it appear that executables are legitimately signed, with the fix from Microsoft still "opt-in" after all these years. Even worse, the fix is removed after upgrading to Windows 11.

On Wednesday night, news broke that VoIP communications company 3CX was compromised to distribute trojanized versions of its Windows desktop application in a large-scale supply chain attack.

As part of this supply chain attack, two DLLs used by the Windows desktop application were replaced with malicious versions that download additional malware to computers, such as an information-stealing trojan.

One of the malicious DLLs used in the attack is usually a legitimate DLL signed by Microsoft named d3dcompiler_47.dll. However, the threat actors modified the DLL to include an encrypted malicious payload at the end of the file.

As first noted yesterday, even though the file was modified, Windows still showed it as correctly signed by Microsoft.
 
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manly

Lifer
Jan 25, 2000
11,291
2,326
136
tbh Windows 11 is pretty mature at this point. I've switched over to it on my main machine & work machine. I still have some systems on Windows 10 & 7 for specific purposes, but 11 is...decent now.
The problem with 11 is twofold. First, 10 has been good for most users so there isn't much impetus to upgrade. IIRC mid-cycle, MS even suggested "10" would be the final OS branding ever and they would just release major upgrades every once in a while. They since reversed course, released 11 and I believe are now talking about 12.

More importantly, MS broke with their long-standing practice and set the minimum supported hardware relatively high. Although it's possible to clean install 11 on unsupported hardware, this will be too much for the average user. Hopefully support will be extended for Windows 10, but I wouldn't hold my breath.
 
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Red Squirrel

No Lifer
May 24, 2003
67,783
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www.anyf.ca
Don't you need a very modern machine for 11? It needs some kind of chip on the motherboard otherwise it won't run. So you need a motherboard that has a special slot for it. Have not looked too much into it myself.