Illinois Gun Control

[fskimospy]

Stop giving people a reason to not go to work. Just a start.

So how do you explain the lack of violence in other areas with more generous social benefits than Chicago? Doesn't seem like much of a start to me, just seems like an ideological statement without grounding in data.

 

[xBiffx]

So how do you explain the lack of violence in other areas with more generous social benefits than Chicago? Doesn't seem like much of a start to me, just seems like an ideological statement without grounding in data.

This thread is about Chicago, so was my comment. Quit moving the goal posts.

 

[fskimospy]

This thread is about Chicago, so was my comment. Quit moving the goal posts.

I don't think you understand what 'moving the goal posts' means. You mentioned an attribute of Chicago that you claim is leading to the violence there. I am noting that the same attribute is present in other areas to an even larger degree, without the corresponding violence. That means it is unlikely that what you are mentioning is a significant driver.

This is just logic.

 

[xBiffx]

I don't think you understand what 'moving the goal posts' means. You mentioned an attribute of Chicago that you claim is leading to the violence there. I am noting that the same attribute is present in other areas to an even larger degree, without the corresponding violence. That means it is unlikely that what you are mentioning is a significant driver.

This is just logic.

I don't think you understand what thread derailment means. This thread is about Illinois (Chicago for the most part).

If you want to discuss issues outside of that, make another thread.

In Chicago, and IL the issue I brought up does have a great deal to do with the violence levels. Many of the areas where the violence goes on are living on the government dime in subsidized housing and food stamps. Don't like it, fine. But derailing the thread with issues outside the topic doesn't change it.

The fact that this doesn't apply to areas outside Chicago/IL shouldn't be shocking or evidence that it isn't happening in Chicago so your point is useless to the topic at hand.

 

[Genx87]

How do you suggest addressing the root causes of the violence?

I'd start with repealing the drug war. Granted that is more on the state level. But clearly enacting more and more gun law has not helped Chicago combat gun violence.

 

[fskimospy]

I don't think you understand what thread derailment means. This thread is about Illinois (Chicago for the most part).

If you want to discuss issues outside of that, make another thread.

In Chicago, and IL the issue I brought up does have a great deal to do with the violence levels. Many of the areas where the violence goes on are living on the government dime in subsidized housing and food stamps. Don't like it, fine. But derailing the thread with issues outside the topic doesn't change it.

I don't think you understand what thread derailment means. Only on ATPN would directly challenging someone's evidence be cited as 'thread derailment'. lol.

You brought up a specific variable and related it to Chicago. I was telling you that your proclamation that this has 'a great deal to do with violence levels' is undermined by the fact that there are other cities in the country and other countries that have the same or more generous housing and food subsidies, but without the violence. This undermines your entire point.

It isn't bringing up other issues, it's saying that your point was shit. If you've got data that shows a correlation between housing and food subsidy generosity and violence, show it.

 

[fskimospy]

I'd start with repealing the drug war. Granted that is more on the state level. But clearly enacting more and more gun law has not helped Chicago combat gun violence.

I agree! In all fairness however this is not something that Chicago itself can do. Not only would it not stop federal enforcement, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if Chicago gets federal funding that is contingent on participation.

Do you have any measures that Chicago itself can undertake that you think would address the violence?

 

[xBiffx]

I don't think you understand what thread derailment means. Only on ATPN would directly challenging someone's evidence be cited as 'thread derailment'. lol.

You brought up a specific variable and related it to Chicago. I was telling you that your proclamation that this has 'a great deal to do with violence levels' is undermined by the fact that there are other cities in the country and other countries that have the same or more generous housing and food subsidies, but without the violence. This undermines your entire point.

It isn't bringing up other issues, it's saying that your point was shit. If you've got data that shows a correlation between housing and food subsidy generosity and violence, show it.

You are trying to say that what's going on in Chicago, isn't, simply because it doesn't go on outside Chicago.

Okay, its not thread derailment. Its just fucking stupid.

 

[fskimospy]

You are trying to say that what's going on in Chicago, isn't, simply because it doesn't go on outside Chicago.

Okay, its not thread derailment. Its just fucking stupid.

You're trying to say that's what's happening in Chicago despite it not being associated with it elsewhere. That's just fucking stupid.

If that is the case, you need to provide evidence for it. You can't just proclaim something.

 

[Genx87]

I agree! In all fairness however this is not something that Chicago itself can do. Not only would it not stop federal enforcement, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if Chicago gets federal funding that is contingent on participation.

Do you have any measures that Chicago itself can undertake that you think would address the violence?

Without turning it into a police state? I am not sure. But my point is banning more guns wont get them any closer to their desired outcome. How did NYC do it 20 years ago?

I think Illinois could pass a law similar to Colorado and Washington that is a step in the right direction. How do these states plan to adhere to federal law? It sounds to me like they arent going to enforce it much at all provided people stay within the confines of state law.

 

[xBiffx]

You're trying to say that's what's happening in Chicago despite it not being associated with it elsewhere. That's just fucking stupid.

If that is the case, you need to provide evidence for it. You can't just proclaim something.

So if something does happen somewhere else then its not happening?

That's your logic?

Google is your friend. If you are really going to say that public housing is not the epicenter of Chicago's violence then I can't help you. Have fun with that fight.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

I've sold two rifle and a pistol. In each case I used this form (www.beararms.com/PDF/FTUP.pdf). It was filled out in duplicate and signed/notarized at the time of the sale. I also kept a photocopy of the buyers drivers license as well. I still maintain this paperwork in my gun safe.

 

[fskimospy]

So if something does happen somewhere else then its not happening?

That's your logic?

Wait, what? Let me break this down for you.

A = high housing/food subsidies
B = violence
C = Chicago
D = New York

Example 1: A + C = B.
Example 2: A + D ~= B.

Your conclusion is A -> B. I am telling you that example 2 throws your logic into doubt. Therefore, you need to provide additional evidence.

 

[xBiffx]

Wait, what? Let me break this down for you.

A = high housing/food subsidies
B = violence
C = Chicago
D = New York

Example 1: A + C = B.
Example 2: A + D ~= B.

Your conclusion is A -> B. I am telling you that example 2 throws your logic into doubt. Therefore, you need to provide additional evidence.

Again, is New York in IL? Didn't think so.

Google Cabrini-Green and tell me that public housing and violence aren't hand in hand in the city of Chicago.
Wait, that's not NY so you must be right about Chicago. Wow you are dense.

 

[fskimospy]

Again, is New York in IL? Didn't think so.

Google Cabrini-Green and tell me that public housing and violence aren't hand in hand in the city of Chicago. Wow you are dense.

Wait, that's not NY so you must be right about Chicago.

Oh my god, you can't be this dumb. Is your argument that housing and food subsidies only lead to additional violence within the Illinois state borders? If so, this is a truly fantastic argument. I'm far more interested in the magical effects of Illinois' borders than whatever other argument you were trying to make.

One of my best friends on the ship used to live right by Cabrini-Green. I used to work in Spanish Harlem. I have seen plenty of subsidized housing. If you're just not interested in trying to resolve the disconnect between your statement and the counter-example I presented you can just say so.

 

[xBiffx]

Oh my god, you can't be this dumb. Is your argument that housing and food subsidies only lead to additional violence within the Illinois state borders? If so, this is a truly fantastic argument. I'm far more interested in the magical effects of Illinois' borders than whatever other argument you were trying to make.

No. But that is the argument you seem to be stuck on and the one you keep trying to refute. Well done. You are that dumb.

Good thing this thread is about IL, as are my comments, and not everywhere else.

But hey, if something isn't happening outside IL, then it just can't be happening in IL. Makes perfect sense, to a retard.

One of my best friends on the ship used to live right by Cabrini-Green. I used to work in Spanish Harlem. I have seen plenty of subsidized housing. If you're just not interested in trying to resolve the disconnect between your statement and the counter-example I presented you can just say so.

Nice anecdote that doesn't prove anything.

 

[fskimospy]

No. But that is the argument you seem to be stuck on and the one you keep trying to refute. Well done. You are that dumb.

Good thing this thread is about IL, as are my comments, and not everywhere else.

But hey, if something isn't happening outside IL, then it just can't be happening in IL. Makes perfect sense, for a retard.

/facepalm

 

[xBiffx]

/facepalm

Yeah, perhaps someday you'll realize that cities/states are different. Until then, I can't be surprised by the response.

 

[jackstar7]

Hey, Biff, is correlation equal to causation?

Because I'm pretty sure that is what you are trying to posit, and what is being disputed.


And yes, context definitely matters. Try using more of it.

 

[xBiffx]

Hey, Biff, is correlation equal to causation?

Because I'm pretty sure that is what you are trying to posit, and what is being disputed.


And yes, context definitely matters. Try using more of it.

You are right, correlation does not imply causation. Pretty hard to not implicate public housing when there is plenty of evidence to do just that.

http://www.marketplace.org/topics/wealth-poverty/there-link-between-housing-policy-and-violence

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2008/07/american-murder-mystery/306872/

http://www.chicagomag.com/Chicago-M...ease-Violent-Crime-Or-Just-Move-It-Elsewhere/

http://chicagood.com/blog/2012/04/c...ase-violent-crime-or-just-moved-it-elsewhere/

http://www.theatlanticcities.com/ho...ata-public-housing-relocation-and-crime/1698/

 

[fskimospy]

You are right, correlation does not imply causation. Pretty hard to not implicate public housing when there is plenty of evidence to do just that.

http://www.marketplace.org/topics/wealth-poverty/there-link-between-housing-policy-and-violence

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2008/07/american-murder-mystery/306872/

http://www.chicagomag.com/Chicago-M...ease-Violent-Crime-Or-Just-Move-It-Elsewhere/

http://chicagood.com/blog/2012/04/c...ase-violent-crime-or-just-moved-it-elsewhere/

http://www.theatlanticcities.com/ho...ata-public-housing-relocation-and-crime/1698/

Do you even read your own links? They are talking about the correlation between poverty and crime, using housing assistance as a proxy. They are not saying that the housing assistance itself is causing the crime.

/double facepalm

 

[Screech]

You are right, correlation does not imply causation. Pretty hard to not implicate public housing when there is plenty of evidence to do just that.

http://www.marketplace.org/topics/wealth-poverty/there-link-between-housing-policy-and-violence

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2008/07/american-murder-mystery/306872/

http://www.chicagomag.com/Chicago-M...ease-Violent-Crime-Or-Just-Move-It-Elsewhere/

http://chicagood.com/blog/2012/04/c...ase-violent-crime-or-just-moved-it-elsewhere/

http://www.theatlanticcities.com/ho...ata-public-housing-relocation-and-crime/1698/

from the second to last link:

Chicago Magazine had an interesting article that explored Hanna Rosin’s fascinating and controversial article in The Atlantic, “American Murder Mystery,” which claims that tearing down public housing in high poverty neighborhoods didn’t decrease cime and poverty but rather pushed it out to the outer neighborhoods and suburbs. Rosin mainly explored Memphis but Chicago Magazine makes a compelling comparison that draws many similarities with Chicago.


Researchers around the country are seeing the same basic pattern: projects coming down in inner cities and crime pushing outward, in many cases destabilizing cities or their surrounding areas. Dennis Rosenbaum, a criminologist at the University of Illinois at Chicago, found that after high-rises came down in Chicago, suburbs to the south and west—including formerly quiet ones—began to see spikes in crime; nearby Maywood’s murder rate has nearly doubled in the past two years.

Its almost as if the public housing has criminals who can move around regardless of if there is public housing or not, which would seem to suggest that public housing is not really a cause of crime but merely a location for it when it is there.....

....which, you know, suggests that eskimopy is correct in saying that public housing is not a cause of crime.......

 

[xBiffx]

Do you even read your own links? They are talking about the correlation between poverty and crime, using housing assistance as a proxy. They are not saying that the housing assistance itself is causing the crime.

/double facepalm

Every one of those links is talking about public housing and crime. Exactly part of what I am talking about.

Back to my first post that started this, now off topic, discussion.

Stop giving people a reason to not go to work. Just a start.

Seems as if though public housing is a reason for people to not go to work. Seems that those links seems to backup a link between public housing and violence.

Fine if you don't like my answer but several posts back and forth have failed to refute my original statement.

It should be pretty common sense that if people are at work then they aren't out gangbanging and committing crime, violent or otherwise. That is off course, not counting workplace violence but we all know that's not the topic here. It should also be common sense that if someone else is paying for your housing and food then you have less reason to go to work.

So again, stop encouraging people by giving them reasons not to go to work as a start to addressing violence.

 

[fskimospy]

Every one of those links is talking about public housing and crime. Exactly part of what I am talking about.

Back to my first post that started this, now off topic, discussion.

And none of those links actually provide any evidence of public housing itself CAUSING that crime. Making you actually provide evidence for your statements continues to be on-topic.

They are talking about how de-concentrating poverty has not had the effects that were hoped for. That's an entirely different argument.

 

[bshole]

It should also be common sense that if someone else is paying for your housing and food then you have less reason to go to work.

And if you don't provide them a means to get housing and food (with jobs), don't be surprised when they murder you and yours and take what you have by violent means. People generally don't starve to death without putting up some kind of fight.

You do realize don't you that there aren't enough jobs to go around??!?!?!?!?!